The context of Colossians 1:16 is about all authority that was created by the Christ. Not the all creations planets etc..., that was created by God.
What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God
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The context of Colossians 1:16 is about all authority that was created by the Christ. Not the all creations planets etc..., that was created by God.
I don't need to read Philippians again. But if you can come up with a verse that tells us why Jesus had to be God. Not that the Bible says he is God. But why he had to be God. It would be great. A verse. Not why you think.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Incorrect
By him (ἐν αὐτῶ)
Rev., in Him. In is not instrumental but local; not denying the instrumentality, but putting the fact of creation with reference to its sphere and center. In Him, within the sphere of His personality, resides the creative will and the creative energy, and in that sphere the creative act takes place. Thus creation was dependent on Him. In Christ is a very common phrase with Paul to express the Church's relation to Him. Thus “one body in Christ,” Rom_12:5; “fellow-workers in Jesus Christ,” Rom_16:3. Compare Rom_16:7, Rom_16:9, Rom_16:11; 1Co_1:30; 1Co_4:15, etc.
All things (τὰ πάντα)
The article gives a collective sense - the all, the whole universe of things. Without the article it would be all things severally.
Were created (ἐκτίσθη)
See on Joh_1:3. The aorist tense, denoting a definite historical event.
Visible - invisible
Not corresponding to earthly and heavenly. There are visible things in heaven, such as the heavenly bodies, and invisible things on earth, such as the souls of men.
Thrones, dominions, principalities, powers (θρόνοι, κυριότητες, ἀρχαὶ, ἐξουσίαι)
Compare Eph_1:21; Eph_3:10; Eph_6:12; 1Co_15:24; Rom_8:38; Col_2:10, Col_2:15; Tit_3:1. In Tit_3:1, they refer to earthly dignities, and these are probably included in 1Co_15:24. It is doubtful whether any definite succession of rank is intended. At any rate it is impossible to accurately define the distinctions. It has been observed that wherever principalities (ἀρχαὶ) and powers (ἐξουσίαι) occur together, principalities always precedes, and that δύναμις power (see Eph_1:21) when occurring with either of the two, follows it; or, when occurring with both, follows both. The primary reference is, no doubt, to the celestial orders; but the expressions things on earth, and not only in this world in the parallel passage, Eph_1:21, indicate that it may possibly include earthly dignities. Principalities and powers are used of both good and evil powers. See Eph_3:10; Eph_6:12; Col_2:15. The passage is aimed at the angel-worship of the Colossians (see Introduction); showing that while they have been discussing the various grades of angels which fill the space between God and men, and depending on them as media of communion with God, they have degraded Christ who is above them all, and is the sole mediator. Compare Heb_1:5-14, where the ideas of the Son as Creator and as Lord of the angels are also combined. Thrones occurs only here in enumerations of this kind. It seems to indicate the highest grade. Compare Rev_4:4, θρόνοι thrones, A.V. seats, and see note. Thrones here probably means the enthroned angels. Dominions or dominations, also Eph_1:21. Principalities or princedoms. In Rom_8:38, this occurs without powers which usually accompanies it.
All things (τὰ πάντα)
Recapitulating. Collectively as before.
Were created (ἔκτισται)
Rev., correctly, have been created. The perfect tense instead of the aorist, as at the beginning of the verse. “The latter describes the definite, historical act of creation; the former the continuous and present relations of creation to the Creator” (Lightfoot). So Joh_1:3. “Without Him did not any thing come into being (ἐγένετο, aorist) which hath come into being” (and exists, γέγονεν, see note).
By Him and for Him (δι' αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν)
Rev., better, through Him and unto Him. See on Rom_11:36. Compare in Him at the beginning of the verse. There Christ was represented as the conditional cause of all things. All things came to pass within the sphere of His personality and as dependent upon it. Here He appears as the mediating cause; through Him, as 1Co_8:6. Unto Him. All things, as they had their beginning in Him, tend to Him as their consummation, to depend on and serve Him. Compare Rev_22:13; and Heb_2:10; “for whose sake (δι' ὃν) and through whose agency (δι' οὗ) are all things” Rev., “for whom and through whom.” See also Eph_1:10, Eph_1:23; Eph_4:10; Php_2:9-11; 1Co_15:28. The false teachers maintained that the universe proceeded from God indirectly, through a succession of emanations. Christ, at best, was only one of these. As such, the universe could not find its consummation in Him.
Vincent
In Christ is a very common phrase with Paul to express the Church's relation to Him. Thus “one body in Christ,” Rom_12:5; “fellow-workers in Jesus Christ,” Rom_16:3. Compare Rom_16:7, Rom_16:9, Rom_16:11; 1Co_1:30; 1Co_4:15, etc.
In Christ means walking by the spirit of Christ... correct?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Peterlag said: ↑
Not the all creations planets etc..., that was created by God.
I showed you that you are in error, gave you the answer, and now to deflect?
Are you a born again Christian? How did you get "born again"? Can you enter your mother's womb a second time and be born again?
Obviously the answer is no you can't...you are born again of His Spirit. And now you are a NEW creation...brand new...brand spanking new creation...
2 Corinthians 5 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹⁷ Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
¹⁸ And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
¹⁹ To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
As God was in Christ, and Christ is in us, then we are now His sons and daughters by the rebirth through our faith in Jesus.
You cannot understand Jesus's existence and that God is in Him and He is in God...they are one...and if it is difficult to understand Jesus existence as God in the flesh then how can you understand your own born again of His Spirit? Which Spirit? God the Father or Jesus the Christ?
They are in each other...hmmmm it just keeps getting more complicated...yes?
It is by faith that you believe...because you cannot satisfy the logical reasoning of the carnal mind with an illogical answer.
I believe Jesus spelled it out for us numerous times...in scripture and yet people continue to be blind.
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BTW, your thread has been moved to the appropriate forum. And any future thread denying the Trinity must be started in the Unorthodox Forum.
Johann
Well-Known Member
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Sealed by the Holy Spirit...
Act 13:2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.
Interesting to note that it was the Holy Spirit that said...
Act 13:4 So they, being sent forth by the Holy Ghost, departed unto Seleucia; and from thence they sailed to Cyprus.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 10:19 While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee.
Act 10:20 Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.
Act 11:11 And, behold, immediately there were three men already come unto the house where I was, sent from Caesarea unto me.
Act 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Very interesting, but forgive me for jutting in@Heart2Soul
God was manifest in the flesh.....Jesus was Son of Man and Son of God. Your argument is with the scriptures and with God....suggest you ask Him for understanding. If you know Him then ASK Him, if you don't know Him then seek Him. Jesus said except you be born again of the Spirit you cannot enter the kingdom of God.
You are forgetting that man was made in God's image from the get-go, so the horse and man analogy doesn't apply. My praise and thanks to the Lord for His wisdom, He is so good.
RLT63
Well-Known Member
The scriptures are more important to me than any creed.
Thank you. To say that it was a splendid time for all would be not to say enough about it.
You may or may not have heard me say that I was raised Southern Baptist. You may or may not know much about Southern Baptists. In that trinitarian culture the “term” brother” carries a certain and unmistakeable connotation. Whenever someone addresses me as “brother” it is always that connotation which springs first to mind.
What do you mean when you call me “brother”? From your perspective, what is the connotation of that word in our relationship?
The Shema is my creed; the creed of Judaism. The Shema is not a trinitarian creed nor is it the New Covenant / Testament.
The Messiah is a created being and my savior. That you’re unable to comprehend how that is possible doesn’t change the reality.
P.S. Do you think it’s possible for someone to be a Christian and not believe in the Trinity?
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
No fallacy charge can be made when you don’t make an argument or continue to make groundless assertions, I.e., not grounded in Scripture.
I asked for a Scripture verse that says what you claim. That you provide none tells the story.
Occasionally I don’t understand you but on the whole I think I do.
That’s incorrect.
I don’t believe Messiah is a created angel. I believe the Messiah is a created human being, a human person.
When I’m probed there is found to be error from the trinitarian perspective, the binitarian perspective and, in some cases, the unitarian perspective.
When you are probed there is found to be error from various perspectives too.
Once found, I’ve never left “my” Mashiach. I pray that I never will.
The first Adam became a living soul by the breath of God.
Jesus, the second Adam, was the breath of God. [''All scripture is God breathed....''] ''THE WORD made [and literally made/created] flesh.
By that one man, Adam , sin entered the world. And that was our first death. Sin separated us from our source.
Not actually because all is of God. Rather figuratively.
This world, material reality, blinded us.
By the second Adam, Jesus, sin was overcome.
Which is why The Word became flesh.
'' For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.''
'' Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being” the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.''
''But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. ''
''The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. ''
''As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven.''
''Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven.''
''I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.''
''For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.''
''For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:
“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
''The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.''
''But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ .''
That is why God became a man of flesh, without our sin nature.
The unblemished lamb.
For as all flesh [human] is dead in sin, a perfect ''human'' ,without our sin nature, spoke of what was to come.
Redemption. Rebirth as a new creation in the anointed.[Christ]
The second Adam, in flesh, was put to death by his enemies for the sin of Blasphemy.
The law made that possible.
His enemies did not believe he was God, or their Messiah.
So, the flesh of the ''man'' was crucified for ''his'' sins.
In truth, the second Adam , being the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, was unblemished. Without spot. Sinless.
Which is how he was the propoitiation for the sins of the whole world.
To his enemies he appeared to die the second death all humans suffered under the law.
The second Adam overcame death because he was not first born dead in sin.
The law traps us in the focus on the flesh and its faults due to its sin nature.
The law punishes following the lead of the flesh. That's all the offspring of first Adam know by nature.
Which is how, like the scape goat of old, he took the sins of the world upon himself.
What appeared to others attending his crucifixion to kill him , as it did scores of other of perishable dust before him, was instead taken into the grave for all eternity and left there.
Deaths sting lost its power. So too did the Lord over flesh, and law breaking, Satan.
Because after three days the second Adam resurrected in his glorified body.
[''The flesh returns to the dust from which it sprang. The soul to God who gave it.'']
The second Adam was the breath of God, that living soul.
Evidence death, mortal realm of sin and the perishable flesh, was no longer first.
The imperishable living soul lives forever.
By God's grace, we were saved through faith. Which is why the second Adam tells us, no one comes to the father but through him.
He's the bridge.
By the first Adam we came through into this world of flesh, dead in its perishable sin nature.
Through the second Adam we return from whence our reborn soul sprang.
Because the second Adam paid the price of our sinful flesh.
And that leaves our soul to return ,through him,his sacrifice as us in flesh, to the father that gave us our soul.
Because the veil of blindness, flesh is all, is lifted.
We know, by the second Adams example and sacrifice, we are more than perishable flesh and sin filled appetites.
Which is why we who are now carrying that seed [awareness] of our true origin, God/God's breath, soul, within cannot be dead like we were before.
Unconscious of righteousness, God's ''law''.
Which is why we do not sin. Those who sin do not know him and his seed is not in them.
No, we're not perfect now.
Rather, we are aware!
Of the difference.
Between righteousness, and wrong/unrighteousness, according to God's way.[law]
Which is how when we do misstep, we are aware. And it grieves us. And we repent. We are not condemned though.
Because Jesus, the second Adam, paid our price with his blood that covers all sins.
The blood is the life.
Blood of animals covered sins B.C. [Before Christ]
Christ's blood erased them. And they are eternally under that blood that sealed the redemption covenant.
Our eternal salvation is[.b] eternal.[/B]
We know when we do wrong because our consciousness is no longer trapped in the perishable prison of flesh,separated from God for thinking this world and our self is god.
Creator of our life by choice for gratification and acquisitions.
Therein is the difference.
And why God had to be the second Adam. God's breath of eternal life.
Genesis 2:7 ''Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. ''
1 Corinthians 8:6 Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
LANGUAGE USAGE. Do you realize how this parallels saying Lizbeth’s likeness is manifested in a drivers license?
The ID is not lizbeth, just a manifestation.
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