The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[jeffweeder]

I think people will continue to be called "Christians" in the Millennium because there will be non-Christians at that time, as well. The name "Christian" distinguishes them from non-Christians.

Just like today. There are clearly the saved and the lost living today.


[ Quote Randy ] Nobody would be called "Christian" before Christ actually came.]

Who is Jesus going to receive to himself then ,when he comes?

[ quote Randy ]] I don't agree with you that people will all be sinless immortals in the Millennium.]

Agreed whether the millennium is now or only the elect in your future Premill


[ Quote Randy] How can people by the millions rise up in rebellion against the "city of God" at the end of the Millennium if there are no sinful people in the Millennium? ]

Exactly. True whether your Amill or Premill.

[ Quote Randy ]You're saying that sinless people will en masse decide to return to sin?]

Amill is not saying that.
Amill believes you either repent and are saved or you perish when he comes.

There is no group in the middle that are not faithful enough to be saved and not wicked enough to perish. Today is the day yes?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Just like today. There are clearly the saved and the lost living today.

Yep, if you're Amil, there are saved and lost today. That's your "Millennium."

I also believe, in my "future" Millennium, that there will be saved and lost. The difference is critical, however. Satan is bound such that God's promises to Abraham are fulfilled. That means Christian nations, including Israel, will no longer be oppressed and destroyed. That is very different from the present age!

I do agree that certain things are in fact fulfilled in the present age. Christ has completely won our legal salvation. And Christian nations have come into being. However, I do not think this is anything more than a progressive thing, actually going downhill presently. I believe we need a Millennium to end the downslide and to reinstitute the growth.

[ Quote Randy ] Nobody would be called "Christian" before Christ actually came.]

Who is Jesus going to receive to himself then ,when he comes?

You apparently didn't read the whole conversation I was having, or just didn't understand it. The brother/Timothy was arguing that in the OT there were no "Christians." And I answered that there weren't any "Christians" yet because Christ hadn't yet come!

Of course there are Christians now. There weren't "Christians" before Christ's *1st Coming.*

[ quote Randy ]] I don't agree with you that people will all be sinless immortals in the Millennium.]

Agreed whether the millennium is now or only the elect in your future Premill

There are certainly no immortals in the present age, with the exception of Jesus who did obtain an immortal body. The saints, past and present, receive their immortal bodies at the 2nd Coming, in my theology.

[ Quote Randy] How can people by the millions rise up in rebellion against the "city of God" at the end of the Millennium if there are no sinful people in the Millennium? ]

Exactly. True whether your Amill or Premill.

WPM argues that there cannot be a Millennium of the future at all because that would mean the world would have to be intensely sinful in order to provide for an enormous rebellion at the end of that period. I don't happen to believe that. I believe people can be measured in their Sin Nature for a long time, particularly without satanic influence, and later return to extreme sins with the release of Satan.

[ Quote Randy ]You're saying that sinless people will en masse decide to return to sin?]

Amill is not saying that.
Amill believes you either repent and are saved or you perish when he comes.

There is no group in the middle that are not faithful enough to be saved and not wicked enough to perish. Today is the day yes?

I was not arguing with an Amil, as I understand Timothy. So I wasn't suggesting Amil believes anything in particular. Timothy suggested people were this X group who are neither immortal nor Christian who just suddenly decide to follow Satan at the end of the Millennium.

Well, I would partly agree with this. But I certainly don't accept that there are no Christians during my future Millennium, nor would you, as an Amil, think there are no Christians during the "present" symbolic Millennium. We certainly have some things in common. Too bad other Amils can't be as civil as you, brother!

 

[jeffweeder]

Randy. I wasnt sure who you were addressing as I have Tim on Ignore. I assumed you were addressing Spiritual Israelite or Paul Malcomson without Quoting them.

Where do you get the idea in the NT that people survive the 2nd coming in order to populate the future Millennium?
I cannot find any such scripture that remotely alludes to such a time. I see multiple NT scriptures that forbid such a time. One being that today is the day to get saved and another is..,

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, ( His promise to come again) as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

2THESS 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Strongs 622-perish ...,

from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Randy. I wasnt sure who you were addressing as I have Tim on Ignore. I assumed you were addressing Spiritual Israelite or Paul Malcomson without Quoting them.

Right, I get that Jeff. Paul and SI have regularly been threatening to cut me off. They may be gone from my window.

Where do you get the idea in the NT that people survive the 2nd coming in order to populate the future Millennium?
I cannot find any such scripture that remotely alludes to such a time. I see multiple NT scriptures that forbid such a time. One being that today is the day to get saved and another is..,

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, ( His promise to come again) as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance.

2THESS 2
8 Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not accept the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Strongs 622-perish ...,

from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

Yea, and I was raised to think like that too. I suppose it was the popular Dispensationalist movement that influenced me to even think about the Millennium as a future reality. In a way it does seem strange to have Scripture contemplate a future that has no real impact on us now. It seems like so much Mormon-type imaginary history.

But then again, I could not get past the possible literalness of Scripture, particularly when it warns us not to add to nor subtract from anything in the Vision. So, I've always found it safer to accept this literally until convinced otherwise.

The problem of the continuation of a future mortal, sinful world following judgment is something I've had to think about, particularly since biblical eschatology is focused so much on final judgment at the Return of Christ. But so much in Bible Prophecy seems focused on a "final salvation" of National Israel, a time when the world will no longer torment the Jews and the world will finally experience peace. And the words expressing this seemed to depict humanity just as it is now, only with a measure of peace and with a great increase of the knowledge of God across the earth.

To get around the language of a final judgment that exterminates all of humanity and annihilates the world I simply looked at prophetic language in the Bible and recognized that major judgments are normally looked at in an experiential way, as if the judgment is viewed locally. Even if it describes a world-wide judgment, it is depicted in language of one experiencing it in his own place.

So I came to recognize that universal language does not always mean "exhaustive" judgment, but only a major judgment, having to let the context determine how comprehensive the judgment will actually be. Nobody in the Bible looked at earth as a planet, but rather, as the land beneath their feet. They could indeed see the earth in its totality, but describing it they only viewed it experientially. If "all the earth" is judged, it may mean their own little world is coming crashing down, or it could also mean that everybody on earth dies. It depends on the context.

So lacking lots of detail about the "Millennium," we have all of these discussions and differences of opinions. Indeed, I don't think God provided detail about a future era so that we could waste time speculating about it. If it does affect us today, then we should focus on that part of it.

Amls tend to focus on the need to look back to the cross of Christ, which is, of course, essential. Premils tend to focus on the need to look forward to the fulfillment of God's promises. In doing this, they look back to the specific promises God gave to Abraham concerning Israel and the world. As long as we focus on the essentials in this regard, I don't think our differences are that major.

But Paul M. and S. Israelite are really upset with my taking issue with them from the Premil pov. I just don't know why they should be upset when the title of the thread starting this discussion accused Premils of following ancient heretical leaders? Obviously, if I'm Premil I shouldn't agree with that!

 

[No Pre-TB]

This thread:
It’s Premillennialism….
No, it’s Amillennialism…
No, I’m right…
No, you’re wrong. I’m right.
Na uh!
Grr…grrr…
(Children! Behave!)

 

[Timtofly]

There is an inconsistency here. Later, you admit that the Church is "resurrected into incorruptible physical bodies." That is "immortality." If you're just saying you don't believe there will be any immortal Christians *on earth,* then you should come out and say so from the start. Otherwise, what you say here is completely confusing.

What is the removal of death? Why is removal of death confusing? Do you think death will go on for all eternity? Humans are sons of God. They were never supposed to die.

What was the penalty God gave to Adam?

"for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

It is just not immortality. That is thinking too small.

Again, you're very confusing because you're not starting with explaining your theological system. So your claims just appear to be a lot of assertions without proof. If what you mean is that the present age is characterized by the victory of carnal mankind over spiritual Christianity, then I can see your point. But the change that happens at Christ's Coming does *not* indicate that God's "city" is anywhere other than on the earth. And His city would include the Church, or Christianity, your claim notwithstanding.

I am explaining Scripture. That is the basis.

My own view is that the glorified saints of the present age establish the Kingdom, together with Christ, and then reign from heaven. So we may be in agreement on that. But the idea that no Christianity develops on earth seems completely absurd. To not have Christianity at all on earth is to have more dominant carnality on earth. And the Scriptures portray the coming Kingdom of God as one of peace and tranquility. You're not going to get that without Christianity.

Why is removing sin from the earth such a conundrum? With Satan bound, sin gone, everlasting righteousness restored, and Adam's dead corruptible flesh no longer in existence, there are no sinners nor lost people. It is the restoration of the earth to a condition prior to Adam's disobedience. This life will be totally forgotten.

This is very difficult for me to comprehend. 1st you say " being a sinner has nothing to do with listening to Satan." And then you say the opposite, that "listening to Satan leads to disobedience."

I agree that people on earth will decide to en masse listen to Satan and rebel against God's "city." But you have to define God's "city?" If that isn't Christianity, what is it?

Jerusalem

This is not a "given" for me. Nowhere are we told that the Church is in paradise at the 6th Seal. And bringing your specific interpretation of Revelation's many symbolic events into your general eschatology is fraught with problems. You cannot design a good eschatology based on lots of theoretical interpretations of difficult passages! I won't even argue your eschatology on that basis, if you don't have much clearer and easier statements from Scripture elsewhere.

What is easier than matching up the Second Coming in the Olivet Discourse, with the 6th Seal?

I never said they were. I agree with you--I don't think the glorified Church will come back from heaven to live with mortals during the Millennium. I believe we will reign from heaven until the Millennium is over.

But it's a completely different thing to say mortal humanity no longer produces Christians! The whole purpose of the age of the Kingdom is to spread the knowledge of God across the earth as the "waters cover the sea." And that knowledge is carried by Christians--not by non-Christians!

No the whole purpose is A Sabbath Day of rest.

The purpose of the last 1992 years was to spread the Gospel across the earth. That time is up at the Second Coming.

You have a rather bizarre belief system! Where did you get this idea? The Gnostics tended to make up all kinds of imaginary scenarios, thinking they were getting revelation from God. I hope that's not what you're doing here?

The "sons of God" refers to those who embrace the ways of God. They simply backslid in the time of the Flood. Certainly there have been people who follow the ways of God from that time forward. And they also may backslide. None of it means there are no "sons of God" on earth!

It really seems like you're trying to set up some kind of dichotomy, which is what Gnostics always did. They were dualists. It made a neat and tidy package of the "good" and the "bad." You have the "Age of the Flesh." And you place "the Church" in heaven. What you have then is no place for God's word to work with men, to enable them to work with Him at times to accomplish His goals. All is evil. And the good simply has to exit. At least that's how it's coming across to me.

I am saying the dead do not return to earth, but remain in Paradise. You already agreed they remain in Paradise. No sense in making it more confusing than that.

All I was trying to say is Adam, Noah, David, Moses, Peter, and Paul and all in between and since Adam to this day don't return and live on earth during the Millennium. Once they were granted entrance to Paradise, that became their home.

The glorified Church comes back to earth when the New Earth comes into existence after the Millennium. Meanwhile, during the Millennium, God is able to complete His promises on earth through the mortal world, many of whom submit to Christianity and carry these plans out.

Nope. The earth is reset to before Adam disobeyed God. That is the whole point of destroying everything on earth at the Second Coming. The whole 1,000 years is set apart and Holy to God.

This is typical Gnostic symbolism. The 7th Day, the Millennium, cannot carry righteousness for you unless people become neither Christian nor non-Christian. They are no longer dominated by evil, but neither are they Christians who carry out God's will. Ultimately, they choose to follow Satan again.

Once again, you are dragging Adam's dead sinful flesh into the Millennium. Stop doing that.

Above, you said there is no "immortality," which is exactly what you're describing here! ????

No, incorruptible humans no longer bound by the bondage of sin and death.

Immortality means never dying. The last enemy is Death.

Being glorified in Paradise is what you imply with immortality. Your term "mortal" is currently living in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. We are literally living death.

The Millennium is free from this adamic bondage. Death is still there and instant for those who disobey any rule in the Millennium.

Adam was safe as long as he did not disobey God. All born in the Millennium will be safe as long as they do not disobey Christ the King. All life back to the condition of life on earth before Adam disobeyed.

You seem to be describing immortals who act as mortals???? And yet, you deny they are "Christians?" Wierd.

You keep placing Adam's dead corruptible flesh into the Millennium, which is weird, because no one will remember and even know who Adam was.

Again, you apply your own subjective definitions. Who are "Adam's flesh" if not human beings? But you seem to assign to them a different meaning?

It's way too confusing for me. None of it appears to be biblical, but rather, based on some kind of symbolic interpretation that you have concocted out of your own ideas. Yes, some of it is biblical. But as a whole, it doesn't make sense to me. Sorry.

The Millennium does not make sense how it is currently described by the church. Amil deny it, which does not make sense to Deny God's Word, but they do, and can use Scripture to allegedly prove their denial. Pre-mill do not remove Adam's dead corruptible flesh, because they don’t know who the remnant are. Post mill think this earth keeps getting better on man's own cognizance.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This thread:
It’s Premillennialism….
No, it’s Amillennialism…
No, I’m right…
No, you’re wrong. I’m right.
Na uh!
Grr…grrr…
(Children! Behave!)

Don't be silly. These are adult topics. It's how you discuss them, in a mature way or not, that makes them "like children" or not. Otherwise, maybe you shouldn't be here yourself, because this place is for debating difficult issues.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What is the removal of death? Why is removal of death confusing? Do you think death will go on for all eternity? Humans are sons of God. They were never supposed to die.

What was the penalty God gave to Adam?

"for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

It is just not immortality. That is thinking too small.

What are you--playing games? I asked you to be clear about whether we as Christians obtain immortality on earth during the Millennium? And you say that immortality is "too small?" This gets more confusing by the minute!

Why is removing sin from the earth such a conundrum? With Satan bound, sin gone, everlasting righteousness restored, and Adam's dead corruptible flesh no longer in existence, there are no sinners nor lost people. It is the restoration of the earth to a condition prior to Adam's disobedience. This life will be totally forgotten.

Don't you have any thought about the final rebellion at the end of the Millennium?

What is easier than matching up the Second Coming in the Olivet Discourse, with the 6th Seal?

Oh, it's easy to do. It's more difficult to be sure you're right.

No the whole purpose is A Sabbath Day of rest.

God gave sabbath rests to the land of Israel when he sent sinful Israel out of the land. Did that require sinlessness--no.

The purpose of the last 1992 years was to spread the Gospel across the earth. That time is up at the Second Coming.

Who said that? The Prophets indicated that the knowledge of the Lord will cover the earth as the waters cover the sea. That hasn't happened yet, and yet, the Gospel has been preached everywhere.

I am saying the dead do not return to earth, but remain in Paradise. You already agreed they remain in Paradise. No sense in making it more confusing than that.

I didn't say there isn't a return of the resurrected dead to earth, if only momentarily.

All I was trying to say is Adam, Noah, David, Moses, Peter, and Paul and all in between and since Adam to this day don't return and live on earth during the Millennium. Once they were granted entrance to Paradise, that became their home.

I believe that during the Millennium the glorified saints will be in "Paradise," but will return to earth at the end of the Millennium.

Nope. The earth is reset to before Adam disobeyed God. That is the whole point of destroying everything on earth at the Second Coming. The whole 1,000 years is set apart and Holy to God.

If the whole earth is annihilated, there won't be any Millennial age.

Once again, you are dragging Adam's dead sinful flesh into the Millennium. Stop doing that.

Your use of the term "Adam's dead sinful flesh" is not in my vocabulary, so I didn't use it. Is man, during the Millennial age, still afflicted by the Sin Nature? Yes. Otherwise, there could be no rebellion at the end of the Millennium. And there would be no need for the glorified Church to reign over the earth, since there would be no sin to govern.

No, incorruptible humans no longer bound by the bondage of sin and death.

Immortality means never dying. The last enemy is Death.

So, to be clear, you're saying that mankind doesn't become "immortal," but instead because "incorruptible." Isn't that the same thing?

Being glorified in Paradise is what you imply with immortality. Your term "mortal" is currently living in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. We are literally living death.

Yes, even saints die in the present age. What's the big deal if people die in the Millennial age? Incidentally, I never said "immortality" is "being glorified in Paradise." You said I implied that. I didn't say that.

The Millennium is free from this adamic bondage. Death is still there and instant for those who disobey any rule in the Millennium.

This gets stranger by the minute. Now you're saying that in the Millennium people die, but don't have the "adamic bondage?" Talk about walking out on a limb with nobody but the saw left to help.

Adam was safe as long as he did not disobey God. All born in the Millennium will be safe as long as they do not disobey Christ the King. All life back to the condition of life on earth before Adam disobeyed.

Sorry, but God has not revoked his curse on mankind, and He won't do so during the Millennium. Mankind cannot return to a sinless state without dying and becoming glorified, ie made immortal.

 

[Timtofly]

Your use of the term "Adam's dead sinful flesh" is not in my vocabulary, so I didn't use it. Is man, during the Millennial age, still afflicted by the Sin Nature? Yes. Otherwise, there could be no rebellion at the end of the Millennium. And there would be no need for the glorified Church to reign over the earth, since there would be no sin to govern.

I guess you are not going to understand how Adam was before he disobeyed God.

Do you accept Eve was a wicked lost person with a sin nature when she was deceived?

 

[Randy Kluth]

I guess you are not going to understand how Adam was before he disobeyed God.

Do you accept Eve was a wicked lost person with a sin nature when she was deceived?

Tim (if I can call you that?), I do understand your argument. You think there is a return back to from before the Fall. I argued that that was not feasible since God will not undo the curse. Some Christians do teach that, but I don't believe it's true. Every saint since Adam has had to die, has had a sin nature, has had to "overcome sin." We obtain innocence once again only through glorification, ie by obtaining an entirely new body, unconnected to our present mortal bodies. My position and, I believe, the Bible's position.

If we speculate what it would have been like if Eve or Adam had never sinned, we would have to say that they were still in a vulnerable position, not yet glorified, because they had not yet chosen to eat from the Tree of Life.

Eating from the Tree of Life is, I think, the equivalent of glorification. Only now, since the Fall, we must die prior to glorification. We become immortal only after we die, or after we leave this body (via the Rapture).

 

[Timtofly]

Tim (if I can call you that?), I do understand your argument. You think there is a return back to from before the Fall. I argued that that was not feasible since God will not undo the curse. Some Christians do teach that, but I don't believe it's true. Every saint since Adam has had to die, has had a sin nature, has had to "overcome sin." We obtain innocence once again only through glorification, ie by obtaining an entirely new body, unconnected to our present mortal bodies. My position and, I believe, the Bible's position.

If we speculate what it would have been like if Eve or Adam had never sinned, we would have to say that they were still in a vulnerable position, not yet glorified, because they had not yet chosen to eat from the Tree of Life.

Eating from the Tree of Life is, I think, the equivalent of glorification. Only now, since the Fall, we must die prior to glorification. We become immortal only after we die, or after we leave this body (via the Rapture).

Do you not accept body, soul, and spirit?

Do you not accept both a physical and spiritual death?

God can restore the physical death without the spiritual restoration. The Millennium is the physical restoration of creation on earth. The spiritual restoration is not necessary to remove sin, and a sin nature.

 

[Taken]

What are you--playing games? I asked you to be clear about whether we as Christians obtain immortality on earth during the Millennium?

Hi Randy ~

I think we have to review the circumstance of lead into the Millennium Reign - for the Millennium Reign.

Jesus’ Kingdom...King of kings, Lord of lords.
Place of Kingdom...Abrahams Promised Land.
Throne...king Davids everlasting throne, Jerusalem city.
Occupants in Kingdom...saints.
Saints...Israel (people), Gentile (people)...lived, died, raised immortal
Outside of Kingdom...areas, cities, nations developing, of mortals.
Mortals from where?...Remnant, Believers, Not destroyed during Trib.
....(ie Believers that made no “commitment of conversion”.)

Begin small population, like in the beginning, ie a head father, his family clan, marrying, population increase, moving, cities, governments, nations, neighboring nations.
Leaders (fathers, heads, governing heads, kings, lords), all from fathers, on down being governed according to King Jesus’ Word.

Yearly pilgrimage, of “head” to Jerusalem.

Suspect; Saints from Jesus’ Kingdom, perhaps minister to (clans, cities, nations) IDK.
HOW, because they are immortal?
Immortals, CAN taken upon themselves, the Likeness of a moral man, for purpose, of mortal men to see and hear.

Mortals Continue being born, living, (likely farming), dying, (in belief, in early beginning Millennium).. Aging no greater than 120 years.

*** Whole Point, when so similar to Beginning of Mankind??
*** VOID of Satan, devils, demonic angels presence and influence.

During Duration of 1,000 years...Nations expand, kings & lords, rule the nations, begin prospering, land fertile, food aplenty, wealth, luxury, comfort increases.......AND.......AGAIN.....”kings and lords” top of luxury, comfort, servants, void of physical laboring.....AGAIN become haughty, greedy, NO NEED FOR CONTINUING PILGRIMAGES TO Jerusalem...kings (some, all IDK), become LAX in exalting King Jesus, and desire “people of his kingdom”, to exalt “him”....
Teaching and according to The Lord’s Way, AGAIN, becomes not taught, irrelevant to the People at Large.

Punishment AGAIN to faltering nations, draughts, famines, diseases, etc., going to other nations for assistance, “losing their clout as their own power nations”...(become as “slaves, welfare, handout, etc.” recipients of other nations.)

Continues over centuries....Leadership Comfy kings, (Lax in ruling according to King Jesus) absorbing rulership over other nations, chaos mixing of people, (nationals/foreigners), the wealthy/laborer ~ wealthy /servant situation again...Animosity increases....Plots, Crimes, Distrust, need for “armies”, etc.

Ending of 1,000 years, Satan, devils Loosed.
(Remembering, every clan, city, nation BEGAN with knowledge of King Jesus, BEGAN with kings ruling according to Gods Word...
* SO, the people (some), were taught History, same as today of what it “used” to be “like” when kings/rulers Ruled according to Gods Word.

It’s funky again. Satan influences the Nations...(which is to say...influences the “kings and lords” of the Nations, and the people at large (become the pawns, like today, to do as the “leaders” says or be punished themselves....(imprisoned, necessities cut off, killed).

Satans “influences”... WAR AGAINST Jesus’ Kingdom!!!
WHY? Because nothing new...World chaos of the mortal kingdoms, IS ALL Gods Fault!! As some today say. God could fix everything, flourish every nation with necessities, stop every disease, comfort, Homes and Big screen TVS for everybody!! (LoL).
And that IS TRUE...except for the fact...God greatly blesses BELIEVERS, not freely choosing REJECTERS .

THAT is when ALL Nations Come Against (ISRAEL) ? No. (That is earlier during the Tribulation)
THAT is when ALL Nations Come Against Jesus’ Kingdom ? Yes.
...They (anti-Christ Jesus mortals) be destroyed BY the Word of God.
THAT is followed BY All demonic angels Coming Against (Jesus’ army) so to speak....Jesus’ Holy Angels.
...They (Demonic angels)....and Jesus’ Holy Angels Battle...
Destroyed ? No. Angels can not die.
Demonic Angels all sent to the Pits of Hell forever, and forever Separated from God.

Then is the FINAL End of mortal LIFE on Earth.
Then is the FINAL Resurrection, of the Saved raised in immortality.
Then is the FINAL Resurrection, of the UnSaved raised in damnation.
~ Judgements, of body’s, of souls, of spirits...Rewards, Burning of unworthy works, Heavens renewed, Heavens opened (Barrier between Heaven and Earth no longer) Earth renewed, (Mts. Oceans no longer), New city Jerusalem, King Lord God sits in Jerusalem Throne, rules the World of His Faithful saints, according to God Will of Righteousness.

I asked you to be clear about whether we as Christians obtain immortality on earth during the Millennium?

Nothing to do with the term “CHRISTIANS”.
Some (Converted NOW), having Died, crucified with Christ Jesus...
ARE Removed from the face of the Earth PRYOR to the Tribulation.
* The Tribulation BEGINS, with the Wrath of the Lamb (SEALS)...
* The Lambs Anger and Wrath waxes great. BECAUSE men REJECTED Him...Remember, The Lamb of God, came to SAVE....and Observe, the Majority, Reject Becoming Converted.
True MANY believe, but do not VOW to commit to their BELIEF.
(The Lamb gets His Revenge First).
* AND some WILL, during that portion of the Trib, get to getting, Turn to Believe, and others Who DO Believe, WILL Make their Commitment/Vow of Belief....and thus DIE, during the Wrath Chaos...BE SAVED, for (Physically) DYING IN Belief.
* AND sure some will DIE, still rejecting Belief in Christ Jesus, and they be damned, having died in their sin (Against God).

Continues the same during the Trumps...except Wrath increases.
Devils Wrath (his own anger for being rejected)
Also is time during which God sends His Witnesses & a Lamb & 144,000 to fulfill Gods Prophecy to SAVE ISRAEL (His People)...
They becoming Saved...Yet being Killed bodily, by, Through, of...Satan’s armies, short time, to destroy and kill.

No, issue....A man’s BODY MUST DIE, BEFORE it CAN RECEIVE SALVATION...catch 22. Satan allowed to KILL men...But the men will already BE VOWED unto the Lord God, and immediately Saved, when they ARE Killed.

Or maybe more like 25 cents

 

[Taken]

The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.
OP^

Premillennialism?
Conflicting VIEWS of the word itself.

@Paul Malcomson
Since you are calling “modern-day” Premillennialists Heretics...

DEFINE what you mean by “modern-day” Premillennialism...
AND “pre-modern day” Premillennialism...

 

[Randy Kluth]

Do you not accept body, soul, and spirit?

Do you not accept both a physical and spiritual death?

God can restore the physical death without the spiritual restoration. The Millennium is the physical restoration of creation on earth. The spiritual restoration is not necessary to remove sin, and a sin nature.

Not only is that wrong, it is the antithesis to Christian Salvation. The world cannot be restored back to a state of innocence apart from physical regeneration. And that only comes for those who are both spiritually and physically regenerated.

Yes, God can do all kinds of things for non-Christians. But He won't undo the curse of sin apart from both spiritual and physical restoration.

Yes, the Millennial earth will experience a measure of physical restoration. But this is not in any way a new creation yet--just the same old earth at peace--still mortal and sinful.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy ~

Hi brother--thanks for the 25cents. Here's mine. The millennium is simply an extension of the present age--no new creation but with a new set of Christians given birth--a mortal, still sinful world but without Satan's harassment and provocations. I can't say how sin will effect the world--probably trouble, but no international war, and no persecution of Christian kingdoms.

I believe the world will consist of Christian and non-Christian nations. Christian nations fulfill God's promise to Abraham to have many nations of faith. Israel will be one of those Christian nations, yet not superior to any others.

The rise of nations against God's Kingdom will likely be focused on Jerusalem, a future symbol of international Christianity. God will destroy the rebellion.

I'm not a Pretrib, so I think the Church will face the Antichrist. The Church will obtain the right to judge from heaven during the Millennium, keeping Satan bound and Christian nations free of harassment. It is our testimony of resistance to sin that earns the right to judge, and it is our word that maintains this restraint of evil.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Don't be silly. These are adult topics. It's how you discuss them, in a mature way or not, that makes them "like children" or not. Otherwise, maybe you shouldn't be here yourself, because this place is for debating difficult issues.

You’re right, in that the topic is appropriate. But, It’s some of the responses that are childish. A Christian would welcome anyone to listen, not to say “maybe you shouldn’t be here”. Asking those that are childish to behave (without naming them) is a lesson in respect and love.
I hope you can emulate love and respect Randy

 

[Taken]

Hi brother--thanks for the 25cents. Here's mine. The millennium is simply an extension of the present age--no new creation but with a new set of Christians given birth--a mortal, still sinful world but without Satan's harassment and provocations. I can't say how sin will effect the world--probably trouble, but no international war, and no persecution of Christian kingdoms.

I believe the world will consist of Christian and non-Christian nations. Christian nations fulfill God's promise to Abraham to have many nations of faith. Israel will be one of those Christian nations, yet not superior to any others.

The rise of nations against God's Kingdom will likely be focused on Jerusalem, a future symbol of international Christianity. God will destroy the rebellion.

I'm not a Pretrib, so I think the Church will face the Antichrist. The Church will obtain the right to judge from heaven during the Millennium, keeping Satan bound and Christian nations free of harassment. It is our testimony of resistance to sin that earns the right to judge, and it is our word that maintains this restraint of evil.

I do believe in the pre-Trib rapture. As well as Saving during the Trib.
Don’t think “Christian” will be the term applying to those occupying Jesus’ Kingdom, Probably “saints”. Can’t say what terms Nations outside of the Kingdom will use, Probably “citizens of ______ Nation, and as Religious names, IDK.
I see the points you raise, which all seem to have some validity, but somewhat mixed in the Big Picture.

God Divided in the Beginning. (Pretty much everything, from night and day, up and down, to people, Hebrew / Gentile).
Jesus continued the Divide...further, beyond Tribesmen (Jews) & Gentiles...with intent. (Luke 12:51 ~ John 7:43 ~ others as well).
Further (Religiously) Jews and Jews divided AND Gentiles and Gentiles divided.

Nearing the end days as we know them on this earth...
Every human has to be considered, from the beginning to the ending.
Hebrews, Gentiles, ancient days, during Jesus’ Days, (Jews learning something new/ Gentiles learning something new), the old gods, the atheists, the rejections, false teachers, true teachers, the oppressing as we see exponentially in these days....
Final Goal - Separation of the Divided.
Final Goal - any man Wholly, body, soul, spirit, with or without God.

**Historically men while alive were choosing what they wanted as their destiny...Forever, with or without God...Hinged on belief on the day they physically died.
**Currently men while alive are choosing what they want as their destiny.. Forever, with or without God...Hinged on belief on the day they physically died.
** Jesus gave men a NEW OPTION while alive...Crucifixion with Jesus, accounted as dead, THUS able to receive their forever Forgiveness, their soul saved, their spirit quickened, and the assured Promise their body would be Raised in Glory......on the day the Lord God Raises their body...(still living or having become physically dead.)

* The Jews have primarily rejected Jesus as the Christ, IF alive during the Trib they will be preached to, of Jesus, by their own “Jews”....
(Two witness, 144,000)... which doesn’t concern Gentiles. Saving, then killed for their belief.
* The Gentile Believers (but not vowed Converted), suffer in the Trib, confess belief...become killed for their belief.

* Those (Jew or Gentile) Converted...are already Saved...no requirement for them to confess belief and be bodily killed, “then” saved...No purpose for them to be ON Earth, and suffer God or Christ being Angry with them for Not Believing....(Because they already vowed their Belief).

* The Trib is all about the Lambs Anger, Satans Anger, Gods Anger...
Each having a stake in WANTING men to make a vow of ALLEGIANCE of Belief IN Them.

* Just saying, the end of days get complicated because it must deal with the destiny of every person ever born of how and why they are eternally separated.....with or without God.
(And the same applies to separating forever Holy & demonic angels).

* Humans have never had a Total Separation FROM demonic angels.
* And that is the purpose of the Millennial Reign. One last check off, on mans List of “excuses” for not believing. No influence of Satan or demonic angels.
* Same thing WHEN “the Son of man” Returns, He is “SEEN” by all eyes, who are living and dead, Sitting on a Cloud. Immediately, the living can confess belief and be saved. Immediately, those marked with Satan’s mark, the dead, will also Belief & bow to Him....but they can not make their vow of Allegiance to Him or be saved.
* That accomplishes two fold...1) Prophecy, ALL will see Him and bow to Him. 2) All will not be Saved.

* The Final Separating of the Divided has been occurring since the beginning. (Meaning per individuals separation, because their physical life ended.)
* The Separation BY the Lord God, occurs Heavily, during the Express Tribulation God sends down from Heaven...(7 yrs) and further during the 1,000 years more divisions....and after the 1,000 years further Separation BY the Lord God.....Completing the Final Separation.
THEN...new world.

It’s a long drawn out process. Addressing each era, persons of each era,
The Who, what, when, why, where....up to this day to the Trib, and 1,000 year reign to be followed by Judgements.....Yeah or damned.
Charting that...is a tedious feat...and ends up to be a chart about 30 ft long, while Trying to keep track of who’s who’s, the eras, etc. that you don’t lose track of the sense of what you’re doing. we’ve done that, took over a year. I know others who have also done the same. Purpose is to view the BIG PICTURE of end of days....and content with where ones own personal decisions and freewill choices are settled within the chart...finality, with or without the Lord God.

* So see some of the events you mention are so, but not necessarily applicable to who you apply the event as effecting them.

Think I’m hinging on 50 cents worth..
God Bless,
Taken

 

[Keraz]

God’s Plan for our Time:

As the years pass by, we may wonder what it is that the Lord has next for His creation. We know the story of how He destroyed an early civilization by the means of a great flood. Jesus prophesied that in the time of the end it will again be ‘as in the days of Noah’. We can’t know how bad that civilization was, but it seems they just got on with life much the same as we do today. From God’s point of view, their problem was they failed to acknowledge Him or respect His Laws, so their Creator simply wiped them out and virtually started over again, just like anything made that turns out defective is remoulded, or with breeding; try a new bloodline. Isaiah 64:8, Jeremiah 18:6-7, Romans 9:20-21

So are the world’s people today as bad as those in Noah’s day? It seems likely, as evidenced by the decline in moral standards and the widespread disbelief in the Creator God. Jeremiah 6:18-19, Psalms 10:13, Ezekiel 20:39


Several Bible verses tell us that God the Creator takes a keen interest in what is happening on earth. Revelation 2:23b, Job 34:21-22, Proverbs 15:3, Psalms 11:4-5, Jer. 32:18-19 In our perfectly balanced and organised universe, He is playing out a drama, a set piece carefully orchestrated and arranged so that each player can choose their own role. Each person is given a conscience; a moral intuition to be aware of what is right and what is wrong, so we all make our choices as to how we live our lives.

Today, the whole world is in a precarious state, with a population of over 7 billion. There is the capacity to produce enough food and provide a reasonable lifestyle for that many, but not the altruistic desire to do so and human mismanagement exacerbates the problems. Therefore the situation deteriorates, life is difficult and short for most and only relatively few live a good and fulfilling life, while all mostly do not acknowledge the one true God or keep His Laws. Over 100 Bible prophesies say how God will judge the nations and punish His enemies, to once again ‘reset civilization’. Deuteronomy 32:35, Psalms 18:7-15, Isaiah 2:12, Isaiah 30:25-28, Habakkuk 3:12, Zephaniah 3:8, Hebrews 10:27, 2 Thess. 1:8, Jeremiah 23:19-20, Revelation 14:17-20

Note that most of the prophesies about the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, which is the next prophesied event we can expect: being the fulfilment of Psalms 83, Micah 4:11-12, Rev. 6:12-17, state that this time He will use fire to ‘set the heavens ablaze, the earth will be enveloped in flames and all that is in it will be brought to judgement’. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1, Isaiah 66:15-16, Zephaniah 3:8


But the Lord’s people have a Powerful Advocate, He promises to protect and save His righteous people. Jer. 50:33-34, Isa. 51:16, Nahum 1:7, Psalms 60:4-5, Zech. 9:15-16
They will go to live in all of the holy Land; Isaiah 35, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

Psalms 30:1-5 I shall exalt You Lord, for You have lifted me up and not let enemies prevail. I cried out to You and You healed me, You saved my life as I was sinking into the abyss. Sing praises to the Lord, all you His loyal servants, give thanks to His holy name. In His anger there is punishment, but in His favour there is life. There may be distress at nightfall, but the morning will bring rejoicing.

The Truth is invaluable.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You’re right, in that the topic is appropriate. But, It’s some of the responses that are childish. A Christian would welcome anyone to listen, not to say “maybe you shouldn’t be here”. Asking those that are childish to behave (without naming them) is a lesson in respect and love.
I hope you can emulate love and respect Randy

Absolutely, I can show respect. And I welcome your input. What I don't welcome is a condemnation of any and all discussion that happens to get heated at times.

It is very appropriate to identify childish behavior after multiple warnings. But it should be very specific in identifying the culprits.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I do believe in the pre-Trib rapture. As well as Saving during the Trib.
Don’t think “Christian” will be the term applying to those occupying Jesus’ Kingdom, Probably “saints”. Can’t say what terms Nations outside of the Kingdom will use, Probably “citizens of ______ Nation, and as Religious names, IDK.
I see the points you raise, which all seem to have some validity, but somewhat mixed in the Big Picture.

God Divided in the Beginning. (Pretty much everything, from night and day, up and down, to people, Hebrew / Gentile).
Jesus continued the Divide...further, beyond Tribesmen (Jews) & Gentiles...with intent. (Luke 12:51 ~ John 7:43 ~ others as well).
Further (Religiously) Jews and Jews divided AND Gentiles and Gentiles divided.

Nearing the end days as we know them on this earth...
Every human has to be considered, from the beginning to the ending.
Hebrews, Gentiles, ancient days, during Jesus’ Days, (Jews learning something new/ Gentiles learning something new), the old gods, the atheists, the rejections, false teachers, true teachers, the oppressing as we see exponentially in these days....
Final Goal - Separation of the Divided.
Final Goal - any man Wholly, body, soul, spirit, with or without God.

**Historically men while alive were choosing what they wanted as their destiny...Forever, with or without God...Hinged on belief on the day they physically died.
**Currently men while alive are choosing what they want as their destiny.. Forever, with or without God...Hinged on belief on the day they physically died.
** Jesus gave men a NEW OPTION while alive...Crucifixion with Jesus, accounted as dead, THUS able to receive their forever Forgiveness, their soul saved, their spirit quickened, and the assured Promise their body would be Raised in Glory......on the day the Lord God Raises their body...(still living or having become physically dead.)

* The Jews have primarily rejected Jesus as the Christ, IF alive during the Trib they will be preached to, of Jesus, by their own “Jews”....
(Two witness, 144,000)... which doesn’t concern Gentiles. Saving, then killed for their belief.
* The Gentile Believers (but not vowed Converted), suffer in the Trib, confess belief...become killed for their belief.

* Those (Jew or Gentile) Converted...are already Saved...no requirement for them to confess belief and be bodily killed, “then” saved...No purpose for them to be ON Earth, and suffer God or Christ being Angry with them for Not Believing....(Because they already vowed their Belief).

* The Trib is all about the Lambs Anger, Satans Anger, Gods Anger...
Each having a stake in WANTING men to make a vow of ALLEGIANCE of Belief IN Them.

* Just saying, the end of days get complicated because it must deal with the destiny of every person ever born of how and why they are eternally separated.....with or without God.
(And the same applies to separating forever Holy & demonic angels).

* Humans have never had a Total Separation FROM demonic angels.
* And that is the purpose of the Millennial Reign. One last check off, on mans List of “excuses” for not believing. No influence of Satan or demonic angels.
* Same thing WHEN “the Son of man” Returns, He is “SEEN” by all eyes, who are living and dead, Sitting on a Cloud. Immediately, the living can confess belief and be saved. Immediately, those marked with Satan’s mark, the dead, will also Belief & bow to Him....but they can not make their vow of Allegiance to Him or be saved.
* That accomplishes two fold...1) Prophecy, ALL will see Him and bow to Him. 2) All will not be Saved.

* The Final Separating of the Divided has been occurring since the beginning. (Meaning per individuals separation, because their physical life ended.)
* The Separation BY the Lord God, occurs Heavily, during the Express Tribulation God sends down from Heaven...(7 yrs) and further during the 1,000 years more divisions....and after the 1,000 years further Separation BY the Lord God.....Completing the Final Separation.
THEN...new world.

It’s a long drawn out process. Addressing each era, persons of each era,
The Who, what, when, why, where....up to this day to the Trib, and 1,000 year reign to be followed by Judgements.....Yeah or damned.
Charting that...is a tedious feat...and ends up to be a chart about 30 ft long, while Trying to keep track of who’s who’s, the eras, etc. that you don’t lose track of the sense of what you’re doing. we’ve done that, took over a year. I know others who have also done the same. Purpose is to view the BIG PICTURE of end of days....and content with where ones own personal decisions and freewill choices are settled within the chart...finality, with or without the Lord God.

* So see some of the events you mention are so, but not necessarily applicable to who you apply the event as effecting them.

Think I’m hinging on 50 cents worth..
God Bless,
Taken

Yea, okay you have 50 cents more, and I'm all out of spare change. I really can't be too specific about what the Millennium will hold. I just see it as a continuation of the world as it presently is, though without interference from Satan. I suppose you could be right that mankind is judged at that time for what they do without pressure from Satan?

The present age is gathering a witness of Christians leading to the judgment of this present age. When it is over at the 2nd Coming, a new age will begin, and the glorified saints will be, I think, somewhere else. On earth, it will reflect pretty much what we have today except that God's promises to Abraham will finally come to fulfillment, something that has failed to last in the present age.

Israel will become a Christian nation and never be destroyed again. And Christian nations will re-emerge in a more lasting way, without the pressure of resistance from non-Christian countries.

So yes, I can call them "Christian" in the next age. But they will have to start from scratch, as "nominal Christians," discovering at Christ's Coming what true Christian living is. All true Christians in the present age will be gone at that time, either dead or raptured. A lot of guesswork...... Thanks for your thoughts.