What if you lose your faith?

[Ferris Bueller]

Now, if you have fake, or half-ass, Christians who are going around doing miracles, even if those miracles are from the devil, you can rest assured the working of those miracles is going to bolster their faith and make them full believers.

Maybe, maybe not. It didn't work that way in Israel when Jesus performed his miracles right before their eyes. The Pharisees looked right in the face of the Holy Spirit testifying about Jesus through his miracles, knowing it was for real, but consciously and knowingly rejecting that testimony. And then there's the 10 lepers who were healed. Only one came back to thank and praise God for their healing.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But you can't say belief is the overarching factor for being accepted into heaven and then say it's actually obedience to God that counts.

I can because the faith that justifies all by itself is the faith that works obedience to God's commands. They are inseparable. Faith and works go hand in hand. What counts is faith. What kind of faith? The faith that works the obedience of love (Galatians 5:6). So it's both. What counts is faith...faith that works. But let's be clear here, it is faith in the blood of Christ all by itself that makes a person righteous. Works are the expected and obligatory outcome of having faith in God and accompany genuine saving faith and validate that faith as being genuine and able to save.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

25Therefore He is able to save completelyd those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them." Hebrews 7:23-25



Thanks for taking the time to explain your Doctrine —- unfortunately, most of it was over my head...lol.....the above verse is what caught my eye though and it seems to bolster my case for the Believer That May have been seduced into the Error Of Unbelief ( an “ Error” That I Believe will be remedied before the End of one’s Faith Walk—Alas , I cant prove that)
Once a person “ turns to God ,with Faith in Jesus Christ, I believe that person has qualified as one that Jesus will “ Save Completely” ..... Jesus is “ Able” to do it , so why “ wouldn’t” He do it? If He “ LIVES” to INTERCEDE , what kind of Interceder would He be if He only did that act for those that really didn’t need it?
It would be like Jesus saying, “ Yeah, I’ll come to your rescue with my role as the “ Intercessor” as long as you don’t actually “ NEED” an Intercessor—- If you really NEED me by doing something terrible — like falling into Unbelief —- forget it , Pal—- I’m outta here! Best of luck ! “
I don’t think that’s the case....The Holy Spirit is supposed to be our “ Helper “ ......Any Believer that falls into doubt and unbelief needs Help.....Plus God has a Promise That He MUST fulfill —- the Onus falls upon HIM to “ FINISH the Work that * HE* started.....Things Got “Started” the moment that the person Believed the Gospel.....God's Word says that ‘ NOTHING in the FUTURE” can take you from His grasp once you have placed your Faith in Jesus to Save you....You get Saved by your Faith in Jesus and sometime “ IN THE FUTURE” you lose that Faith, it would be an act that occurred in the Future and God has it covered with His Promise —- “ Nothing” means Nothing...

 

[GodsGrace]

He's not misunderstanding anything. That's his Ace-in-the-hole, number one, default rebuttal to everything.

If he can't prove you wrong with Scripture, which is 100% of the time, then you are trying to earn salvation somehow. It's literally all he's got.No amount of verses, or repeating of them, will make any difference with this joker.

He's the ultimate example of Matthew 7:6 and Proverbs 29:9-10.

Matthew 7:6
OK but I think we always need to think of those reading along that don't post.
We must keep repeating the truth, regardless.

I like John 13:35 myself - but to some it goes unappreciated.

35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

I've noticed that some OSASers do not show love for their brethren.
Not all.

Some are truly living for the Lord but have this doctrine which is not what Jesus taught - or Paul for that matter.
Some are just deceived and are not disciples of Jesus because they just excuse away all their behavior.

 

[GodsGrace]

25Therefore He is able to save completelyd those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to intercede for them." Hebrews 7:23-25



Thanks for taking the time to explain your Doctrine —- unfortunately, most of it was over my head...lol.....the above verse is what caught my eye though and it seems to bolster my case for the Believer That May have been seduced into the Error Of Unbelief ( an “ Error” That I Believe will be remedied before the End of one’s Faith Walk—Alas , I cant prove that)
Once a person “ turns to God ,with Faith in Jesus Christ, I believe that person has qualified as one that Jesus will “ Save Completely” ..... Jesus is “ Able” to do it , so why “ wouldn’t” He do it? If He “ LIVES” to INTERCEDE , what kind of Interceder would He be if He only did that act for those that really didn’t need it?
It would be like Jesus saying, “ Yeah, I’ll come to your rescue with my role as the “ Intercessor” as long as you don’t actually “ NEED” an Intercessor—- If you really NEED me by doing something terrible — like falling into Unbelief —- forget it , Pal—- I’m outta here! Best of luck ! “
I don’t think that’s the case....The Holy Spirit is supposed to be our “ Helper “ ......Any Believer that falls into doubt and unbelief needs Help.....Plus God has a Promise That He MUST fulfill —- the Onus falls upon HIM to “ FINISH the Work that * HE* started.....Things Got “Started” the moment that the person Believed the Gospel.....God's Word says that ‘ NOTHING in the FUTURE” can take you from His grasp once you have placed your Faith in Jesus to Save you....You get Saved by your Faith in Jesus and sometime “ IN THE FUTURE” you lose that Faith, it would be an act that occurred in the Future and God has it covered with His Promise —- “ Nothing” means Nothing...

Hebrews 7:23-25
22so much the more also Jesus has become the guarantee of a better covenant.

23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.

No matter what post you choose BB, it never says what you think it says.
Those WHO DRAW NEAR TO GOD through Jesus will be saved.
NOT those who walk away from God.
They have lost their security.


BTW, the above also speaks of how the New Covenant is better.
Could you explain the difference between the Old (Mosaic) Covenant and the New Covenant?

Does the OC require obedience and the NC does not?
Or is the difference something else?

 

[GodsGrace]

I do.

But you have this hollow idea that posting verses, is proof.
And its not.
Its rightly dividing the verses, that is the proof, not just posting verses.

I explain every verse I post or underline the critical words.
If it doesn't make sense to you, you should advise me right away...
not in a post like the above where you don't mention the verse I posted that you don't agree with.
There are only 2 or 3 verses in the entire bible that are really difficult to understand - even for theologians -
the verse we're speaking of are not among them and are really simple to understand.
The bible was written under the inspiration of God so that man could come to know Him.
If it takes theologians and "correctly dividing" the word -- then who has the hope of becoming saved from it??

Jesus said that He will give you eternal life if you BELIEVE.
Eternal life is your Salvation.

You post then, some verse about works or water , that you believe is a verse that talks about you trying to keep believing, to try to keep yourself saved.

"born again" is how Jesus says you will go to heaven, because you are already there, in God, if you are born again.
There is no ......trying to work for that...if you have it already.

You dont ever post that verse, and that's a problem., because that means you dont understand it, or you would not be posting verses that talk about works, instead.

Why don't YOU post that verse and then we could discuss it.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There are far too many warnings about avoiding temptations and sin in the Bible for that to be true. The Bible was not written to unbelievers. It was written to Christians. It is a handbook for how to live a successful Christian life.

People who don't own the vehicle aren't going to be walking around reading the owner's manual and stressing about which oil to use or when to do maintenance on a machine they don't even own.

I agree, the Bible is written to Christians. John brings up this matter of identifying the unbelieving, not born again person, not to speak to unbelievers about it, but to warn us Christians about what identifies the unsaved person (1 John 3:7-8). And the thing that identifies them is their lifestyle of sin, because born again people can't continue in their old lives. That means when a suppossed believer does go back to his own life, one of two things is true: Either they were never really born again to begin with, or, they are no longer born again. And thus the reason we are having this discussion about OSAS. I say either one can be true.

So, to stay somewhat in the analogy you used, the Bible is a medical book given to the body of Christ that helps them discern the organisms that are not a part of the body and should be treated accordingly. And of course, it's useful to the body of Christ as an instruction manual of how to maintain the health and wellbeing of the body. And to point, here's some useful instruction about being careful to not slide into unbelief:

"12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a wicked heart of unbelief that turns away from the living God. 13But exhort one another daily, as long as it is called today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness." Hebrews 3:12-13​

 

[GodsGrace]

Nowhere in the NT does God, Christ, Peter, or Paul, tell you that you do anything BUT BELIEVE, if you want God's Salvation.

Jesus said I AM THE WAY to God, ....not your silly self effort and works, GodGrace.

See that CROSS?
That is the WORK that Gets you to heaven, and not yours.

Where does it say that?
Post the verse or verses please.

Here's what I get about good works:
1 John 2:15-17
15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world.
17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.

It states: The one who does THE WILL OF THE FATHER lives forever.

I've spent time sending you many posts to which you don't reply.
This will probably be another one.

If we do not do the will of the Father, can we still expect to be saved?


Also check out
1 John 5:11-12
11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

We are only safe when we are IN CHRIST.
If we do not abide in Him,,,we are in danger.
John 15:6
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.


I don't know what could be more clear than John 15:1-6

 

[GodsGrace]

And who is it that believes?
That would be an unbeliever who is believing, and now has eternal life.

Its also all the born again, who have believed, and so, they have eternal life.

"Jesus said, all that believe in me.....i give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish".

That is believe ONCE, as you then get the Eternal life.,, and after you have believed ONCE< you will never perish.

NO!
Eternal life is for who continues to believe.
Colossians 1:21-23
21And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast,

The above is written to believers.



Paul also wrote the following to believers:
Colossians 3:5-9
5Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.
6For it is because of these things that the wrath of God will come upon the sons of disobedience,
7and in them you also once walked, when you were living in them.
8But now you also, put them all aside: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and abusive speech from your mouth.
9Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him—


What do you suppose all these warnings are for?
If all we had to do was just believe...warnings would not be necessary.

 

[GodsGrace]

Guilty as charged...I show the same “ love” toward modern-day Pharisees as Jesus did to the Pharisees Of HIS day——have I ever called you Leaven- Spreaders and the teachers in here that try to spread False and PERVERTED “Gospels” such “mean” things as “ Snakes” or Broods Of Vipers” Or “Fools”..... how about “ dogs” or “ pigs”........I could go on....
As for Paul , he didn’t say to try to cajole people and beg people to Believe....He didn’t even say to pray for the False Teachers and Spreaders If Leaven.....He said to “ Cast Out” these types.....I have no power to “ cast out” any of the Modern- Day Judaizers That come in here to “ Trouble” Those that try to do as God Commands—- That Command is to REST in the Gospel Of Grace Without “ADDING to it” and thereby not joining theGospel Perverters that have “Fallen From Grace” and don’t even know what that term means.....

Your “sweet and lovable” Jesus is a fiction you and others have created....True Love is not always “ sweet” .....sometimes “ love” is shown by being harsh to wake people up ....you have to look at the Bigger Picture—-Eternal Salvation is at stake!

You're not Jesus.
When we're told to emmulate Him, the above is not what is meant.

You REALLY need to read and understand the NT!
Try John 13:35

 

[GodsGrace]

What I am saying is: Were we sealed with the Holy Spirit upon being baptized with/in water?
J.

Yes. Of course.
But we must also activate the Holy Spirit.

Catholics believe in infant baptism.
However, not every Catholic is going to heaven.
At some point in their adult life they must "activate" the Holy Spirit and live a life for God.

Acts 2:38 would confirm the sealing.

However, I do believe we receive the Holy Spirit upon believing on God and having faith in Him for our salvation.

 

[GodsGrace]

James is teaching that "faith can't save you".
And that's true, unless FAITH died on the Cross for your sin.

So, "dead faith" is not dead salvation, as Faith can't save you, James just told you.

Its really just a very simple understanding..

There is SALVATION< that is is Christ on the Cross , 2000 yrs ago..
He IS Salvation.........its not something we do...its something HE DID, that we receive, as "the GIFT of Salvation".
Once you have it, you become a Son/Daughter of God.
So, that is GOD's PART, not yours.

What is your part.

You are now SAVED.
So, you are now a disciple. And this is Discipleship, which is not SALVATION.
Discipleship is what you do, because you are already saved.
You are to "present your body, as a living sacrifice"....not to BE saved, and not to try to stay saved, but because= you ARE Saved.

I agree with your last paragraph.

But I do not agree with how you understand James 2:16-17
He's plainly saying that if we don't DO SOMETHING to help our neighbor but just give them our blessing,
HOW will this help them?

James is saying we MUST DO SOMETHING.
What is love all about?
If we cannot love our fellow humans enough to do something...
what good is our faith? It is of no use because it is DEAD.

THIS is what James is stating.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If we do not do the will of the Father, can we still expect to be saved?

No, if you understand that the faith that does not keep the commands of God is not genuine faith.

Yes, if you whittle down the will of the Father to only believing in the atonement and ignore all the other things that accompany that believing and which also constitute doing the will of the Father.

Behold embraces the latter. He does not believe the things that accompany salvation have to accompany salvation. But the Bible says the person who does not have that which accompanies salvation is a barren, thorny field that will be burned in the end, not harvested. They have a fake faith. They are not saved. They are not born again:

"8...land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless, and its curse is imminent. In the end it will be burned.9Even though we speak like this, beloved, we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation." Hebrews 6:8-9​

 

[Behold]

Everyone here knows you don't post verses

Did you read my Thread.
It has many verses in it.
Conclusion? You're a liar, Gen2Rev.
Nothing new.

 

[Behold]

No. I'm close to exhausting all the various viewpoints of scripture. Viewpoints that have been taken into consideration and which have brought me to the doctrinal construct I hold today.

The day that you understand that being born again, is why your Salvation is not based on you trying not to lose it, will be the day you understand The Cross.
But not till then.

 

[Behold]

All these promises are true and steadfast for the believing person.

The born again person, has already believed,= and been Justified, and has Salvation, and Eternal life.

If you lose your faith later, is does not matter, regarding your SALVATION>.. as continuing Faith does not save you......God already has.
How does the Christian know?
Because God is in them, and they are in Him.

 

[Behold]

James is saying we MUST DO SOMETHING.

Present your body a living sacrifice.....sure......that is your discipleship that you perform, because you are saved, not to try to be saved or stay saved.

If your works can't save you to begin with..., then not doing any can't cause you to lose Salvation, as salvation is not based on your works.... Its only based on THE CROSS.

 

[Behold]

No, if you understand that the faith that does not keep the commands of God

The only command of God that will secure you as His Son, is that you do the work of God.

"the work of God is that you believe in Jesus, whom God sent".

If you do that work ONE TIME, God will SAVE YOU and keep you saved.

 

[Behold]

Behold embraces the latter. He does not believe the things that accompany salvation have to accompany salvation.

Salvation is Christ on the Cross.
Its not your silly self effort and pride that believes that your works matter.
They do not.

Now if you want to understand that your works, after you are SAVED, is your discipleship, and if you can understand that your discipleship is not your salvation, then you have finally understood The Cross.
You haven't yet, as you are still trying to keep from losing your salvation.

 

[Grailhunter]

@Ferris Bueller @GodsGrace

You all are doing great! Not that they are going to learn anything. Those that hate the truth. They know that the scriptures are their enemy. As you have noted, not to many scriptures to support their beliefs. What Christians should do is use Christ as an example... love God and love one another....be good and do good. You do not see them sighting Christ as their example....Anti-Bible...Anti-Christ.

James was talking truth....Christianity in motion, morality, and character. James was not one of the twelve Apostles but he may of heard Christ's Words regarding the parable of the Sheep and Goats and the Good Samaritan. He understood the most simple message of Christ and it isn't that the OSAS people do not understand this, they stand against Christ and all He stood for, so they have to stand against the scriptures also....Can you imagine believing in a religion that you have to explain away and ignore so many scriptures...it has to be a depressing religion to twist and ignore so many scriptures. A lot of effort to stand against Christ.

In a military court martial you are not sentenced....you are awarded....and what they are going to get....they deserve because they earned it!

How many ways can you go to hell? Unbelief and you can certainly sin your way to hell. But Christ made it clear you can go to hell for not doing Good Deeds....The people in those parables went to hell for not helping those in need. And He made it clear that helping those people who were in need was like helping Him. What we do matters to Christ and what we do, we do to please Him.
I have already posted the scriptures that say we should try to please God.

And you all are doing right as if you are writing to those that read along.....how many people can you save? Seeds....Christ speaks of seeds in the scriptures....and that is why I call my ministry the Johnny Appleseed of Truth. Truth has power...not that we have power, the seed of Truth have power....we sow them and from there it up to the Holy Spirit to inspire the hearts of those that are faithful and seek Truth. Be good and do good.