The word “HAS”

[RichardBurger]

Well said. A brother told me the same thing using different words; the verses that seem certain speak of God's faithfulness to us, that verses that leave it open for choice talk about our faithfulness, which we are free to continue in or leave.

For example, Jesus says that NONE given to him will be snatched out of his hands. And yet many willfully walk away from him!

Name one! You do not know the relationship that a child of God has with the Father and yet you judge as if you did.

God is certainly more powerful than you and He will keep His children by His power.

But to believe He does demands faith in Him and you obviously do not have that faith.

 

[Prentis]

So you ignore the word HAS and proclaim the word IF. This shows that you have no belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. To you it is all about your working for salvation and you discount the work of Jesus on the cross. God will deal with the self-righteous in His own time.

Quite the opposite once again.

We say 'yes, God HAS, thus now IF we...' The word says both, thus we believe both.

The word says both, you only believe the one that advantages you. Tell me then, to what end are you using the scriptures?

To justify and save your own skin. Which the Lord tells us we can't do!

Name one! You do not know the relationship that a child of God has with the Father and yet you judge as if you did.

God is certainly more powerful than you and He will keep His children by His power.

But to believe He does demands faith in Him and you obviously do not have that faith.

Ananias and Saphira, if you must have an example. They disobeyed. But hey, when Jesus says 'he who denies me before, I will deny him before my Father' he doesn't really mean it. He actually means 'He who is truly saved, I will accept, but he who is not truly saved, I will deny before my Father'. It's a wonder how unclear Jesus sometimes is! ;) :blink:

Whether my faith is sufficient, I cannot judge, and my race is not over, and so I will let the Lord judge this matter.

But you reveal yourself to do what you accuse others of. I have not judged you, but have judged your doctrine, which is against the gospel. On the other hand, you judge me. :)

Faith requires obedience, as it says, 'faith without works is dead'.

 

[Insight]

So you ignore the word HAS and proclaim the word IF. This shows that you have no belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. To you it is all about your working for salvation and you discount the work of Jesus on the cross. God will deal with the self-righteous in His own time.

Hi Richard

I am not against you! And you need not speak in extremes..its like lying.
We both know the warnings ("if's") far out way the "Has's" because of flesh and blood and our bias to sin.

Is this true?

 

[Insight]

Richard,

If its any consolation I have a number of examples of believers who have crucified the Master afresh. Heb 6:6

Some have since died (of my family) not returning to the faith.

While some I am currently working on at present in the hope they will return.

The "if's" are there to remind us strongly of our free will, which if not used correctly can result in us not glorifying our Father and dishonouring the Son.

Hence, the Apostles were very careful to provide a balanced message when speaking of salvation.

We ought to follow thier example.

I will leave you with a special verse one which exemplifies a faithful llife.

To them (Richard & Prentis) who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom 2:7

Insight

 

[Helen]

Actually, according to Scripture, there is. The problem here is that you misunderstand what that means. As a matter of fact, there is a past, present, and future aspect to salvation. Progressive salvation, as some call it, is simply the believers walk of faith between conversion and death. Future salvation refers to the believer's exemption from the "wrath to come" on the day of judgement.

Past:
“For in this hope we were saved” (Rom. 8:24)
“By grace you have been saved” (Eph. 2:5, 8)
“By his mercy he saved us” (Titus 3:5).

Present:
"but to us who are being saved" (1 Cor. 1:18)
“Through which [gospel] you are being saved” (I Cor. 15:2)
“Those who are being saved” (II Cor. 2:15).

Future:
“How much more shall we be saved?” (Rom. 5:9)
“now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. (Rom. 5:10)

Excellent Amen...well said.

 

[RichardBurger]

Quite the opposite once again.

We say 'yes, God HAS, thus now IF we...' The word says both, thus we believe both.

The word says both, you only believe the one that advantages you. Tell me then, to what end are you using the scriptures?

To justify and save your own skin. Which the Lord tells us we can't do!



Ananias and Saphira, if you must have an example. They disobeyed. But hey, when Jesus says 'he who denies me before, I will deny him before my Father' he doesn't really mean it. He actually means 'He who is truly saved, I will accept, but he who is not truly saved, I will deny before my Father'. It's a wonder how unclear Jesus sometimes is! ;) :blink:

Whether my faith is sufficient, I cannot judge, and my race is not over, and so I will let the Lord judge this matter.

But you reveal yourself to do what you accuse others of. I have not judged you, but have judged your doctrine, which is against the gospel. On the other hand, you judge me. :)

Faith requires obedience, as it says, 'faith without works is dead'.

Ananias and Saphira were under the Law of Moses. The 12 never preached grace. If you think they did then show the scriptures.

You judged that what I believe to be against the gospel many times.

I said that if you do not believe the shed blood of Jesus on the cross pays for ALL your sins then you have no faith in the shed blood to pay for your sins. That is a fact that shows through in all your writtings because you say you must keep yourself saved by what YOU do.

Again I ask """""what do you teach as obedience?"""""" I have stated that obedience under grace is keeping your faith in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross and you say that is not enough. So tell me what you see as obedience. If it is legalism then you are not proclaiming the grace of God but law.

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard,

If its any consolation I have a number of examples of believers who have crucified the Master afresh. Heb 6:6

Some have since died (of my family) not returning to the faith.

While some I am currently working on at present in the hope they will return.

The "if's" are there to remind us strongly of our free will, which if not used correctly can result in us not glorifying our Father and dishonouring the Son.

Hence, the Apostles were very careful to provide a balanced message when speaking of salvation.

We ought to follow thier example.

I will leave you with a special verse one which exemplifies a faithful llife.

To them (Richard & Prentis) who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom 2:7

Insight

You have no proof that they were ever a Christain. Many proclaim Jesus but most are like others on this forum and show that they have no faith in what Jesus did but place their faith in their doing works.

I proclaim that IF a person does not believe they have been made a child of God by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross then they are not a child of God and never have been.

You mentioned the 12 Apostles so you must believe that what they wrote was to you. Well it wasn't. It was for the Jews who were still under the Law of Moses. Jesus never reciended the Law of Moses. --- Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles (and anyone else that would look to the cross) and he is my Apostle. What he wrote is for me since I am a Gentile. --- the RCC built their church on the wrong Apostle.

Before going off the deep end saying I am against the 12 realize that I did not say that. They, the 12, spent their time trying to convience the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah and king so He could come back and set up the Jewsish kingdom. They never preached salvation by grace and never mentioned the cross except that the Jews should repent of Killing Jesus.

 

[gregg]

to seperate the apostles and only follow the apostle you think is just for you (gentile or jew) would be like asking God to only hold you accountable for only part of the gospel.JESUS was sent to the jews so do we adhere to his sayings or just pauls?

 

[Insight]

You have no proof that they were ever a Christain. Many proclaim Jesus but most are like others on this forum and show that they have no faith in what Jesus did but place their faith in their doing works.

I proclaim that IF a person does not believe they have been made a child of God by placing their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross then they are not a child of God and never have been.

Matt 22:14

You mentioned the 12 Apostles so you must believe that what they wrote was to you. Well it wasn't. It was for the Jews who were still under the Law of Moses. Jesus never reciended the Law of Moses. --- Jesus sent Paul to the Gentiles (and anyone else that would look to the cross) and he is my Apostle. What he wrote is for me since I am a Gentile. --- the RCC built their church on the wrong Apostle.

Before going off the deep end saying I am against the 12 realize that I did not say that. They, the 12, spent their time trying to convience the Jews that Jesus was their Messiah and king so He could come back and set up the Jewsish kingdom. They never preached salvation by grace and never mentioned the cross except that the Jews should repent of Killing Jesus.

Some things are too weird to address and your comments fall well within this scope.

2 Tim 3:15,16 "ALL SCRIPTURE"

 

[Nomad]

The 12 never preached grace. If you think they did then show the scriptures.

Really? Notice what Peter says in in the last verse of the following pericope.

Act 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Act 15:2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.
Act 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.
Act 15:4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."
Act 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.
Act 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."


Here's one more that clearly demonstrates that the Apostles were not under the Law post resurrection.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

 

[prism]

He is the saviour, He gives grace, by Him we are reconciled, by His power we walk. But we walk. The danger is when we look at what God does and say 'I don't have to do anything'.

Colossians 1:24
I now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up in my flesh what is lacking in the afflictions of Christ, for the sake of His body, which is the church,

If WE suffer with him, we will also be glorified with him. Christ is given us as an example. Jesus says 'Abide in me, and I in you', and James says 'draw near to him, and he will draw near to you'. We have a part to play!

A true Christian born of God will not look at what God has done for him and then say ''I don't have to do anything'.. He has new desires by the Spirit Who's love is shed abroad in his heart. He will want to please God and try to (even in his own strength unfortunately). He may fail and even grow cold but it is the Spirit's comforting, rebuking and even chastising that keeps his child on the path...not the self efforts of the believer.
...For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(Tit 2:11-13)

 

[RichardBurger]

Really? Notice what Peter says in in the last verse of the following pericope.

Act 15:1 But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
Act 15:2 And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question.
Act 15:3 So, being sent on their way by the church, they passed through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and brought great joy to all the brothers.
Act 15:4 When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they declared all that God had done with them.
Act 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."
Act 15:6 The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter.
Act 15:7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.
Act 15:8 And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Act 15:9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.
Act 15:10 Now, therefore, why are you putting God to the test by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples that neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."


Here's one more that clearly demonstrates that the Apostles were not under the Law post resurrection.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Show me where the 12 preached salvation to the Gentiles based on the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. You look at these verses to indicate that the 12 were preaching Paul's gospel but if that is true why was Paul there in the first place?

If what you say is true then show where James said the Jews were no longer under the Law of Moses. He agreed that the Gentiles did not have to keep the Law but even in Acts 21 we see where the Jews were under the Law. In Acts 21 we see the Jews all upset with what Paul was teaching "that the Jews did not have to keep the Law." In Acts 21 we see James and the elders trying to get Paul back under the Law of Moses but God did not allow that attempt to be finalized.

I am surprised that you quote Romans 1:16 since you do not believe we are saved and kept saved by the power of God (see thread "The Power of God") in which you say we are to keep ourselves saved by our own power. LOL

 

[Nomad]

I am surprised that you quote Romans 1:16 since you do not believe we are saved and kept saved by the power of God (see thread "The Power of God") in which you say we are to keep ourselves saved by our own power. LOL

Where did I say any such thing? Show me.

Show me where the 12 preached salvation to the Gentiles based on the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

I already did. Once again, here are the words of the Apostle Peter:

Act 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.

 

[RichardBurger]

A true Christian born of God will not look at what God has done for him and then say ''I don't have to do anything'.. He has new desires by the Spirit Who's love is shed abroad in his heart. He will want to please God and try to (even in his own strength unfortunately). He may fail and even grow cold but it is the Spirit's comforting, rebuking and even chastising that keeps his child on the path...not the self efforts of the believer.
...For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(Tit 2:11-13)

A true Christian will understand that his/her works a Christian does not make!

A child of God knows him/her self and knows that his/her works can not save them any more than the works of the self-righteous Pharisees saved them. The child of God knows that there is nothing they can do to earn salvation and after obtaining salvation there is still nothing they can do to keep it.

A true child of God gives Jesus ALL the glory but you want to claim your works to glorify man. IMHO you think you ought to be able to share it.

You do not teach that the Holy Spirit that is in the child of God brings about good works. You teach that man must, by his own power, do good works to be saved and keep saved. You are just teaching a works based salvation.

You claim your works and from what you write I can't see any. You never teach the gospel that saves a person by their faith in what Jesus did on ther cross and when I do it you are there to shut it down.

 

[Prentis]

Ananias and Saphira were under the Law of Moses. The 12 never preached grace. If you think they did then show the scriptures.

You judged that what I believe to be against the gospel many times.

I said that if you do not believe the shed blood of Jesus on the cross pays for ALL your sins then you have no faith in the shed blood to pay for your sins. That is a fact that shows through in all your writtings because you say you must keep yourself saved by what YOU do.

Again I ask """""what do you teach as obedience?"""""" I have stated that obedience under grace is keeping your faith in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross and you say that is not enough. So tell me what you see as obedience. If it is legalism then you are not proclaiming the grace of God but law.

Is it legalism to say we must follow Christ?

You say you trust in the shed blood, but by that very thing you show that you have faith in your faith, rather than in God. You trust your faith to save you! You trust your own believing will apply Jesus' blood to you.

But God applies mercy to who we will, we cannot judge who enters, he does! We have faith in him, that if we obey, he will lead us in the straight path.

On obedience.
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Obedience leads to righteousness. Could it be? ;)

[sup]12[/sup] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. [sup]13[/sup] Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, [sup]14[/sup] I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
[sup]15[/sup] Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. [sup]16[/sup] Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[sup][b][/sup] let us be of the same mind.

We attain? We press on? We lay hold? We apprehend? We reach forward?

Yes! The call of God is upward, that is, it calls us to a higher standard of righteousness, not no righteousness! You believe that Christ has laid hold of something for us, but you don't believe we are to lift a pinky to lay hold of it (you call that works)! Yet Paul gave EVERYTHING to attain it! By this your doctrine reveals to be opposite to the Gospel.

 

[RichardBurger]

Is it legalism to say we must follow Christ?

You say you trust in the shed blood, but by that very thing you show that you have faith in your faith, rather than in God. You trust your faith to save you! You trust your own believing will apply Jesus' blood to you.

But God applies mercy to who we will, we cannot judge who enters, he does! We have faith in him, that if we obey, he will lead us in the straight path.

On obedience.
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Obedience leads to righteousness. Could it be? ;)

[sup]12[/sup] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. [sup]13[/sup] Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, [sup]14[/sup] I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
[sup]15[/sup] Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. [sup]16[/sup] Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[sup][b][/sup] let us be of the same mind.

We attain? We press on? We lay hold? We apprehend? We reach forward?

Yes! The call of God is upward, that is, it calls us to a higher standard of righteousness, not no righteousness! You believe that Christ has laid hold of something for us, but you don't believe we are to lift a pinky to lay hold of it (you call that works)! Yet Paul gave EVERYTHING to attain it! By this your doctrine reveals to be opposite to the Gospel.

Faith in my faith you say! Rubbish! I truely believe, have faith, trust, and confidenc IN THE WORK OF GOD ON THE CROSS to save and keep me and then you say I have faith in my faith. Your words are just rubbish. I plainly say what I mean and then you say I am saying something else. You wouldn't be trying to put words in my mouth would you. To do that is to bear false witness against me but that is okay many did it to Jesus and they did it to Paul and here you are telling everyone how religious your works are and you do it too.

Doesn't look good for you.

Act 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.
The above was quoted to show that the 12 were teaching the same gospel that Paul taught.

However, a closer look shows that since Peter had to recount an event with Cornelius (a Gentile) to show that Paul's gospel was of God then it begs the question, what were the others teaching? It shows that the 12 were still teaching the Law of Moses and if you go to Acts 21 you will find that even at that late date the 12 were still teaching that the Jews were under the Law. Prove me wrong.

 

[RichardBurger]

Is it legalism to say we must follow Christ?

You say you trust in the shed blood, but by that very thing you show that you have faith in your faith, rather than in God. You trust your faith to save you! You trust your own believing will apply Jesus' blood to you.

But God applies mercy to who we will, we cannot judge who enters, he does! We have faith in him, that if we obey, he will lead us in the straight path.

On obedience.
Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Obedience leads to righteousness. Could it be? ;)

[sup]12[/sup] Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. [sup]13[/sup] Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, [sup]14[/sup] I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
[sup]15[/sup] Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you. [sup]16[/sup] Nevertheless, to the degree that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule,[sup][b][/sup] let us be of the same mind.

We attain? We press on? We lay hold? We apprehend? We reach forward?

Yes! The call of God is upward, that is, it calls us to a higher standard of righteousness, not no righteousness! You believe that Christ has laid hold of something for us, but you don't believe we are to lift a pinky to lay hold of it (you call that works)! Yet Paul gave EVERYTHING to attain it! By this your doctrine reveals to be opposite to the Gospel.

Man can not save himself by what he does to earn it.

If you knew the scriptures you would know that what Paul gave up was his religion (religious ideas under Judism).

Philippians 3:3-9
3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh,
4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so:
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.

8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
NKJV

9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;
But many preach man's righteousness as the goal where as Paul teaches we HAVE a righteousness which is from God.

As for me, I claim only the righteousness God gave to me when I placed ALLLLLLLLL my belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. I claim no works to earn it and according to scriptures the Jews failed to obtain righteousness.

Romans 1:16-17
6 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."
NKJV

But many say the just must live by their works.

Romans 4:5-8
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness,
6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin."
NKJV

But many teach that we MUST do something to earn our salvation that fith alone will not save us.

Romans 10:1-4
0 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved.
2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
NKJV

But many on forums today, are trying to establish their own righteousness by what they do instead of seeking the rightesousness that is given freely to those of faith, those that have denied themselves and placed the belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross.

Obedience under grace is to do as God has said through Paul; have faith in what God has done and not in your works to earn salvation.

 

[Nomad]

Act 15:11 But we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will.
The above was quoted to show that the 12 were teaching the same gospel that Paul taught.

However, a closer look shows that since Peter had to recount an event with Cornelius (a Gentile) to show that Paul's gospel was of God then it begs the question, what were the others teaching? It shows that the 12 were still teaching the Law of Moses and if you go to Acts 21 you will find that even at that late date the 12 were still teaching that the Jews were under the Law. Prove me wrong.

That's right Richard. The Apostles were a bit hard-headed in the beginning and had to be reminded of the Great Commission. They had to be reminded that the Gospel was for the Gentiles too. The Church was in its infancy and the Apostles were still figuring out how the Gentiles were going to fit into the picture. This is what we call progressive revelation. Also, with regard to Acts 21, you need to realize something very important. Yes, Paul says that the Law was holy, righteous and good in Romans 7, but he also acknowledges that the Law cannot save. No one can keep it. It can only condemn. It exposes sin. That is why he says, while speaking specifically about Jews mind you, that:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Rom 10:5 For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them.
Rom 10:6 But the righteousness based on faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'" (that is, to bring Christ down)
Rom 10:7 or "'Who will descend into the abyss?'" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).
Rom 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim);
Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[prism]

A true Christian will understand that his/her works a Christian does not make!

A child of God knows him/her self and knows that his/her works can not save them any more than the works of the self-righteous Pharisees saved them. The child of God knows that there is nothing they can do to earn salvation and after obtaining salvation there is still nothing they can do to keep it.

A true child of God gives Jesus ALL the glory but you want to claim your works to glorify man. IMHO you think you ought to be able to share it.

You do not teach that the Holy Spirit that is in the child of God brings about good works. You teach that man must, by his own power, do good works to be saved and keep saved. You are just teaching a works based salvation.

You claim your works and from what you write I can't see any. You never teach the gospel that saves a person by their faith in what Jesus did on ther cross and when I do it you are there to shut it down.

Richard, I think you posted my quote but your response was to a different post. All along I have been pretty much on the same page. chapter and book as you.

To most of the others, it seems the emphasis goes to the 'doing' as if our 'doing' is part of the Gospel that either helps save us or helps keeps us. Au contraire.. In Ephesian we are first placed as seated in heavenly places and until you find that rest where you cease from your works and embracce His works finding your rest (Sabbath) in Him, all your subsequent so called 'good works' are nothing but filthy rags. I'm astonished at these posts that are so saturated with self that Jesus Christ only gets a 'token' of our praise...a highway to pride.

 

[Vengle]

:)

Sometimes we strain at the gnat and gulp down the camel.

We all do it or have done it. I am no exception.

Why can't we just stop bickering and focus on obeying God?

Are we like the unruly masses in the wilderness that had come out of Egypt complaining so much that they could not hear to obey?

God is not one to be mocked. Whatever a man sows that man will reap. You know, Galatians chapter 6.

It is very apparent you are going to have works of some kind, is it not?

If you do not listen to God whose works will those be?

Romans 7:7 "What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet."

When Paul ceased to covet because he listened to the law of God (which is God's word) whose work was he doing?

If you leave the commandment of God out of your business practices whose works would those be?

Colossians 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

You do lots of work everyday.

All God is asking is that you do that work with his commandments in mind so that you hurt no one with your works.

And he also has special work that he needs done through you so that he can reach the many and save all who will listen.

The only problem as I see it is that some (or maybe more truthfully, many) preach to others zealously thinking it will save them while they leave the commandment of God out of their ordinary everyday works of life.

Why turn this into a complicated thing when it is not?