The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[Timtofly]

The jury is still out for me on what the *consensus* of the Church Fathers were on the idealic New Earth during the Millennium. Some say it will be a controlled earth by means of the rule of glorified saints over mortal mankind. Others say the Sin Nature at that time will be completely extinguished--I reject that, since there will be a rebellion at the end of the Millennial Age.

Why is a sin nature necessary to rebel? Eve did not have a sin nature when she was deceived and listened to Satan. Adam did not have a sin nature when he directly disobeyed God.

Those with a sin nature cannot be deceived by Satan. They are already deceived by their sin nature.

"And shall go out to deceive the nations"

They have to be deceived, because they do not have a sin nature. They follow Satan after deception. Eve ate after she was deceived, not because she had a sin nature.

 

[Randy Kluth]

And therein lies the beauty of Freewill.
Therein I prefer to broadly skip the outside source and go directly to the verifying source.

You separate religious experience from secular experience. You think that in medical matters you can look to a profession, and not the Bible. But when you're considering religious ideas, you can only go to the Bible. What makes you think the Bible does not involve non-religious matters like language translation, history, cultural considerations, etc.?

I do agree there is a difference between the authority of Scripture and the authority of Christian teachers. But Paul asserted, by the authority of Scripture, the need for Christian teachers. And he did not revoke the authority of non-Christian teachers.

Matt 23. 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Furthermore, Paul himself quotes non-Scriptural sources. So in a sense, Scripture supports dependence on secular sources. But I agree that Scripture has a special authority in matters of doctrine and in matters of historical religious records.

Agree. As well many rely on the outside source, and do not Bother to verify. ( I think that is more common than not. )

I also agree. Verification is very important. But I have to listen to you, because God made you, you're a Christian with gifts, and you are able to speak truth to me. But in listening to you, I have to be careful to verify what is true, what is speculative or opinion, and what is not in accord with how I see Scripture. Thanks for your comments.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why is a sin nature necessary to rebel? Eve did not have a sin nature when she was deceived and listened to Satan. Adam did not have a sin nature when he directly disobeyed God.

Those with a sin nature cannot be deceived by Satan. They are already deceived by their sin nature.

"And shall go out to deceive the nations"

They have to be deceived, because they do not have a sin nature. They follow Satan after deception. Eve ate after she was deceived, not because she had a sin nature.

What you say seems logical, but does not necessarily follow. People in their Sin Nature do not have to be deceived, and even if they are deceived in their Sin Nature they can still be deceived further.

You're right. Beings do not have to have a Sin Nature to rebel. Satan did that apparently, and so did Adam and Eve, as you said. However, Man since Adam have now had the Sin Nature, and I doubt seriously that those who are made perfect in the resurrection will fall into deception again. At least, I hope not!

 

[Taken]

You separate religious experience from secular experience. You think that in medical matters you can look to a profession, and not the Bible.

Hold on there. How do you presume to know what I think for myself in medical matters? I have zero issue with folks who want to use modern medical hospitals, doctors, drugs, on their dime, via their own choices, not forces.

I don’t “have” a doctor, take drugs, blah, blah. My choice.
And BTW I am rather familiar and do practice Biblical teachings about medicines, soothing, cures, agriculture, tending life stock and restrained animals.

But when you're considering religious ideas, you can only go to the Bible. What makes you think the Bible does not involve non-religious matters like language translation, history, cultural considerations, etc.?

Have often referenced the importance and my own heavy reliance of Biblical History.
I read in English, not Greek, not Hebrew, not Latin... If a transcription in English to too far out, I have availability of older foreign language sources and translations.

I don’t see “cultures” as particularly a “religious” thing. More so selective groups, similar likings, of dress, dance, music, foods, child rearing, husband/wife relationships/roles, personal jargon’s, gesturing, Acceptable/unacceptable behaviors within such groups, etc.
Same that I have of my own, without an other’a permission, need for an other’s acceptance, or need to shove in an other face.

I do agree there is a difference between the authority of Scripture and the authority of Christian teachers. But Paul asserted, by the authority of Scripture, the need for Christian teachers. And he did not revoke the authority of non-Christian teachers.

Sure...the majority in Paul’s day, were illiterate and the literate widely without access to written Scripture. 2,000+ years later that is not the case.

Matt 23. 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.

Well aware. Think the Catholic Church, who claims longevity, routinely taught THAT? Seems a bulk of their “rituals” are taught via mimicking.

Furthermore, Paul himself quotes non-Scriptural sources. So in a sense, Scripture supports dependence on secular sources. But I agree that Scripture has a special authority in matters of doctrine and in matters of historical religious records.

We have come a Long way since Paul’s teaching, and in this day and age, it is all about Controlling the:
Platform, Microphone, and Spouting Opinions as Facts.
Doesn’t matter if it’s news stations, schools, governments, authors, social media, Tv, Radio, a pulpit....
....Corruption is SO wide-spread, in so many avenues, I am quite content to be minimally exposed to all the nonsense, and waste my time sifting through the nonsense.
.... Again, Freewill. My Choice.

I also agree. Verification is very important. But I have to listen to you, because God made you, you're a Christian with gifts, and you are able to speak truth to me. But in listening to you, I have to be careful to verify what is true, what is speculative or opinion, and what is not in accord with how I see Scripture. Thanks for your comments.

The Lord God is good, my trust is in Him alone, and that is what I propose for others to Do, rather than worry about what I think or believe about this or that particular thing. I daily read and study Scriptural things that spark my interest, yet may not be of the slightest interest to an other. No issue. I don’t hope for or require or need followers...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Randy Kluth]

The LOF is the place where the wicked existed. What ever the LOF is, it comes into reality at least at Armageddon if not before...

That's a good question--When does the LOF come into existence? But what I was saying is not predicated on the notion that Outer Darkness and the LOF are the same thing.

For me, the LOF is a condition. It is only a place insofar as it creates an eternal condition. So when you throw your trash into the trash can forever, you're simply disposing of trash forever--you're not keeping trash in that trash can forever!

So people are thrown into the Lake of Fire forever. But that doesn't mean they stay in the fire forever. It just means their existence is removed, as by fire, from the New Earth, from paradise, forever.

Where the Lost go in Eternity is into the Outer Darkness, or outside of the New Earth's Paradise. In the Millennium, mortals live on earth still outside of the celestial New Jerusalem--not in Outer Darkness, but that seems to be how some Church Fathers saw it.

I don't personally identify the Millennial Earth as "New Jerusalem." But I do believe that the glorified saints will rule from heaven while mortals continue to live a life on earth much as we do today, only without the harassment of the Devil.

You are taking the literal LOF and saying these are mortals enjoying an earth without sin.

I was just talking about how it seems some Church Fathers who were Chiliasts viewed the Millennial Earth. They described it as a New Jerusalem, consisting of the glorified, resurrected saints, indicating that sin had been completely undone, along with its corruptions. I'm speculating when I say, these Church Fathers may simply have been focusing on the hope of today's Church in the Millennium, neglecting to reflect on humanity at that time, whether mortal or not.

That is why the modern view of pre-mill is wrong. Amil disregard the LOF and deny the future Millennium without sin. They instead force the here and now even into their definition of the NHNE. Some call the next reality, eternity, which is an error. Eternity is outside of creation, not the NHNE.

I believe the Millennial Age is, for the glorified Church, the beginning of Eternity. It is not yet Eternity for mortals in the Millennial Age.

Yes, Amiil confuses me in their attempt to apply the Millennium to today's age, where Satan and sin continue to run rampant. It is anything but a "binding of Satan." And it certainly isn't the Eternal Kingdom yet, though I don't believe Amil would even suggest that?

The early church fathers were just voicing their private opinion and interpretation like we do in this forum today. They had the exact same Scripture we have today to discuss. What we can not comment on is their bias and state of mind. Yet that is what many here do to prove they are just as legitimate as the ecf were.

Yes, we are all free to speculate--we have the same Scriptures. There were advantages they had, however, as well as advantages we have.

In our day we've seen the possibility that Israel, as a nation, may reform. That would certainly take an act of God, but nations have changed miraculously in the past. Pagan nations have turned to Christ *as nations!* It doesn't mean that all citizens become true Christians, but that the entire population nominally embraces the Christian system of justice and morality.

The advantage the Church Fathers had over us is that they were nearer in time to the Apostles. So they weren't so confused by so many groups claiming to be Christian and by so many different views of Scriptural belief and practice.

What many miss here, is that the time up in Revelation 10, is the 70th week. When Jesus is declared King of every nation is the end of the 70th week. Jesus put in the 3.5 years as Messiah. Jesus will put in the remaining time as King in Jerusalem, and then the 7th Trumpet will sound. Jesus is both Christ and King, or as Daniel wrote, Messiah and Prince.

As I said, I won't go there because I believe Daniel's 70 Weeks were completely finished at Jesus' 1st advent and in the accompanying destruction of corrupt Judaism. The 70th Week was technically completed in only half of a Week, because Jesus was cut off after only 3.5 years. But the judgment against Jerusalem and the temple was stated to be the consequence of Jewish rebellion in the time of Jesus' death.

The 70th week is not just a period of time labeled 7 years.... But the implementation to Israel was placed on hold for the fulness of the Gentiles. And that is still ongoing until Jesus arrives at the Second Coming, and removes the Church.

That is why I teach that the Great Tribulation is most often misinterpreted to be the Reign of Antichrist. It is actually the Punishment of the Jewish People throughout the present age, which is the worst tribulation or punishment Israel has ever experienced, just as Jesus said. When the Gentiles have had adequate time with the Christian Gospel, Israel will be judged along with the nations, and then brought back to life as a religious nation.

Then Jesus will sit as King in Jerusalem until Jacob's trouble is over and finalized, and time is declared over for those 70 weeks. The longer the church is gathering a harvest, the shorter the time of Jacob's trouble. The Trumpets are the events of Jacob's trouble, because 144k of Jacob's seed are sealed to not be harmed in this time of Jacob's trouble. Jesus has to carry out the final harvest as King before the 70th week can be declared finished.

To me the "trumpets" simply signify judgment at the end of the age for all of those who rebel against Christ. We are already nearing the end of the Harvest because former Christian nations are now in total apostasy. There are pockets of evangelism still going on in 3rd World Countries and in far reaches, but for the most part, we're looking at the end.

Unfortunately the time of AoD happens in the midst of the days of the 7th Trumpet. That is why Revelation 10 and 11, cannot be declared the end, because Satan's 42 months split the week of the 7th Trumpet. This is pointed out in that the 2 witnesses will lay dead for 3.5 days, the last half of that week. But that split is the worse case scenario. The week may not be split at all. At the end of the week, then Revelation 14 will happen, the alternate Armageddon if Satan is not allowed 42 months.

I don't have a full Week at all, and it was fulfilled in history as a half-Week. Dan 7 indicates Antichrist's reign will only be 3.5 years. Revelation confirms that.

Jesus is on the earth already since the 6th Seal...

I'm Postrib. Jesus comes, biblically, on the last day of the age. He comes with angels, judgment, and the resurrected saints, precisely for the purpose of establishing his Kingdom on earth immediately.

But to say there will be sinners, which is the definition of mortal, being dead in Adam's flesh, in the Millennium is horribly wrong.

It's my view that sinners will populate the Millennial Age, just as mortal sinners populate the earth today. That's because at the end of the Millennium there will be a rebellion. I think that requires that there already be sin-laden people on earth, to constitute this rebellion.

Secondly, the Bible indicates that the glorified saints will rule over the nations in the Kingdom Age. This means, to me, that sinful people will be repressed, so that angels are judged and kept from provoking humanity to war. Sin will not be allowed to get out of hand, such as provoking international war and fighting against Christian states.

Daniel 9:24 prohibits such a state of mankind.

As I said, I don't hold to that view of Dan 9.

The sheep and wheat are the remnant of earth...

I understand how you see it. Thanks.

So Amil, historist, and preterist are wrong and declare time up, and the 7th Trumpet sounded 7 years after Jesus was baptized. All futurists are wrong because they put Jesus' baptism and the Cross and all 7 years in the future.

I'm a futurist, and I don't put any 7 year period in the future. Daniel's 70th Week was, I believe, fulfilled as a Half-Week in the past, and Antichrist's 3.5 year reign will be in the future, in the last days. I disagree with Preterists who believe nearly all apocalyptic prophecy was fulfilled at the cross and in the 1st generation of Christianity, or in the Early Church.

I disagree with Amil's attempt to apply eschatological truth to the present time, although I do agree with them Christian truths about the future Kingdom already have some limited impact in the present age. For example, we can cast devils out of people, but we cannot cast Satan out of the world. We can heal the sick, but we can't grant immortality to people immediately.

They attribute Jesus as some future AC...

I don't accept views unless a substantial number of Christians in history have already held to them. God's word doesn't work with only one or two people! Truth doesn't have to be popular, but it does have to work!

I don't think the book of Revelation is designed with contingencies in mind. But I do agree with Free Will. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hold on there. How do you presume to know what I think for myself in medical matters? I have zero issue with folks who want to use modern medical hospitals, doctors, drugs, on their dime, via their own choices, not forces.

I don’t “have” a doctor, take drugs, blah, blah. My choice.
And BTW I am rather familiar and do practice Biblical teachings about medicines, soothing, cures, agriculture, tending life stock and restrained animals.

I don't know anything about you--I was making a point. All of us, with zero exceptions, have to rely on secular authoritities for a great variety of things, for health, for education, for paying bills, etc. etc. One cannot divide up the religious world from the secular world in many matters. We only do so in matters of fellowship and morals. Learning is not exclusively a *Scriptural* thing!

Have often referenced the importance and my own heavy reliance of Biblical History.
I read in English, not Greek, not Hebrew, not Latin... If a transcription in English to too far out, I have availability of older foreign language sources and translations.

My point is, you can't read without consulting English language sources. You can't understand how credible a translation is without learning from authorities on language.

I don’t see “cultures” as particularly a “religious” thing. More so selective groups, similar likings, of dress, dance, music, foods, child rearing, husband/wife relationships/roles, personal jargon’s, gesturing, Acceptable/unacceptable behaviors within such groups, etc.
Same that I have of my own, without an other’a permission, need for an other’s acceptance, or need to shove in an other face.

Yes, Paul marginalized these kinds of cultural matters, such as tradition, dress, personal taste, etc. He wrote it off basically as "external matters," in contrast with Christ, who is the "substance." And according to Paul, we only retain the "substance" when we acknowledge Christ on the inside by confession and on the outside by conformity with his Spirit. How we dress and speak often don't suggest anything more than cultural upbringing.

"I become all things to all men."

We have come a Long way since Paul’s teaching, and in this day and age, it is all about Controlling the:
Platform, Microphone, and Spouting Opinions as Facts.
Doesn’t matter if it’s news stations, schools, governments, authors, social media, Tv, Radio, a pulpit....
....Corruption is SO wide-spread, in so many avenues, I am quite content to be minimally exposed to all the nonsense, and waste my time sifting through the nonsense.
.... Again, Freewill. My Choice.

Yes, I do know what you mean. My wife and I have a time knowing how far to go to integrate into our society. Sometimes we don't even want to integrate into our church! But rather than cut ourselves off, we feel the need to "get out there" and try to "be a light."
Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[Taken]

Yes, I do know what you mean. My wife and I have a time knowing how far to go to integrate into our society. Sometimes we don't even want to integrate into our church! But rather than cut ourselves off, we feel the need to "get out there" and try to "be a light."
Thanks for your thoughts.

I know what you mean! We are not all into the gadgetry and crazy race of doing nothing for oneself and move ninety miles a minute to a frustrating end. People simply look angry, rushing everywhere or fake drug induced, nipped and tucked posing as happy. A strange phenomenon to me. The younger generations are comical characters that can not function without gadgets/electronics as if that is their life line. Weird to me.

 

[WPM]

You really need to get your attitude in alignment with Christ--this post was not for you, nor intended as an insult to you. These are my honest feelings. I serve the Lord--not you.

You're wrong. Some of the Church Fathers did seem to believe the New Earth and New Jerusalem take place immediately at Christ's 2nd Coming. I did not make that up and try to make the Church Fathers align with my belief. If indeed I'm wrong, and I shouldn't look at things the way I am, I'm open. I'm not entirely ignorant of the Church Fathers, but there's a lot more I could read to get a better grasp of some of these issues. Sorry you're not having a good day.

You really need to get your attitude in alignment with Christ--this post was not for you, nor intended as an insult to you. These are my honest feelings. I serve the Lord--not you.

You're wrong. Some of the Church Fathers did seem to believe the New Earth and New Jerusalem take place immediately at Christ's 2nd Coming. I did not make that up and try to make the Church Fathers align with my belief. If indeed I'm wrong, and I shouldn't look at things the way I am, I'm open. I'm not entirely ignorant of the Church Fathers, but there's a lot more I could read to get a better grasp of some of these issues. Sorry you're not having a good day.

The opposite is the truth. I am not interested in getting into the gutter with you. Keep this up and I am putting you on ignore. You wallow in ad-hominem

You have failed miserably at forcing your own narrative on the ECFs. You present no historical support because you have nothing. You argue from silence. That is why you depend on Ice.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Just think for a moment about what you're saying. I identify a brief set of quotations outlining arguments for Premil that I agree with. But you won't look at it because it doesn't represent my views? How weak is that? You won't consider anything that isn't here? Don't you consider the Apostle Paul, and he isn't here! That's the Bible!

What is wrong with you, Randy? Did I not make myself clear? When I'm here, I want to talk to other people here and not go to other websites and read what other people are saying. Is there something hard to understand about that?

Equating looking at the Bible with looking at quotes from Thomas Ice is utterly ridiculous! Are you serious? Come on. Just quote stuff here if you want, but I have no interest in clicking on external links while I'm here. Is there something you can't understand about that? Good grief.

I believe these people like Thomas Ice are biased. Is it okay with you if I have that opinion of them? I already showed that Justin Martyr indicated that many true Christians disagreed with his view, so if you want to insist that his view was the dominant view, then, to me, you are contradicting Justin Martyr himself. I don't have any more to say on this. It's pointless going over this any further. I'd rather talk about scripture than what the early church fathers said.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is wrong with you, Randy? Did I not make myself clear? When I'm here, I want to talk to other people here and not go to other websites and read what other people are saying. Is there something hard to understand about that?

So if I'm here with you, talking with you, and I want to hold up a diagram, a plan, a picture, a scenario for you to consider, but you can't do that? People provide attachments, prophecy charts, and references all the time, including Bible quotations. But you won't go see a Bible quotation because it's not here with you--it's on a website?

I think you know I'm being purposely ridiculous, but it's for a reason. Dr. Ice is not my "mentor," is not even my friend or acquaintance. And I don't even agree with his eschatology. But on this particular subject he makes the very arguments I wish to make while I'm here in person with you. But you won't consider it why?

I can relate when people send me over to some long-winded preacher or author, who wishes to consume all of my time and oxygen with needless facts and arguments that do not directly relate or even allow much of a back and forth discussion about it. But in this case, the reference I provided is only about 3 short pages, and provide the necessary quotations I wish to bring forward as evidence on behalf of my position. It's just a brief presentation of the very arguments I have for you.

I believe these people like Thomas Ice are biased. Is it okay with you if I have that opinion of them? I already showed that Justin Martyr indicated that many true Christians disagreed with his view, so if you want to insist that his view was the dominant view, then, to me, you are contradicting Justin Martyr himself. I don't have any more to say on this. It's pointless going over this any further. I'd rather talk about scripture than what the early church fathers said.

If you don't want to talk about it, fine. Why make any further arguments with me, then? A closed-minded person "doesn't want to talk about it," and I'm sure such a one would have very good reasons for not wanting to talk about it. But the whole purpose of discussion requires that we view positions that are biased and that we quite disagree with.

But if you're happy not talking about other positions, I'm good with that.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The opposite is the truth. I am not interested in getting into the gutter with you. Keep this up and I am putting you on ignore. You wallow in ad-hominem

You have failed miserably at forcing your own narrative on the ECFs. You present no historical support because you have nothing. You argue from silence. That is why you depend on Ice.

Brother, honestly I don't care to discuss anything more with you because you're a perennial complainer about others, who you identify as "ignorant, frustrated, and uneducated." If others do not agree with you, you either attack them or insult them.

Those who complain about malicious talk often are the ones who are themselves doing that. And that's how you began this entire thread, by bad-mouth and slandering Premils as if they are following ancient heretics.

Try a good, friendly conversation with me without all of the whining and self-righteousness. I'm not impressed by your level of "Christianity." It's of very poor quality. And your quality of spirituality matters more than all of these kinds of arguments.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

So if I'm here with you, talking with you, and I want to hold up a diagram, a plan, a picture, a scenario for you to consider, but you can't do that? People provide attachments, prophecy charts, and references all the time, including Bible quotations. But you won't go see a Bible quotation because it's not here with you--it's on a website?

Exactly. I come here to read what people here have to say. If I want to read what is being said on other websites then I'll do that some other time. Why is this so hard for you to understand? I don't come to this site just to be redirected to some other site. That's the way it is for me. Can't you accept that?

I think you know I'm being purposely ridiculous, but it's for a reason. Dr. Ice is not my "mentor," is not even my friend or acquaintance. And I don't even agree with his eschatology. But on this particular subject he makes the very arguments I wish to make while I'm here in person with you. But you won't consider it why?

I believe he has no credibility whatsoever. I have no interest at all in reading anything he has to say. Can you accept that? You should. I have the right to decide who I find to be credible and who I don't find to be credible.

My goodness, this is a colossal waste of time at this point. I'm done with this thread. I'd much rather talk about scripture than the ECFs or Thomas Ice.

If you don't want to talk about it, fine. Why make any further arguments with me, then?

I won't be doing that.

A closed-minded person "doesn't want to talk about it," and I'm sure such a one would have very good reasons for not wanting to talk about it.

I'm not closed-minded. Are you trying to influence me to put you on my ignore list? Just because you don't agree with the conclusion I draw from what Justin Martyr said doesn't mean I'm closed-minded. Should I say you are closed-minded just because you disagree with the conclusions I draw from what he said?

But the whole purpose of discussion requires that we view positions that are biased and that we quite disagree with.

But if you're happy not talking about other positions, I'm good with that.

I'm glad about that because this kind of topic mostly bores me and is not worth the time. But, I just happened to see you make what I believed was an unsubstantiated claim made by biased people, so I responded. But, I'm not interested in talking about this topic any further.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Lacantius, in Divine Institutes, seems to portray a Millennial world in which the nations continue to exist as always until Christians take on the form of angels at the end of this era. I'll comment more later, but Lancantius treats this as if this is the normal Christian view. CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book VII (Lactantius)

Chapter 26. Of the Loosing of the Devil, and of the Second and Greatest Judgment.
We have said, a little before, that it will come to pass at the commencement of the sacred reign, that the prince of the devils will be bound by God. But he also, when the thousand years of the kingdom, that is, seven thousand of the world, shall begin to be ended, will be loosed afresh, and being sent forth from prison, will go forth and assemble all the nations, which shall then be under the dominion of the righteous, that they may make war against the holy city; and there shall be collected together from all the world an innumerable company of the nations, and shall besiege and surround the city. Then the last anger of God shall come upon the nations, and shall utterly destroy them; and first He shall shake the earth most violently, and by its motion the mountains of Syria shall be rent, and the hills shall sink down precipitously, and the walls of all cities shall fall, and God shall cause the sun to stand, so that he set not for three days, and shall set it on fire; and excessive heat and great burning shall descend upon the hostile and impious people, and showers of brimstone, and hailstones, and drops of fire; and their spirits shall melt through the heat, and their bodies shall be bruised by the hail, and they shall smite one another with the sword. The mountains shall be filled with carcasses, and the plains shall be covered with bones; but the people of God during those three days shall be concealed under caves of the earth, until the anger of God against the nations and the last judgment shall be ended.

Then the righteous shall go forth from their hiding-places, and shall find all things covered with carcasses and bones. But the whole race of the wicked shall utterly perish; and there shall no longer be any nation in this world, but the nation of God alone. Then for seven continuous years the woods shall be untouched, nor shall timber be cut from the mountains, but the arms of the nations shall be burnt; and now there shall be no war, but peace and everlasting rest. But when the thousand years shall be completed, the world shall be renewed by God, and the heavens shall be folded together, and the earth shall be changed, and God shall transform men into the similitude of angels, and they shall be white as snow; and they shall always be employed in the sight of the Almighty, and shall make offerings to their Lord, and serve Him forever. At the same time shall take place that second and public resurrection of all, in which the unrighteous shall be raised to everlasting punishments. These are they who have worshipped the works of their own hands, who have either been ignorant of, or have denied the Lord and Parent of the world. But their lord with his servants shall be seized and condemned to punishment, together with whom all the band of the wicked, in accordance with their deeds, shall be burnt for ever with perpetual fire in the sight of angels and the righteous.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I'm not closed-minded. Are you trying to influence me to put you on my ignore list? Just because you don't agree with the conclusion I draw from what Justin Martyr said doesn't mean I'm closed-minded. Should I say you are closed-minded just because you disagree with the conclusions I draw from what he said?

My goodness, do you think I feel threatened by you putting me on a censured list? I don't want to talk to anybody who is closed-minded on any particular subject. Truth must always be willing to be scrutinized--not edited.

Brother, I have zero problem with you being bored by this particular subject. It's very interesting to me. Some people love to talk about cars. That conversation bores me, but I often indulge them because *they* find it interesting, and I try to learn something in the process.

But generally, if you aren't interested in a particular subject, God is probably wanting you to focus on other areas of ministry. And I won't get in your way. We're on the same team.

I'm glad about that because this kind of topic mostly bores me and is not worth the time. But, I just happened to see you make what I believed was an unsubstantiated claim made by biased people, so I responded. But, I'm not interested in talking about this topic any further.

The problem began when you entered in some comments, which of course invite an answer. But you can check out now.

 

[Timtofly]

However, Man since Adam have now had the Sin Nature, and I doubt seriously that those who are made perfect in the resurrection will fall into deception again. At least, I hope not!

That first generation that experienced life in sin, and then life without sin cannot disobey. That would mean they face the second death.

We are talking about their offspring 20 to 30 generations later, 1,000 years later.

 

[Randy Kluth]

That first generation that experienced life in sin, and then life without sin cannot disobey. That would mean they face the second death.

We are talking about their offspring 20 to 30 generations later, 1,000 years later.

No, we're talking about how God made us. It does not follow that we can ever sin again if God chose to give us one test in this life, and then reward success with immortality. By definition, immortality means eternal blessedness in the fellowship of God.

 

[WPM]

Lacantius, in Divine Institutes, seems to portray a Millennial world in which the nations continue to exist as always until Christians take on the form of angels at the end of this era. I'll comment more later, but Lancantius treats this as if this is the normal Christian view. CHURCH FATHERS: Divine Institutes, Book VII (Lactantius)

Chapter 26. Of the Loosing of the Devil, and of the Second and Greatest Judgment.
We have said, a little before, that it will come to pass at the commencement of the sacred reign, that the prince of the devils will be bound by God. But he also, when the thousand years of the kingdom, that is, seven thousand of the world, shall begin to be ended, will be loosed afresh, and being sent forth from prison, will go forth and assemble all the nations, which shall then be under the dominion of the righteous, that they may make war against the holy city; and there shall be collected together from all the world an innumerable company of the nations, and shall besiege and surround the city. Then the last anger of God shall come upon the nations, and shall utterly destroy them; and first He shall shake the earth most violently, and by its motion the mountains of Syria shall be rent, and the hills shall sink down precipitously, and the walls of all cities shall fall, and God shall cause the sun to stand, so that he set not for three days, and shall set it on fire; and excessive heat and great burning shall descend upon the hostile and impious people, and showers of brimstone, and hailstones, and drops of fire; and their spirits shall melt through the heat, and their bodies shall be bruised by the hail, and they shall smite one another with the sword. The mountains shall be filled with carcasses, and the plains shall be covered with bones; but the people of God during those three days shall be concealed under caves of the earth, until the anger of God against the nations and the last judgment shall be ended.

Then the righteous shall go forth from their hiding-places, and shall find all things covered with carcasses and bones. But the whole race of the wicked shall utterly perish; and there shall no longer be any nation in this world, but the nation of God alone. Then for seven continuous years the woods shall be untouched, nor shall timber be cut from the mountains, but the arms of the nations shall be burnt; and now there shall be no war, but peace and everlasting rest. But when the thousand years shall be completed, the world shall be renewed by God, and the heavens shall be folded together, and the earth shall be changed, and God shall transform men into the similitude of angels, and they shall be white as snow; and they shall always be employed in the sight of the Almighty, and shall make offerings to their Lord, and serve Him forever. At the same time shall take place that second and public resurrection of all, in which the unrighteous shall be raised to everlasting punishments. These are they who have worshipped the works of their own hands, who have either been ignorant of, or have denied the Lord and Parent of the world. But their lord with his servants shall be seized and condemned to punishment, together with whom all the band of the wicked, in accordance with their deeds, shall be burnt for ever with perpetual fire in the sight of angels and the righteous.

Exactly. You have found your first Premil. But he was over 210 years after the cross - a fact i have repeatedly highlighted for years. He was an authentic Premil, although his eschatology was heavily influenced by the heathen Sibyl prophetesses. Another ironic historical fact.

 

[WPM]

Brother, honestly I don't care to discuss anything more with you because you're a perennial complainer about others, who you identify as "ignorant, frustrated, and uneducated." If others do not agree with you, you either attack them or insult them.

Those who complain about malicious talk often are the ones who are themselves doing that. And that's how you began this entire thread, by bad-mouth and slandering Premils as if they are following ancient heretics.

Try a good, friendly conversation with me without all of the whining and self-righteousness. I'm not impressed by your level of "Christianity." It's of very poor quality. And your quality of spirituality matters more than all of these kinds of arguments.

Look in the mirror. You are describing yourself. Why are you so bitter?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Look in the mirror. You are describing yourself. Why are you so bitter?

I'm not bitter at all. What makes you think I'm bitter? I disagree with you because I'm not convinced you're correct in slandering the Premil position. It is not, I feel, based upon teachers like Cerinthus, a heretic!

Even though you apparently believe this, I don't take it personally. I just wish to deal with it as it is--a slanderous accusation. There's no nice way to say it, but it's downright mean-spirited.

But you can change that by saying things like, "Is Premil based upon an ancient heresy?" Asking the question removes the charge that opens you up to these kinds of exchanges.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Exactly. You have found your first Premil. But he was over 210 years after the cross - a fact i have repeatedly highlighted for years. He was an authentic Premil, although his eschatology was heavily influenced by the heathen Sibyl prophetesses. Another ironic historical fact.

You don't get to determine what is an "authentic Premil." As far as I'm concerned, the vast number of the early Church Fathers were Chiliasts and Premils. The fact Lacantius came when he did is all the more convincing of this fact since he indicated his view had been dominant.

Immediately after Lacantius relates these things he says this: This is the doctrine of the holy prophets which we Christians follow; this is our wisdom.

Sounds like he is pretty convinced that Premil covers the preceding era as well as his own?