For Christians still hung up on Evolution...

[BarneyFife]

best available evidence

I'm just curious, my friend, but by what standard do you arrive at this judgment?

I must confess that I, myself, personally, do not have the scientific expertise to make such a claim.

Just sayin'.

 

[GEN2REV]

Grailhunter said: ↑
LOL Scientists are scientists because they believe in science....LOL....can you understand that.



You have given me no reason to think you are stupid.
Christians have been the target of miss information....and because they want to agree with it they swallow it hook line and sinker.
If you are in the field of evolutionary sciences or dating items and that is your actual job working for a university and you say evolution or carbon dating is wrong or does not work....you should consider if they could hold that job long?

If a brain surgeon says brain surgery is wrong or cannot be done...do you think he will have any patients or a hospital that will employ him?

You are saying these are professionals "in their fields" that are saying their fields are wrong. Could they be in those fields?


The love for truth is a wonderful thing....but in motion it is a science...practical methodology.
First you have to get rid of the naïve and then it takes a lot of study of the topic at hand.
I have given you a few examples and they should be ringing a bell.
You are not going to have any professional that denounces his own fields. No more than a preacher that stands up at the podium and says God is fake....how long do you think he will have his job....and what is his intelligent level for him to pick the job as a preacher in the first place.

They don't have to claim that their entire field of expertise is wrong in order to reveal that certain aspects of the information that the common public is getting are not accurate; and I didn't say they claimed their entire fields were wrong.

It is common for these type people to lose their jobs/careers for speaking out, but you can rest assured that is not because they have spoken incorrect information to the public. Scientists fudge, and completely mistake, information that is released all the time. They don't lose their jobs/careers for it. Those who are fired for speaking out are fired because their employers are biased and have an interest in keeping the information released within a set of parameters that are agreed upon by the boards/committees that decide what will be taught and what will be the common conclusions on all matters, etc.

I'm spent on this particular conversation.

 

[GEN2REV]

"For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.” Luke 6:38

You're claiming that this verse says that whatever you believe strongly enough will be "manifest" in your reality.

That is Word of Faith cult doctrine.

That is Prosperity doctrine.

That is Name it, Claim it doctrine.

That is New Age mumbo jumbo.

That is anything-but Biblical.

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm just curious, my friend, but by what standard do you arrive at this judgment?

I must confess that I, myself, personally, do not have the scientific expertise to make such a claim.

Just sayin'.

seems to me that to hold any other theory as a possibility one would basically have to believe that the truth, whatever it is, could remain hidden? I could fill the page with humans who have fur, or birds who evolved a different beak, or supergenes, or wisdom teeth not erupting, or coywolves, but yes i am relying there on the wisdom of others, only tested by crowd wisdom, i think; as i said, anyone with a valid refute—any unknown person or prodigy—can forward it, and subject it to the court of human opinion, and submit evidence for testing, etc.

and you call this a judgement, but really it’s just a definition, unless you have a better one for “theory?” But i think denying that scientific theory moves us forward would have us back in a helio- or even earth-centric universe, which you are surely aware that i cant disprove--the universe might in fact revolve around our sun, or the earth, for all i know—but at the same time i am able to read about the overwhelming forces brought to bear by religion upon those who even suggested otherwise, and i just dont think fascism is the way wadr

 

[bbyrd009]

Grailhunter said: ↑
LOL Scientists are scientists because they believe in science....LOL....can you understand that.



You have given me no reason to think you are stupid.
Christians have been the target of miss information....and because they want to agree with it they swallow it hook line and sinker.
If you are in the field of evolutionary sciences or dating items and that is your actual job working for a university and you say evolution or carbon dating is wrong or does not work....you should consider if they could hold that job long?

If a brain surgeon says brain surgery is wrong or cannot be done...do you think he will have any patients or a hospital that will employ him?

You are saying these are professionals "in their fields" that are saying their fields are wrong. Could they be in those fields?


The love for truth is a wonderful thing....but in motion it is a science...practical methodology.
First you have to get rid of the naïve and then it takes a lot of study of the topic at hand.
I have given you a few examples and they should be ringing a bell.
You are not going to have any professional that denounces his own fields. No more than a preacher that stands up at the podium and says God is fake....how long do you think he will have his job....and what is his intelligent level for him to pick the job as a preacher in the first place.

the beauty of the scientific method is that it was how we came to understand that carbon dating could be off, right?

now, might science be usurped in the short term to fool most of the people, some of the time, for some financial or political gain? Sure; but the truth always seems to out eventually. It becomes…myopic? to believe that “this scientist is a liar” when science provides the framework from which to prove him wrong, doesnt it?

No, i will not accept that the theory of evolution is misplaced simply bc some raging religious fascists in authority have decided that their two-eyed interpretation of Scripture is right, even if i will keep an open mind. The dust of the earth is not like any other dust in the universe, at least so far

 

[bbyrd009]

How else might you guys recommend that we test everything, and keep what is good?

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes.

You would like the OP video if you can find time to watch it.

Lots of great fodder for debating the evil-evolutionists.

this, to me, is the most heinous part; judging someone who holds a different opinion as “evil,” see; i mean why not just not have an opinion? I am not an “evolutionist” just bc i believe the theory might be a valid one, i mean why couldnt Yah be using evolution as a tool, again? Bc Adam and Eve, i guess? lol

those are manifestly, demonstrably not literal people anyway, at least imo

 

[Naomanos]

How many professed Christians still embrace Evolution here?

@ScottA?
@Lifelong_sinner?
@Jim B?
@marks?
@Eternally Grateful?
@BarneyFife?
@TLHKAJ?
@Jennifer Rogers?

*raises hand*

 

[bbyrd009]

You're claiming that this verse says that whatever you believe strongly enough will be "manifest" in your reality.

That is Word of Faith cult doctrine.

That is Prosperity doctrine.

That is Name it, Claim it doctrine.

That is New Age mumbo jumbo.

That is anything-but Biblical.

i would call those misapplications of his point prolly, if i get what he’s saying; there is a sense in which believes all things is manifest due to the beliefs of that person, imo. Does that mean you could get rich by just believing someone or Yah would dump a load of money on you, without you being already generous with the money you have? Name-it-claim-it or Prosperity, iow? Prolly not, huh? But its also hard to deny that some of those guys are getting rich that way, too

 

[ScottA]

You're claiming that this verse says that whatever you believe strongly enough will be "manifest" in your reality.

That is Word of Faith cult doctrine.

That is Prosperity doctrine.

That is Name it, Claim it doctrine.

That is New Age mumbo jumbo.

That is anything-but Biblical.

Those would-be interpretations (and your error of assumption) have nothing to do with what is written, nor is that what I said. But rather that God has stated the terms of what He makes manifest in revelations to our shame.

 

[dhh712]

How many professed Christians still embrace Evolution here?

@ScottA?
@Lifelong_sinner?
@Jim B?
@marks?
@Eternally Grateful?
@BarneyFife?
@TLHKAJ?
@Jennifer Rogers?

I hope these brothers and sisters in Jesus will see the delusion for what it is and deny not the truth of God's word. Evolution is a delusion sent by the Lord to deceive those who do not love the truth. Do you take God's word as the absolute truth or believe something which is stated by by "so-called" science, and that something takes a great deal more faith to believe in way more than believing in God does.

There's so many holes in the theory, but people who don't believe in God love to latch onto that stuff because it directly contradicts God's word and the only way to resolve it is to say that the Creation story was like symbolism or something like that. Just do not fear the rebukes and denigration of those who think you are stupid for not believing in evolution. They have a ton more faith than you do in your belief in the living God.

 

[Naomanos]

I hope these brothers and sisters in Jesus will see the delusion for what it is and deny not the truth of God's word. Evolution is a delusion sent by the Lord to deceive those who do not love the truth. Do you take God's word as the absolute truth or believe something which is stated by by "so-called" science, and that something takes a great deal more faith to believe in way more than believing in God does.

There's so many holes in the theory, but people who don't believe in God love to latch onto that stuff because it directly contradicts God's word and the only way to resolve it is to say that the Creation story was like symbolism or something like that. Just do not fear the rebukes and denigration of those who think you are stupid for not believing in evolution. They have a ton more faith than you do in your belief in the living God.

A delusion to you is real to us. Either way, it is not a salvation issue and one is free to believe in evolution or not. I choose to believe in evolution and that it reconciles with the creation of the world and its inhabitants in Genesis.

 

[bbyrd009]

so in a very real, real-“world” sense, to us, what Scott says is what is true up there, eh? Even if the listing of the errant examples of it are not, or are maybe just bad first tries, or maybe even what was sent as counterfeits, to obscure?

If you dont “believe” in evolution—not even sure what that really means tbh—then you by def must believe the Creation story literally, right? Yah did some winky-wink a la Bewitched to bring Adam and Eve about, iow? Something like that? So fine, spend a whole day believing that; and then spend the whole day tomorrow “believing in” evolution—what changes?

i submit that it is only your pov that changes; that very thing that might need changing the most! So i mean continue to believe what you like—what one says they believe is often/usually at odds with their actions and true beliefs anyway, i guess—but maybe recognize that what you really believe is what you will manifest, and you get what you give away, right?

so, you might die surrounded by food, but it is on you in the end

 

[ScottA]

Pick anything written and turn to the middle and ask yourself, "Is this the middle of every real thing, or is it just the middle of what is written?"

Now consider, "In the beginning was the Word." The point being, history is a word written, having a beginning and an end and a middle, and also that place where we find ourselves. It is written.

Now, imagine there is a book and you are one of the characters in it...and there you are somewhere among the pages-- How would it be if your character declared, "This world in which I am a character is what is "literal" and "real", and this flesh and blood, and the rocks and the trees and everything I woke up in the middle of is "the" "reality", because every fiber of the words written about me is real to me--it's all I know!?" And how would it be if Micky Mouse made the same claim? --Well, Walt Disney would do a double take, laugh, and then shake his head for such a foolish notion.

Can you do that? Can you even look at your written would-be reality with the objectivity of its Creator?

If not--I should have said Daffy Duck, because you have not even perceived that what is written is A STORY...true as it may be. But this sketch pad or snow globe we call the "real" world is only an "aside" of what is really real in God. In which case, you are going to wake up again--either here before the end of the chapter written about you...or when the books are finished, and you fearfully find out just what is actually real with God.

Hello! Any lights coming on?

Now then (pun intended), can we say that a story with a timeline (i.e., storyline) seeming to "evolve" within the pages that are written...actually evolves...or is it rather just unfolding--you know, like a story or something written would naturally do? And if one person read the story and said what they got out of it was a story of millions of years, while another person said they got it was a story about thousands of years, and each calling the other person crazy--who then would actually be crazy? ...Maybe..BOTH..for thinking it was actually real and not a story of revelation brought to unlife-life, "each in his own order" over the seeming reality of time...which doesn't actually exist with God, but was only created?

When you are finished, leave your books at your desk, and report to the Principle's office.

Tomorrow's lesson: The Un-Times of "Today."​

 

[Ronald Nolette]

"...the theory of Evolution is the most fluid, ever-changing theory on the face of the planet."
(48:10)

For honest Christians, this video has the data and the potential to straighten out your entire belief system about the history of man and the earth; aligning it perfectly with that of God's Word.

If you're honest, give it a chance.

I enjoy the work of ICR. they field loads of scientists and answer science falsely so called (evolutionary theory) with true science and then shows how true science lines up with Scripture perfectly as it should!

 

[Grailhunter]

They don't have to claim that their entire field of expertise is wrong in order to reveal that certain aspects of the information that the common public are getting are not accurate; and I didn't say they claimed their entire fields were wrong.

We are in fact talking about very specific field....Whether we are talking about the age of the planet or evolution or dating other things. The "common" public are not knowledgeable of the specifics anyway. I will put together something.

It is common for these type people to lose their jobs/careers for speaking out, but you can rest assured that is not because they have spoken incorrect information to the public. Scientists fudge, and completely mistake, information that is released all the time. They don't lose their jobs/careers for it. Those who are fired for speaking out are fired because their employers are biased and have an interest in keeping the information released within a set of parameters that are agreed upon by the boards/committees that decide what will be taught and what will be the common conclusions on all matters, etc.

This is all wrong.
These are very specific fields.
And you are forgetting that I ran with people like this.
It is called black balling.
No funding, they run you out.
And I can give you examples....
Biological oceanographers and marine biologists....they had a few that said giant squids existed....they were called lunatics and myth chasers. The same thing happed with gorillas and giraffes. These guys found live baby giant squids and then caught a full sized giant squid on a hook and video taped it. No apologies.
Scientists are very defensive about their fields.
Evolution is no longer a theory.

 

[Grailhunter]

Grailhunter’s explanation of the timeline of earth and evolution

A lot of science talk here but it is all based on the concept that it is all God driven. It is still creation by God.

My profession is about science and military. I have been a life long student of the Bible and Theology and that is where my degrees and studies have been.

To begin with this is highly abbreviated to the best of my ability with additional information.

Part of it is theory but it also rules out “some things” What you know is not true, is just as important as what you know is true. For example there is no possibility that the Earth is only 6 thousand years old.

The theory of the existence of dimensional realities; Some are thought to be very different than ours. We exist in what can be referred to as the orb and spiral dimension, everything is round and orbits within spirals within other spirals that move through space. The solar system looks like a large atom, the galaxy looks like a large solar system, the universe looks like a large galaxy. But can you imagine a sun that is a ribbon and planets that are conical and or cylindrical in shape and travel inline with one another? That is straight lines...no orbits. Some theories suggest that. Some believe that Heaven-the Spirit world is a parallel dimension that occupies the same space as ours.

Then you have the Big Bang theory…..Cosmologists--Quantum Science and Astrophysics can not agree on how that all happened. I do not have a specific theory on it, just an observation that goes like this…..Something happened….God driven….at a point in space where everything was projected out in all directions and, it all is still moving away from that central point, expanding. But for the most part that is the end of the topic on theories for this post.

Now how do we know that God is behind all this? Scientist have been building models of the Big Bang for decades....different models. A lot of it is about what it cannot be. But more modern scientists are considering what they call intelligent design. Why? Because of two very important facts.

The Big Bang theory is based on the idea that a super massive blackhole sucked up everything in space and the gravitational forces became so great that it caused a huge explosion beyond all measure and hurled everything out in space. "sucked up everything in space?" OK. Whether it be gases or solids....were did that come from? It had to of come from somewhere. Something from nothing? No. So at some point God had to kick all this off. There is another issue that involves converting matter to energy and back again which also points to God. No explosion could hurl this stuff out and be where it is today in the allotted time frame. So the matter had to be converted to energy and travel at 186, 282 miles per second....lightspeed. And then convert back to all the different types of matter we have today...gases...rock...minerals. Everything in that process was a choice by God. They have nothing on this....they can say, matter converted to energy and then converted back again, easy to say, but they have no idea on how it occurred. Selection and a plan driven by intelligence is the driving force that is pushing the concept of intelligent design and permeates the process of creation and evolution. God is there.

There are several ways to date “things” so do not get hung up on carbon dating.

So…in the beginning…LOL…according to Grailhunter…around 5 or 6 billion years ago Earth was one big hot rock…traveling through space…in a straight line not orbiting anything. As time went on the sun formed and it captured the Earth as it pasted by….gravitational pull.

At that point the Earth is still a hot and shifting rock….no dirt and no sand…no life…no air....just a rock.

And this is where we come up with thousands of preset conditions, choices that had to be made....a plan with thousands of parts that anyone of which if it did not exist would prevent life on Earth. A rotating molten core of the right components that would project the Van Allen Belt....air....atmosphere to encapsulate the air and water. Thousands of things that had to be right. The correct positioning of the moon to make tides. And it takes billions of years for all of this to develop. Christians would like to think God created this more or less in a puff of smoke, but that is more pagan than anything. He says Words and instantly abracadabra alakazam they suddenly appear. But if you look through the Bible Yahweh nor Yeshua walk around making things appear like magic. They do not make 70 year old men 20 again....they work with what they got.

Billons of years later life forms….God driven…amino acids come from something, the basic building blocks of life and it moves forward at the most elementary level. Cells only. Life forms in the oceans first. They live and they die. Later multicellular organisms appear and evolve, and they live and die. Plants appear and evolve and live and die. Then organisms with heads and flippers and when they come out of the ocean, legs and tails. They live and they die.

Billions of years later after the cycle of life and death occurs over and over again the Earth is covered with their bodies-remains…. Their remains become the dirt that covers the Earth. Dirt is not just mineral, it is mostly organic. Same thing with oil and natural gases.

Then about 2.5 million years ago a lineage of apes appear that will evolve to be humans. Now science does not have all the answers because around 70,000 years ago God hit the throttle on evolution...after a worldwide disaster that should have killed them all off. This accelerated evolving process did not happen for the rest of the animals. It is a selection and human evolution shot forward maybe a million times faster than the animals.

As it is now, they have more than they can handle as far as fossil evidence. Evolution is a fact but they are still trying to piece it together. We have a full record of the evolutionary progression of man…but science is still trying to figure out how it all happened. Christians get hung up on carbon dating but that is just the start of many ways to date the millions of very old fossils and even triangulate between methods. It is complicated for sure.

The details of this I have provided below. Strangely enough under certain circumstances Carbon dating can only go back so far…. because of the changes to our atmosphere caused my nuclear testing, the nuclear bombing of Japan, and Chernobyl. Fossils that are buried deep in the ground and not exposed to the air can still be carbon dated. But then like I said there are other ways to date them.

Of course the Bible only people are going to take exception to all this because this is not how it is explained in the Bible....but could God have explained this a primitive people? And what I have written here is an extremely simplified version of it. Even today, if God tried to explain it to us, it would probably be over our heads.

Carbon dating in detail
Radiocarbon dating - Wikipedia

Carbon dating equipment
https://www.radiocarbon.com/accelerator-mass-spectrometry.htm

Many labs now use an Accelerator Mass Spectrometer (AMS), a machine that can detect and measure the presence of different isotopes, to count the individual 14C atoms in a sample.

Carbon dating rocks
Stratigraphy is a branch of geology concerned with the study of rock layers (strata) and layering (stratification). It is primarily used in the study of sedimentary and layered volcanic rocks.

Together with stratigraphic principles, radiometric dating methods are used in geochronology to establish the geologic time scale. Among the best-known techniques are radiocarbon dating, potassium–argon dating and uranium–lead dating.

Carbon dating dinosaur fossils
https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/dating-rocks-and-fossils-using-geologic-methods-107924044/

What are the 3 ways to date fossils?
It's All Relative. One way of dating fossils relies on their relative positions in the ground. ...
Sedimentary Sleuths. When fossils are buried one on top of another, it is easy to arrange them in chronological order. ...
Clocks In Rocks. ...
Radiocarbon Dating. ...
On The Level. ... Ground levels show dates using more than on sample and different items at the same level
Ash Analysis.
Different Techniques for Dating Fossils | AMNH

Carbon dating labs
Laboratories | RADIOCARBON

 

[GEN2REV]

Evolution is no longer a theory.

At long last.

They've been proving it wrong left and right for decades.

Thought they would never dismiss it as a valid scientific possibility.

That day has finally come.

 

[Grailhunter]

At long last.

They've been proving it wrong left and right for decades.

Thought they would never dismiss it as a valid scientific possibility.

That day has finally come.

Well I am well versed with the Bible only.....spend most of my time in church with them.....so I will not hold it against you.
My ministry is to give the truth....Johnny Appleseed of Truth....from there it is up to you and God.

 

[BarneyFife]

seems to me that to hold any other theory as a possibility one would basically have to believe that the truth, whatever it is, could remain hidden? I could fill the page with humans who have fur, or birds who evolved a different beak, or supergenes, or wisdom teeth not erupting, or coywolves, but yes i am relying there on the wisdom of others, only tested by crowd wisdom, i think; as i said, anyone with a valid refute—any unknown person or prodigy—can forward it, and subject it to the court of human opinion, and submit evidence for testing, etc.

and you call this a judgement, but really it’s just a definition, unless you have a better one for “theory?” But i think denying that scientific theory moves us forward would have us back in a helio- or even earth-centric universe, which you are surely aware that i cant disprove--the universe might in fact revolve around our sun, or the earth, for all i know—but at the same time i am able to read about the overwhelming forces brought to bear by religion upon those who even suggested otherwise, and i just dont think fascism is the way wadr

Fascism - lol - You slay me, Bb!