What is the rule of faith for Christians?

[dhh712]

Was the singleness of Jesus and Paul a demand? There is something seriously wrong with your logic.

Uh, not really. It wasn't a demand, it was a choice. Singleness in the Catholic ministry is most definitely a demand, no matter how much you word it as a choice. A choice in name only. In application it is demand. Saying something is something does not make it what it is. That is the only logic you are applying.

 

[BreadOfLife]

If they make their priests have to choose celibacy, the it's imposing something on them which is clearly not demanded by God's word. Anyone choosing to be the equivalent of a pastor in the Catholic church should be allowed to marry. It shouldn't be an exception or anything like that. It shouldn't be an issue at all because it's not a demand in God's word. An encouragement, wise counsel, but clearly that kind of life is not preferred by most Christians as most are married.
I'm glad that's it's done in the Eastern setting; wish that it would be more pervasive around here.

WRONG.
They don't become priests - then have to make this decision.
They kbow it going in.

As @Illuminator and I have repeatedly shown you - if a married man wants to become a priest - he is FREE to do so in the Eastern Rites. As I have shown you - the ONE Catholic Church is comprised of over TWENTY Liturgical Rites from the West AND the East.

You DON'T know what you're talking about.

And I definitely don't know much about Catholicism, it's just what I've heard and experienced while raised in the Catholic church. We did not have any married priests.

Well - at least you got ONE thing right . . .

I find it interesting how YOU completely dodged giving me Scriptural support for the list of man-made Protestant traditions that I listed in my last post – yet persist in condemning the Scripturally-based Catholic discipline of priestly celibacy.
Gee – I WONDER why that is . . .

I am STILL waiting for you to show prove your man-made Protestant traditions from the Bible . . .

- Pre-Tribulation "Rapture"
- Accepting Jesus Christ as "Personal Lord and Savior"
- Altar calls
- Invisible Church
- Limited Atonement
- Eternal Security
- Sola Scriptura
- Sola Fide
- Perspecuity of Scripture

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Who told you that baptism is a work?
Post #1718, last Monday:

Sadly, Ferris doesn't get it. Cognitive dissonance are like chains that bind him into constantly teaching anti-Catholic LIES about "works righteousness". Watch him do it again.

I must be a prophet!​

If circumcision is a work, so is baptism.

And by the way, you ain't no prophet, lol.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

One again – you refuse to pay attention to the details.

The Bible tells us that justified nu gaith.
The Bible ALSO tells us that the only TRUE faith is one what WORKS in love (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6, James 2:14-24).

Ergo, James 2:24 is correct and does NOT contradict Romans 7 – NOR is it using a “different” definition.

You still haven't answered the question. How does doing works of righeousness MAKE me born again?

You don't seem to understand the implication of your own argument. If James is making the same argument that Paul is making - that is, that one is MADE righteous by righteous works of faith - how does righteous work MAKE a person born again?

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Ergo, James 2:24 is correct and does NOT contradict Romans 7 (sic - Romans 4) – NOR is it using a “different” definition.

You're right. James 2:24 is exactly correct...for what it actually means.

Your error is in insisting that the 'correctness' of James 2:24 is that works of faith MAKE you righteous. God's mercy, all by itself, received through believing in that mercy, does that ALL BY ITSELF. Righteous works of faith only SHOW that you have received the righteousness of God. They can not MAKE you righteous/born again.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It's not Faith "+" Works.
Faith = Belief + obedience (works of love, submission).

In other words - TRUE faith includes works (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6, James 2:14-24).
Anything other than that is NOT a saving, justifying faith.

True faith does include the doing of works of faith. That's not what is in contention.

The argument is the faith, all by itself, does the transforming into a born again, saved child of God. It is because you have been transformed into a born again child of God that you then perform works of faith. Works of faith do not MAKE you the born again person that performs works of faith. The faith that drives those works does that...all by itself. The works of faith are the evidence of that transformation into a born again person, not the procurer of it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You still haven't answered the question. How does doing works of righeousness MAKE me born again?

You don't seem to understand the implication of your own argument. If James is making the same argument that Paul is making - that is, that one is MADE righteous by righteous works of faith - how does righteous work MAKE a person born again?

WRONG.
I've answered it several times - but you refuse to listen.

ONE nore time:
We are justified (made righteous) by a faith thart WORKS.

Paul says this (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6) and James says thgis (James 2:14-24).
More importantly, JESUS says this (Matt. 25:31-46).

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're right. James 2:24 is exactly correct...for what it actually means.

Your error is in insisting that the 'correctness' of James 2:24 is that works of faith MAKE you righteous. God's mercy, all by itself, received through believing in that mercy, does that ALL BY ITSELF. Righteous works of faith only SHOW that you have received the righteousness of God. They can not MAKE you righteous/born again.

It's ALL intertwined.
Only faith that WORKS is genuine faith that can justify.

Anything else is an clangling cymbal - an empty shell (1 Cor. 13:1-13).

True faith does include the doing of works of faith. That's not what is in contention.
The argument is the faith, all by itself, does the transforming into a born again, saved child of God. It is because you have been transformed into a born again child of God that you then perform works of faith. Works of faith do not MAKE you the born again person that performs works of faith. The faith that drives those works does that...all by itself. The works of faith are the evidence of that transformation into a born again person, not the procurer of it.

Ummmmmm, NOT if you think that "Faith" and "Belief" are the same thing.
James 2:19, assures us that they atre NOT, because even the DEMONS "belie ve" in the truths about God - but they don;'t have FAITH.

Paul also assures us that "Fauth" requires CHARITY or it is NOT faith (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6).
This is what the Parable of the Sheep and Goats that Jesus taught is ALL about (Matt. 25:31-46).

 

[Ferris Bueller]

WRONG.
I've answered it several times - but you refuse to listen.

ONE nore time:
We are justified (made righteous) by a faith thart WORKS.

Paul says this (1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6) and James says thgis (James 2:14-24).
More importantly, JESUS says this (Matt. 25:31-46).

You're STILL not answering the question.
What is it about doing works that literally transforms you into a born again person?
I understand how accepting God's mercy through believing in that mercy does that apart from and before you do any works.
There is no power in doing works, or even works of faith to make you born again. Works don't have the power to do that. That's a works gospel.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Paul says this (1 Cor. 13:1-13

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 has NOTHING to do with being born again by works of obedience.

The obedience of love does not make you born again. It SHOWS that you are born again. The evidence that you most certainly must have when you stand before Christ at the Judgment. Not because those works MAKE you a born again, saved person, but because the obedience of love for Jesus and his people is the evidence that you are truly in a saving, born again relationship with him. The lack of that evidence shows that you do not know Christ in a born again relationship, and so off to the fiery place you will go.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You're STILL not answering the question.
What is it about doing works that literally transforms you into a born again person?
I understand how accepting God's mercy through believing in that mercy does that apart and before you do any works.
There is no power in doing works, or even works of faith to make you born again. Works don't have the power to do that. That's a works gospel.

WRONG.
There is no power in doing workjs of the LAW (Rom. 3:20, Gal. 3:12).

The works that God Himself prepared in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:10) are effacacious in our faith - but NOT by themselveves.
That's what Matt. 25:31-46, 1 Cor. 13:1-13, Gal. 5:6 and James 2:14-24 are ALL about.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

There is no power in doing workjs of the LAW (Rom. 3:20, Gal. 3:12).

Good grief, man, don't you even realize "love your neighbor as yourself" is the law????? Leviticus 19:18
And don't you know that Christian communion, the communion you say literally makes you born again, is a Passover observance????

Neither of these works of the law MAKE you born again. They are powerless to justify you (MAKE you righteous). Only believing the promise of God can do that. Works can only serve the purpose of SHOWING that you believe the promise. Which is also called 'being justified'. And so a man is justified by, both, faith, and works. Faith imputes God's righteousness to you. Works show that you have that imputation of God's righteousness. And so a man is justified (MADE righteous, and SHOWN to be righteous) by faith and works and not by faith alone.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 has NOTHING to do with being born again by works of obedience.

The obedience of love does not make you born again. It SHOWS that you are born again. The evidence that you most certainly must have when you stand before Christ at the Judgment. Not because those works MAKE you a born again, saved person, but because the obedience of love for Jesus and his people is the evidence that you are truly in a saving, born again relationship with him. The lack of that evidence shows that you do not know Christ in a born again relationship, and so off to the fiery place you will go.

It has EVERYTHING to do with being born again.

Pail expllicutly states:
1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am NOTHING. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain NOTHING.

NOTJHING is gained by a faith WITHOUT charity – including justification.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Good grief, man, don't you even realize "love your neighbor as yourself" is the law????? Leviticus 19:18
And don't you know that Christian communion, the communion you say literally makes you born again, is a Passover observance????

NOT according to the LAW - but according to CHRIST.
HE is the REALITYof the observance (Col. 2:16-17).

BIG difference.

Neither of these works of the law MAKE you born again. They are powerless to justify you (MAKE you righteous). Only believing the promise of God can do that. Works can only serve the purpose of SHOWING that you believe the promise. Which is also called 'being justified'. And so a man is justified by, both, faith, and works. Faith imputes God's righteousness to you. Works show that you have that imputations of God's righteousness.

Once again - they're NOT works of the Law.
They are commands of CHRIST - the fulfillment of the Law (Matt. 5:17).

John 14:15
“If you love me, keep my commands."[/QUOTE]

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The works that God Himself prepared in advance for us to do (Eph. 2:10) are effacacious in our faith - but NOT by themselveves.

Works do not make faith efficacious. They SHOW faith to be efficacious. That is why faith can not be alone. If your faith can not be seen in what it does you do not have the faith that transforms you into a born again person all by itself. The evidence of you not being born again is seen in the fact that your faith is 'alone' and not producing any works. Just as the evidence of you being born again is seen in the fact that your faith is NOT alone and is producing works.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Works do not make faith efficacious. They SHOW faith to be efficacious. That is why faith can not be alone. If your faith can not be seen in what it does you do not have the faith that transforms you into a born again person all by itself. The evidence of you not being born again is seen in the fact that your faith is 'alone' and not producing any works. Just as the evidence of you being born again is seen in the fact that your faith is NOT alone and is producing works.

No - they MAKE faith effacacious.
If they DIDN'T - then faith would only be about belief and NOT obedience.

Anf we BOTH knoiw that this is false (James 2:19) . . .

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It has EVERYTHING to do with being born again.

Pail expllicutly states:
1 Cor. 13:1-3
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am NOTHING. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, but have not love, I gain NOTHING.

NOTJHING is gained by a faith WITHOUT charity – including justification.

The ONLY justification that works gain is the justification of being SHOWN to be righteous. They have no power to MAKE you righteous (the aspect of justification Paul is talking about). Only receiving God's mercy by believing in it can MAKE you righteous. That's what makes justification a gracious gift and not payment for work completed (as it is in Catholicism). So that no one can boast.

 

[Illuminator]

Uh, not really. It wasn't a demand, it was a choice. Singleness in the Catholic ministry is most definitely a demand, no matter how much you word it as a choice. A choice in name only. In application it is demand. Saying something is something does not make it what it is. That is the only logic you are applying.

A man who freely gives up everything (wife and children) for the sake of the kingdom is unthinkable to anti-clericalists, (contrary to the teachings of Jesus and Paul) and such total sacrifice is non-existent in your line of thinking. That's why you play word games. Your criticism of a celibate priesthood is based on emotion, not scripture.

 

[Illuminator]

The ONLY justification that works gain is the justification of being SHOWN to be righteous. They have no power to MAKE you righteous (the aspect of justification Paul is talking about). Only receiving God's mercy by believing in it can MAKE you righteous. That's what makes justification a gracious gift and not payment for work completed (as it is in Catholicism). So that no one can boast.

Still can't stop LYING, can you Ferris.

 

[Illuminator]

We have instant coffee, instant soup, instant pizza, and Ferris has instant justification!

IV. Some Examples of Justification as Ongoing (not a one-time event)
2 Cor. 4:16 – though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed “every day.” This not only proves that justification is internal (not legal and external), but that it is also ongoing (it’s not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior). Our inner nature is being renewed every day as we persevere in faith, hope and love.

John 3:16 – justification is ongoing, not a one-time event. God so loved (past) the world, that He gave (past) His only Son, that whoever believes (ongoing) in Him may have eternal life. The word “believes” is “pisteuo” in Greek which necessarily includes obedience throughout one’s life. This is proved by 1 Peter 2:7-8 which also uses “pisteuo” (to obey) and “apitheo” (to disobey). The same word “pisteuo” is used in many other verses about “believing in Christ” such as John 3:36; 5:24; Rom. 4:24; 10:9-10; cf. Rom. 1:5,16; 6:17; 16:26; 1 John 5:13 (often used by Protestants to support their “faith alone” theology). To “believe” means to “obey” throughout one’s life; it is not a one-time acceptance of Jesus as Savior.

Heb. 5:9 – Paul also confirms this by writing that Jesus became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him. Here are some examples of justification as an on-going process, and not a one-time event:

Gen. 12:1-4 – Abram is justified here, as God promises to make his name great and bless the families of the earth through his seed. Abram is justified by his faith in God. Heb. 11:8-10 confirms Abraham’s justification occurred here, before Gen. 15:6 (later) by referring to Gen. 12, not Gen. 15. Abraham’s justification increased over time because justification is not a one-time event, but an ongoing process of growing in holiness.

Gen. 14:19, 22-23 – Abram is also justified here, by being blessed by the priest-king Melchizedek. Melchizedek calls Abram blessed and Abram gives him a tenth of everything.

Gen. 15:6 – Abram is further justified here, as God promises him that his descendants will be as numerous as the stars. Because the Scripture says, “He believed the Lord, and He reckoned it to him as righteousness,” Protestants often say this was Abram’s initial justification, and cite Rom 4:2 to prove Abram was justified by his faith. Yes, it is true Abram was justified by his faith, but he was justified 25 years earlier in Gen. 12:1-4, as Heb. 11:8-10 proves.

Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works.

1 Sam. 13:14 – David is justified here, as God describes him as “a man after his own heart.” No one in Scripture is described like this. Acts 13:22 confirms David’s justification before God.

1 Sam. 16:13 – David is also justified here. “The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.”

1 Sam. 17:37-54 – David is further justified here, as he responds to God’s grace and God delivers him from the hand of Goliath the Philistine.

2 Sam. 6:9,14 – David is further justified here, as he expresses a fear for the Lord in the presence of His ark, and dances before the ark of the Lord with all his might.

2 Sam. 12:7-15 – however, after David’s on-going justification before God, David falls out of justification by committing adultery with Bathsheba and slaying Uriah the Hittite. David still had faith in God, but he lost his justification because of his evil works.

Psalm 32:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8; cf. 51:2,7-10,17 – David repents of his sin and writes these beautiful psalms about God’s mercy and forgiveness. Of himself, he writes, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered up.” David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

Matt. 16:18-19 – Jesus blesses Simon for receiving a Revelation from God, changes his name to Peter, and gives him the keys to the kingdom of heaven. In John 6:68-69, Peter, justified before God, declares that Jesus has the words of eternal life. In Luke 22:31-32, Jesus prays for Peter that his faith may not fail and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles. In these and many other examples, Peter is justified before God.

Matt. 26:75; Mark 14:72; John 18:17, 25-27 – Peter denies he knows Jesus and loses his justification before God.

John 21:15-17 – Peter is re-justified before God after he negates his three-fold denial of Jesus with a three-fold confirmation of his love for him. Jesus then charges Peter to feed the Lord’s sheep. Peter was justified, loses his justification, and regains it again through repentance and love.

Luke 15:24,32 – the prodigal son was dead, and now is alive again; he was lost and now is found. The prodigal son regained his father’s favor through repentance (v. 18-19,21). When we ask our Father for forgiveness, we too will regain His favor and be justified.

Acts 9:1- 17 – Protestants would say that Paul is instantly justified here, when he encounters Christ, obeys His command to enter the city, and is moved by the Holy Spirit. They would say that Paul’s sins are now covered up and Christ’s righteousness is imputed to him.

Acts 9:18; 22:16 – then why does Ananias command Saint Paul (who was directly chosen by Christ) to stand up and be baptized and “wash away” his sins? Because justification, as the Church has taught for 2,000 years, is ongoing. It is not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. Justification is freely given by God through faith, hope, love and the sacraments of the Church (here, baptism).

Ferris can't deal with biblical evidence, so he pounds the same hollow drum of "works righteousness".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

No - they MAKE faith effacacious.

Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness before he offered Isaac up on the altar. It was at that time that he was justified by his faith, all by itself, not his works. God imputed righteousness to him at that time in response to his faith. Later, his obedience to offer Isaac up on the altar in Genesis 22:9 SHOWED that he had the righteousness that he got by his faith all by itself years earlier in Genesis 15:6. We know that is the justification he received in Genesis 22 by looking at the account itself:

"12“Do not lay a hand on the boy or do anything to him,” said the angel, “for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your only son from me.b”" Genesis 22:12
​

You can see that his obedience SHOWED that he believed the promise of God. He had already been MADE righteous way back in Genesis 15:6 before he showed the righteousness of his faith in Genesis 22:9.

"I will show you my faith by my deeds." James 2:18​