Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
One must have the Spirit in order to discern what is truth and what is not, so, yes, you have to be truly saved (have the Holy Spirit in you) to, ultimately, know what is truth and what is not.
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Jim B
Well-Known Member
This shows your faulty interpretation of Scripture.
Roams 14:5 is discussing regarding one day holier than other days. "One person regards one day holier than other days, and another regards them all alike. Each must be fully convinced in his own mind." It is not talking about the interpretation of Scripture. Yours is a bizarre misinterpretation!
1 Timothy 6:20-21a, "O Timothy, protect what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the profane chatter and absurdities of so-called “knowledge.” By professing it, some have strayed from the faith." Clearly this applies to you and your so-called "knowledge", which is actually delusion.
1 Corinthians 2:4-5, " My conversation and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not be based on human wisdom but on the power of God." Your interpretation of Scripture is "human wisdom", not the truth of Scripture. You are convinced in your own mind (only) that you are infallible. That is a strong delusion!!!
Job 11:11-12, "For he knows deceitful men;
when he sees evil, will he not consider it?
But an empty man will become wise,
when a wild donkey’s colt is born a human being."
You are filled with self-deceit, an empty man.
"Study the King James Bible with the mind of a fool and get some spiritual wisdom." I'll leave studying the KJV to you. You will never have spiritual wisdom; you are self-deceived.
Here are verses that apply to you and your self-deception...
1 Corinthians 3:18a, "Guard against self-deception, each of you.' By relying on your own interpretation, you are clearly deceiving yourself! Why do you think that you have all knowledge? You are clearly deceived, since you have no external evidence to justify your interpretation. It's all in your fallible mind!!!
1 Samuel 21:14-15a, " Achish said to his servants, “Look at this madman! Why did you bring him to me? Do I have a shortage of fools so that you have brought me this man to display his insanity in front of me?"
Psalm 49:13, "This is the destiny of fools, and of those who approve of their philosophy."
Psalm 94:8, "Take notice of this, you ignorant people. You fools, when will you ever understand?"
Proverbs 1:22, "“How long will you simpletons love naiveté? How long have mockers delighted in mockery? And how long will fools hate knowledge?"
Proverbs 8:5, "You who are naive, discern wisdom! And you fools, understand discernment!"
Proverbs 10:21, "The teaching of the righteous feeds many, but fools die for lack of sense."
Proverbs 13:20, "The one who associates with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm." This applies to textual criticism!!
Proverbs 14:8, "The wisdom of the shrewd person is to discern his way, but the folly of fools is deception."
Proverbs 14:33, "Wisdom rests in the heart of the discerning; it is not known in the inner parts of fools."
Ecclesiastes 5:4b, "For God takes no pleasure in fools"
Ecclesiastes 7:5, "It is better for a person to receive a rebuke from those who are wise than to listen to the song of fools."
(Better read that one again!!!)
Ecclesiastes 10:12, "The words of a wise person win him favor, but the words of a fool are self-destructive."
(Better read that one again also!!!)
Jeremiah 50:36a, "Destructive forces will come against her false prophets; they will be shown to be fools!"
Romans 1:2, "Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools".
(Better read that one again also!!!)
1 Corinthians 1:25, "For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength."
(Better read that one again also!!!)
1 Corinthians 2:4-5, " My conversation and my preaching were not with persuasive words of wisdom, but with a demonstration of the Spirit and of power, so that your faith would not be based on human wisdom but on the power of God."
1 Corinthians 12:8, "For one person is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, and another the message of knowledge according to the same Spirit" Too bad you missed out on both!!!
I believe what the Word of God clearly teaches, not your fallible, personal interpretation of a 411-year-old mediocre translation.
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
No. Eventually, their growth in Christ may allow them to teach the faith infallibly.
The members of Christ, including those in authority, learn the truth via the discernment of the Holy Spirit that all believers have within themselves. Even leaders have to grow up into the knowledge and stature of Christ. They have to be taught, too. It's just that they may have a special spiritual capacity to know and discern more truth than others. All of this is by design so that all members of the body of Christ, the church, will need each other, thus encouraging unity:
18But in fact, God has arranged the members of the body, every one of them, according to His design. 19If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20As it is, there are many parts, but one body.21The eye cannot say to the hand, “I do not need you.” Nor can the head say to the feet, “I do not need you.”
25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its members should have mutual concern for one another.
1 Corinthians 12:18-25
25so that there should be no division in the body, but that its members should have mutual concern for one another.
1 Corinthians 12:18-25
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
It is a biblical principle that can be used as an example for other points of contention.
You don’t get it.
As for the rest of your very long post, shorten it up. I got better things to read like my King James Bible than all of that hot air.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
"He" who?
I quoted @Michiah-Imla to show that ad hominems are blind weapons swung blindly. "You are stubborn!" "No, you are the stubborn one!" "No, you are!" "You are!" And on it goes.
Personally what I see in this behavior is primarily self affirmation.
It's a form of self-promotion to declare the attitudes and ideas and unspoken fears of others. To declare them, and judge them, and go on and on about how you actually know them, yes, you know others, even better than themselves, and will tell all about it.
This is NOT manly.
Trying to make someone appear deficient is a way to make yourself feel less deficient. Judging others is all about that. Claiming knowledge of others that you don't actually possess is all about that. Self-affirmation.
If someone challenges another in their passive self-affirmations, since this is actually an example of "pulling yourself up by putting another down", then the next self affirmation will be to attack that challenge, and discredit it. If you can show that someone is simply becoming offended when confronted with "truth" then you can preserve your illusion, and self-affirmation. “I'm not wrong, you're just offended at truth!” That's just more ad hominem.
True humility does not require self-affirmations, and therefore is not driven to lash out at others. That sudden rush of emotional energy is a big clue. When the typos come fast and furious that's a real give-away.
So much of what is labeled "rebuke" on this forum appears to me to be underhanded ways of subverting discussions. Presumptuous things spoken with hushed reverence against the children of God.
So for myself, I like to stick to discussing Scripture, particularly with those who seem driven to make others look bad so they can discredit what they are saying. That just turns into a big distraction, and get's boring, really.
And it's not spiritually healthy for the person to engage in that behavior, it should not be encouraged.
There is a place for rebuke, but not as a debating tactic.
I've always like the definition of meekness I heard many years ago, "power under control". That's manly.
Much love!
Ferris Bueller
Well-Known Member
The church can't teach lies? It isn't that churches are teaching lies so much as it is that we're all, including leadership, growing up into the knowledge of God. It's a process:
"15All of us who are mature should embrace this point of view. And if you think differently about some issue, God will reveal this to you as well. 16Nevertheless, we must live up to what we have already attained." Philippians 3:15-16
"2I urge Euodia and Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord." Philippians 4:2
"2I urge Euodia and Syntyche to agree with each other in the Lord." Philippians 4:2
You seem to attend a different church than that which is portrayed in scripture, as I'm making abundantly clear.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
All of this:
What book or man taught you these sayings?
Do you not agree? A lifetime of learning has taught me these things. But a man is either loving others or loving himself, and he betrays himself with his words.
Here's another saying . . . Hurt people hurt people.
We want acceptance, approval, and either we feel like we have that, or we are trying some way to get that. We are accepted in the Beloved, and if this can be enough, then we won't need to lord over others.
What book? For the last 20+ years, I've not read very many books aside from the Bible, which I read every day, generally several servings per day.
When a man calls you a fool . . . often as not it's because he considers himself wise, and offers this to himself for evidence. "After all, I'm wise enough to see that man is a fool!"
Is there a place for rebuke? Of course there is. Is that place amongst virtual strangers on an online forum? I doubt it. Certainly not the way I see that hammer being swung around.
Much love!
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Which is why I base my words on the Bible.
This is not a biblical proverb.
The word of God is a weapon to pummel heresies to pieces, and if someone spreads unbiblical philosophies publicly they should be rebuked publicly:
“Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.” (1 Timothy 5:20)
Fear what? Fear public shaming.
Yes, I strive to show myself approved unto God!
“Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.” (2 Timothy 2:15)
I rightly disperse the scriptures against subversive people.
Good man!
I don’t.
“But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?” (Galatians 2:14)
sometimes though, @marks some of us who are rebuking and reproofing others are not in it for self affirmation, but rather to trying to warn others from falling into the same pitfalls we ourselves are fell into and do so out of humility, instead of self affirmation. Perhaps our communication methods are not the best, and perhaps our frustration elevates the discussion to debate, but any discussion or more properly fellowship is a give and take, We must be willing to receive rebuke as much as receiving encouragement and the truly wise love rebuke because it makes them wiser....
Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee. Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning. (Proverbs 9:8-9)
Your "self-affirmation" argument can be a defense mechanism that does not allow you to be self-reflective, and or able to receive teaching (Unteachable spirit). I do not agree with everything @Michiah-Imla says but he made a valid point in the post i quoted of his that some have a hard time receiving, because it requires us to have humility in the strength of our human understanding.
In person, among those who actually know each other, who have actually personal knowledge.
Yes, the Word of God is a hammer that smashes into pieces, but let not every man who has an impulse in their mind think they wield God's hammer in their faulty and misguided personal opinions of others whom they've never even met in person.
The fact is, I see this understanding well represented in the Bible, in the descriptions of people's actions and words and motives.
Here, Peter, I would suggest that he was wanting the affirmations of the Jews who came from James, and therefore were seeking to see the other Jews walking after the Law and the traditions of the elders. Separating from Gentiles.
He wanted their approval.
Yes, but if it is in truth. And let's be real. These kinds of words are primarily used in debates where someone is running out of argmuments, or patience, or is just getting a little miffed.
Ever notice how these "rebukes" seem to often be filled with typos? It's because it's not coming from the Spirit, instead, from the rising ire of the flesh. We betray ourselves in our words. Out of control speech is a dead giveaway. And inaccurate speech is also.
Amen!! And Amen!!!!!
When we find our approval from God, when all we care about is being approved by Him, that removes all the emotional energy that tends to drive some in these direction.
If we feel like we have something to prove to others, then try we shall!
Much love!
There are characteristics of true communication that will be woefully lacking in these such cases. Yes, both circumstances may be true, and perhaps I am given you valid wisdom which you are unwilling or unable to receive.
You see, we are truly limited by a typing only internet forum.
"You statements" will never be anything more than that, and will suffer the limitations of the venue. You are this, you are that, you you you, chasing after wind.
Instead of just declaring someone unteachable, show the teaching, make the presentation from the Bible. What's wrong with that?
For myself, I'm never unwilling to believe what the Bible teaches.
"Self-affirmations", I agree, are a defense mechanism, where a person chooses to shield themself instead of engaging in opportunities to grow, whether in understanding or in character. "Rather than risk coming to see I'm wrong, I'll just shut you down with, 'Oh, don't get all offended'", or whatever it is. Often written with many typos, as the emotional energy comes through.
That can be a good thing, but assuming that someone else is in the same circumstance or development is often a case of projecting. This is particularly true when a person has very limited knowledge of the other.
1 Corinthians 13:4-7 KJV
4) Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5) Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7) Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
Believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Thinks no evil.
This is some core level thinking we are to have, and the stream flows in an entirely different bed.
Much love!
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
I don’t make personal opinions of others.
I address what they say when it’s unbiblical. And if they want to get nasty with me I’ll bring out the big guns of scripture on them.
I’m not weary in defending the truth and certainly don’t care what people think of me.
“If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you.” (John 15:18)
“Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.” (1 John 3:13)
“The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.” (John 7:7)
If you have very little haters against you you’re probably compromised in the faith.
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
@marks
Let me correct that:
I usually avoid personal opinions, but at times I may offer my observation on what their behavior “fruits” are revealing about themselves.
Something here, and please don't receive this in a negative way, or feel you must respond, I pray you hear me in this.
What you say is so very true, our communication methods can be ineffective or worse, our negative emotional energy, such as in frustration (helpless anger) can rise, negatively impacting our communications. We need to be aware of ourselves, and the signs that we've stopped walking in the Spirit, and have returned to walking according to flesh. These kinds of negative emotional states can show us our state in living.
When we find we are not communicating, when we find our negative emotional energy rising, perhaps that's a sign to step back, to re-center ourselves in God, in the Holy Spirit, in His Word.
Along with learning to hear others, we need to learn to hear ourselves.
Much love!
Yes, thank you! I expect you are talking about something someone wrote, something specific, rather than like, "You're just being dense", or something like that, right?
Much love!
Michiah-Imla
Well-Known Member
Yes.
Right.
Standing for the truth of God will attract all kinds of unkind and blasphemous replies. I’m ready for it and am not shy to dish it back out.
Paul called the high priest a “whited wall” when he stood in judgment
“…God shall smite thee, thou whited wall: for sittest thou to judge me after the law, and commandest me to be smitten contrary to the law?” (Acts 23:3)
Which echoes Christ’s own words:
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.” (Matthew 23:27)
And of course Paul had to quickly correct himself. He spoke without realizing that if he had known who he was speaking of, he wouldn't have said what he said. He spoke in ignorance, but then received correction.
When we speak in ignorance . . . well, can we avoid speaking in ignorance? And if we find we have, can we be man enough to admit it, and accept correction?
Much love!
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