What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[Peterlag]

The Trinity is based on the fact that there are 3 that bear record in Heaven, The Father, The Word/Christ, and The Holy Spirit.

That fact can only be denied by someone who refuses to accept reality. As I said, the word "Trinity" is not found in Scripture, it's a reference of identification to The Father, The Son/Christ, and The Holy Spirit, what is referred to as the Triune Godhead/Trinity.

I've studied the history and will ask the question, whose account of history is that? I get my information from Scripture, not the accounts of uninspired history outside the pages of Scripture.

Anytime you read the word "begotten" in Scripture it is referring to the incarnation of Christ, Him becoming man.

As far as the "duel nature" of Christ, the only person who could describe that is the one Christ chose to give His revelation, that revelation is the meaning of the New Covenant, and that chosen person was Paul of Tarsus, the apostle Paul.

Peter, James, John, and all the rest of the apostles did not have this knowledge. They had a partial knowledge being that God had chosen to grant salvation to the Gentile world. All the Jews at this point believed salvation was only for the Jew.

The truth is that the Apostles learned from Paul the meaning of the New Covenant just as we do, but they also had the great privilege of hearing some of it directly from his mouth. Peter tells us that some of the things Paul said were hard to be understood, and some wrestle with it to their own destruction. Peter didn't understand all of it because it wasn't given to him to understand, but he knew Paul had been given this knowledge and accepted that fact.

Do you have a verse to go along with any of this?

 

[Peterlag]

Very welcome, friend. I think it's pretty solid exegesis, though the people who want the verse to support innate immortality of the soul deny it altogether, so it's nice to have someone else see it as well.

Can you explain what innate immortality of the soul is?

 

[Brakelite]

Hunter is the son of Joe. Doesn't make him POTUS.

True, but it does make him man.

 

[Brakelite]

I don't think that anyone disputes that the one God-- The Father/God had a son. I think we all agree that God sent His son out of love for the world, just as scripture tells us. It's the nature of the son that folks disagree on. I'm telling you that the son, is of the same nature as the Father. The Father is spirit, the son that was sent therefore is also spirit. He's not flesh. He's not some sort of weird half-breed half-man, half-god where the Holy Spirit impregnated a human woman who then gave birth to this hybrid being in a category all of it's own. Scripture IS clear-- spirit gives birth to spirit, flesh gives birth to flesh and the two are different. God sent His son-- spirit to the world. And that spirit is what gives us Life.

KJV 1 John 4:2-3
2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

True, but it does make him man.

Well of course. If it made him duck,that would be weird.

Why is it so hard to accept Jesus was God,and that is the only way we could come to his Salvation.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Why Jesus didn't have a sin nature.
Hebtews 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

The OP question answered again.
Philippians 2:6-8 Who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Galatians 4:1I mean that the heir, as long as he is a child, is no different from a slave,though he is the owner of everything, 2 but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by his father. 3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world. 4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, so that we might receive adoption as sons. 6 And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.

Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 1 - English Standard Version

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. 9 For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, 10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Zechariah 5:9 Some angelic beings are women

This is a prophetic vision and the women are said to have the wings of a stork.....very different to the description of Angels.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Hello Aunty Jane! I don't want to butt in your conversation but I feel it's important to address your post.

Rev. 3:14
"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;"

This is definitely referring to Christ.

I know....

"The beginning of the creation of God" is not referring to Christ being created! It is referring to Christ as the Creator.

Please show me where it says that.....how is it referring to Christ as Creator?
"Archē" means "beginning"....it doesn't mean "beginner" or "originator", it means the first of something, like the "beginning" of creation.....its not a difficult word to define....unless of course you are trying to promote the trinity when the Bible does not teach that Jesus is anything but "the son of God"....that is what he calls himself and that is what his God calls him as well as identifying himself as his Father......is that a difficult relationship to understand?

Evolution is a failure because it has no proof of the first cause in creation. It has no first cause because Christ is the first cause.

There is only one Creator and there is one facilitator of that creation.....
Colossians 1:15-17 says that Christ is the one "through" whom all things were created. If you accomplish something "through" someone else, that one becomes an agent. Like when you buy a house, you can ask which agent you bought that house "through"....?
An agent serves the interests of two parties, working to facilitate an exchange between them that is beneficial to both. The earth was not made for God but was made for man.....everything was made for his enjoyment of life here. Sinful humans messed it all up.

"The beginning of the creation of God." It's referring to Christ as the beginning/the first cause of creation, the Creator.

That is not what the scripture says unless you start trying to make it say what it clearly doesn't. Please tell me where it says "first cause".....?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I agree with almost everything you've said above, the Michael part included. But here...

In contradistinction to your statement above, the very fact that Jesus is, as you also concur with, the Son of God, is the greatest testament and affirmation of His deity of anything else in scripture. He was begotten. Your huge hole is your insistence that begotten is the same as created.

I have no idea why that offends the trinitarians here....that God created his "only begotten son" means that he Fathered a son...what is so terrible about that? "created" is not a dirty word....it is what God does...he is THE Creator of all things, including his "firstborn"...if Jesus is a "firstborn" then we should look in the Bible for other "sons of God"....do we find them? Yes we do, but none of them are as unique as their Commander. "Only begotten" means that this firstborn son was his Father's only direct creation because the scriptures tell us plainly that all things came into existence "through" that one.....the "master workman" by his Father's side in Proverbs 8:30-31....the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26.

 

[Charlie24]

I know....


Please show me where it says that.....how is it referring to Christ as Creator?
"Archē" means "beginning"....it doesn't mean "beginner" or "originator", it means the first of something, like the "beginning" of creation.....its not a difficult word to define....unless of course you are trying to promote the trinity when the Bible does not teach that Jesus is anything but "the son of God"....that is what he calls himself and that is what his God calls him as well as identifying himself as his Father......is that a difficult relationship to understand?

There is only one Creator and there is one facilitator of that creation.....
Colossians 1:15-17 says that Christ is the one "through" whom all things were created. If you accomplish something "through" someone else, that one becomes an agent. Like when you buy a house, you can ask which agent you bought that house "through"....?
An agent serves the interests of two parties, working to facilitate an exchange between them that is beneficial to both. The earth was not made for God but was made for man.....everything was made for his enjoyment of life here. Sinful humans messed it all up.


That is not what the scripture says unless you start trying to make it say what it clearly doesn't. Please tell me where it says "first cause".....?

If you can't see it, then you just can't see it. You're not the only one!

 

[RLT63]

This is a prophetic vision and the women are said to have the wings of a stork.....very different to the description of Angels.

Yes a stork is an unclean animal they may be demonic but they are still Angel like. Yes it is a vision but you said God appeared in visions. Revelation is a vision is it any less real ?

 

[Charlie24]

I have no idea why that offends the trinitarians here....that God created his "only begotten son" means that he Fathered a son...what is so terrible about that? "created" is not a dirty word....it is what God does...he is THE Creator of all things, including his "firstborn"...if Jesus is a "firstborn" then we should look in the Bible for other "sons of God"....do we find them? Yes we do, but none of them are as unique as their Commander. "Only begotten" means that this firstborn son was his Father's only direct creation because the scriptures tell us plainly that all things came into existence "through" that one.....the "master workman" by his Father's side in Proverbs 8:30-31....the "us" and "our" in Genesis 1:26.

Christ said that He was with God the Father before the foundation of the world. What form we don't know, but since we know God is a spirit, we assume Christ was also spirit.

What upsets the trinitarians is that you seem to think Christ was created by the Father out of thin air. No He was not!

He was changed from His former existence of supposed spirit to a new existence of the flesh. He is the "only begotten" Son of God through the incarnation, being born a man in the flesh.

He has always been in existence, but His type of existence changed at His virgin birth, from one form to another.

And another thing, you keep insisting that the Father is the Creator, but John and Paul both tell us directly that Christ is the Creator.

Did God the Father create Christ out of nothing so Christ could create the universe, and everything in it? Did the Father need to create Christ to do this?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I believe the fully human,absent the sin nature Jesus, was begotten upon Mary by God, and that Jesus was also God.

This sounds as contrary as saying that God raised Jesus from the dead.....did he raise himself from the dead...if he did then was he ever really dead? Can one part of God be dead on earth whilst the other equal parts of him are alive somewhere else?
Can God pray to himself? Can God be called his own servant?

Did God put himself in Mary's womb? If the holy spirit did where was God? Its totally illogical and contrary to so much that is written in God's word.
Why does Jesus need to be God? The scriptures give us no need because as the "last Adam" all Jesus needed to be was sinless. ....the equivalent of the first Adam who is also said to be a "son of God". (Luke 3:38) That is what redemption is....a set payment to free a captive from slavery. We are the captives, Jesus is the redeemer and Adam was the one who condemned us to the slavery of sin and death. Jesus paid the set price.....God didn't have it because he is immortal and cannot die.....it seems so easy to understand and yet still we argue here.

John 1:
14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Again, where does it say he was God? The "son" "came from the Father" as all sons do.
Peter, James and John had seen his glory in the transfiguration, but none of them assumed that he was God, because he never said he was. It was the Word who became flesh not God.
The Word was "with God" remember?

The collective of the apostles believed that Jesus was their "Lord" but not their God....that designation was only for the Father.
"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (2 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Could there be a plainer statement?

15 (John testified concerning him. He cried out, saying, “This is the one I spoke about when I said, ‘He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.’”) 16 Out of his fullness we have all received grace in place of grace already given. 17 For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known.

Just an aside. Verse 18 there answers the OP question, again.

You have to know that that is a terrible translation because the word "son" (yhios) is not there in verse 18. This is trinitarian bias in translating.....and it is disgraceful IMO.
What does the first part of verse 18 say? "No one has ever seen God".....so how many people saw Jesus?

In Greek the words used for Jesus are "monogenes theos" which means "only begotten god".....can Jesus be a "a god" and not "the God" according to Greek understanding of that word? Yes he can, because it is not a word used exclusively for Yahweh....it means "any god or goddess, deity or divinity"
Jesus can be divine without being deity. Why is that not apparent?

Satan is called "theos" in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4....is satan Yahweh?

 

[Aunty Jane]

If you can't see it, then you just can't see it. You're not the only one!

LOL...nice dodge....
Show us the scripture....the plain and simple truth of God's word....if its there, it is not hidden so please direct us to these verses for our examination....and scrutiny....

 

[Charlie24]

LOL...nice dodge....
Show us the scripture....the plain and simple truth of God's word....if its there, it is not hidden so please direct us to these verses for our examination....and scrutiny....

Show me what it is that needs Scripture. It could be several things I said.

My last post is well known Scripture I didn't think I needed.

 

[Charlie24]

Show me what it is that needs Scripture. It could be several things I said.

My last post is well known Scripture I didn't think I needed.

Oh, I see now, you are referring back to Rev. 3:14.

Christ is dictating to John what to write, it is Christ speaking of Himself "the beginning of the creation of God."

He refers to Himself as "the Amen" "the faithful and true witness" "the beginning of the creation of God."

As I said, if you can't see that Christ is referring to Himself as " the beginning of the creation of god" Him being the beginning of creation, when we are told He is the Creator, then you have missed it.

 

[Charlie24]

Oh, I see now, you are referring back to Rev. 3:14.

Christ is dictating to John what to write, it is Christ speaking of Himself "the beginning of the creation of God."

He refers to Himself as "the Amen" "the faithful and true witness" "the beginning of the creation of God."

As I said, if you can't see that Christ is referring to Himself as " the beginning of the creation of god" Him being the beginning of creation, when we are told He is the Creator, then you have missed it.

In other words, Christ is not saying He was created, with Him being the Creator, He is the beginning of the creation, the initiation of the creation. As I referred to the beginning/the first cause of creation.

John and Paul told us plainly He is the Creator.

John 1:1-3
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

Heb. 1:1-2
"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"

 

[RLT63]

If you can't see it, then you just can't see it. You're not the only one!

John1:10 Hebrews 1:2

 

[RLT63]

This sounds as contrary as saying that God raised Jesus from the dead.....did he raise himself from the dead...if he did then was he ever really dead? Can one part of God be dead on earth whilst the other equal parts of him are alive somewhere else?
Can God pray to himself? Can God be called his own servant?

Did God put himself in Mary's womb? If the holy spirit did where was God? Its totally illogical and contrary to so much that is written in God's word.
Why does Jesus need to be God? The scriptures give us no need because as the "last Adam" all Jesus needed to be was sinless. ....the equivalent of the first Adam who is also said to be a "son of God". (Luke 3:38) That is what redemption is....a set payment to free a captive from slavery. We are the captives, Jesus is the redeemer and Adam was the one who condemned us to the slavery of sin and death. Jesus paid the set price.....God didn't have it because he is immortal and cannot die.....it seems so easy to understand and yet still we argue here.


Again, where does it say he was God? The "son" "came from the Father" as all sons do.
Peter, James and John had seen his glory in the transfiguration, but none of them assumed that he was God, because he never said he was. It was the Word who became flesh not God.
The Word was "with God" remember?

The collective of the apostles believed that Jesus was their "Lord" but not their God....that designation was only for the Father.
"For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, 6 yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom are all things, and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (2 Corinthians 8:5-6)

Could there be a plainer statement?

You have to know that that is a terrible translation because the word "son" (yhios) is not there in verse 18. This is trinitarian bias in translating.....and it is disgraceful IMO.
What does the first part of verse 18 say? "No one has ever seen God".....so how many people saw Jesus?

In Greek the words used for Jesus are "monogenes theos" which means "only begotten god".....can Jesus be a "a god" and not "the God" according to Greek understanding of that word? Yes he can, because it is not a word used exclusively for Yahweh....it means "any god or goddess, deity or divinity"
Jesus can be divine without being deity. Why is that not apparent?

Satan is called "theos" in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4....is satan Yahweh?

The Word was with God and the Word was God

 

[Aunty Jane]

Christ said that He was with God the Father before the foundation of the world. What form we don't know, but since we know God is a spirit, we assume Christ was also spirit.

We assume the same thing since he was dwelling in the spirit realm with his God and Father. He did not become a son and God did not become a Father with his human birth.
As an eternal being, the Father has always existed, but at some point in his existence he decided to become a Father...and he brought forth a son, his "firstborn". How does a human father bring fourth a son? Does he create him out of thin air? Or is the son of the same substance as his father? If God is a spirit as he says in his word, then Jesus was also a spirit......in the same "form" as his Father.

What upsets the trinitarians is that you seem to think Christ was created by the Father out of thin air. No He was not!

Is that what you think "create" means? When God creates do you envision a magician or a purposeful craftsman. Was it "magic" or did God bring forth the raw materials by means of his great power? He permitted his son to fashion those raw materials into all that exists.
Where did matter come from?

He was changed from His former existence of supposed spirit to a new existence of the flesh. He is the "only begotten" Son of God through the incarnation, being born a man in the flesh.

We believe this too....God transferred the lifeforce of his son into the womb of Mary in order to become a human.....but unrelated to the sinner Adam. Jesus needed to be the exact equivalent of Adam when he was first created in order to redeem the human race.

He has always been in existence, but His type of existence changed at His virgin birth, from one form to another.

Where does it say that Jesus has always been in existence? He was changed at his virgin birth, but I still see no evidence that he was God. It says that this was made possible by God's spirit, which is not a person but the administration of God's power.

And another thing, you keep insisting that the Father is the Creator, but John and Paul both tell us directly that Christ is the Creator.

No they do not as I have reiterated several times......agency means that something is done through someone else....Proverbs 8:30-31 tells us that the son was God's master worker, at his side in the creative process.

Did God the Father create Christ out of nothing so Christ could create the universe, and everything in it? Did the Father need to create Christ to do this?

My goodness...if that is what you think, any wonder you don't understand anything we say.... Where do you get these weird ideas?
How does anyone know how God creates, or how he brings things into being from seemingly nowhere? What was in existence before God created anything? What is your assumption about that?

Imagination can lead people in all kinds of directions which is why there is scripture.....let it tell you what to believe...not just snatches but the whole book...its all written by one author, and its all one story from start to finish. If I asked you to do a book review how would you put the Bible's overall narrative into a few simple sentences? What is the story in a nutshell? Can you tell me?