What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

[RLT63]

What benefit is there in holding the belief that Jesus is not God?

When every knee bows and every tongue confesses that Jesus is Lord is that not worship?

 

[Peterlag]

So if someone has the Spirit of God dwelling in them but not the Spirit of Christ its a no go hmm.

May I know the difference between the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ?

 

[RLT63]

May I know the difference between the spirit of God and the spirit of Christ?

Read the verse

 

[Peterlag]

I believe that @Wrangler holds the same view, but scripturally I don't come to that conclusion. The pre-existence of Jesus as the Logos, is referred to several times, such as in John 1:1 which talks about the Logos being "with God" "in the beginning"....this can only be the beginning of creation since the eternal God had no beginning. I believe that the son was that beginning. (Revelation 3:14)

Colossians 1:15-17 speaks of Jesus as being the "firstborn of all creation" so "all creation" means that nothing existed before him. He himself was the "beginning of God's creation"......this is what makes him "only begotten"...he is the only creation that came directly from the Father.....this is what I believe makes him unique.....he is not just an angel but the Chief and Commander of all the angels....second only to his God and Father.

And I believe that there is a reason for the differences we express.....as we are in the final part of “the last days” of this world system of things. There is only one truth, and it is being dispensed through only one channel.....Jesus said he would appoint a “faithful and wise slave” to “feed” his entire household their “food at the proper time". (Matthew 24:45)
To me this means that the "wheat" that Jesus said would grow alongside the "weeds" in these last days, will be in one household....a united global body of Christians who are all being fed the same food, from the same source, and without dissent or argument. (1 Corinthians 1:10)

They would in turn be dispensing this "food" (spiritual nourishment) to others, teaching them what Christ taught (and NOT things that he didn't teach) and making disciples, baptizing them in full recognition of the role that the Father, son and holy spirit had played in their spiritual journey to baptism. (Matthew 28:19-20) We know that the mention of them in that verse is not claiming that there are a trinity of god...but that one's baptism was the result of the combined efforts of all three.

This is a time of separation when Jesus is seeing first hand who are remaining part of "Babylon the great" and who have heeded God's command to "get out of her" (Revelation 18:4-5)....this is a command for God's "people"...so it begs the question, "how did God's people find themselves in "Babylon the great" in the first place?
How did God's "people" (Israel) find themselves in original Babylon? For the same reason....stubborn and willful disobedience to his commands. God allowed their enemies to take them captive and God set an allotted time before he would release them. (70 years) Those taken into exile in ancient Babylon had choices.....adopt the ways of Babylonian worship, or stay true to the commands of their God.....Daniel and his three Hebrew companions were exemplary in this and faced death at the hands of God's enemies....but they were rescued as a reward for their faith...uncontaminated even by decades of exposure to Babylonian worship. We know that Israel as a nation did not follow their good examples, but fell away constantly to false worship.
Those in "Babylon the great" have also fallen away to false worship which was introduced after the death of Christ and his apostles......and their erroneous doctrines are carried on in Christendom to the present day....

We have to get out of "Babylon the great" or we will go down with her.....so who or what is this "city" that is personified by a harlot?

My take on Colossians 1:16 based on the context it's set in...

When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17). After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38), the Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, that is, the "new man" their new nature (2Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24)

Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel") and in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, the Church.

 

[Wrangler]

What benefit is there in holding the belief that Jesus is not God?

Great question! I think I've answered it several dozen times. One does not have to abandon

1. Definition
2. Logic
3. Language Usage
4. Explicit Scripture, e.g., 1C, Sh'ma, 'For us, there is one God, the Father,' etc.

 

[Wrangler]

Read the verse

It's awesome how you make assertions but side step arguments to support it. The burden of making your argument is not on others.

 

[Peterlag]

None of the dozens of descriptions, titles, or names of God are believed to be a separate, co-equal “Person” in a triune God except for the “HOLY SPIRIT” and there is no solid biblical reason to make the "Holy Spirit” into a separate “Person.” In other contexts the “HOLY SPIRIT” refers to the gift of God’s nature that He placed on people and the new birth to the Christian, and in those contexts it should be translated as the “holy spirit." God placed a form of His nature which is “holy spirit” upon people when He wanted to spiritually empower them because our natural fleshly human bodies do not have spirit power of their own. This holy spirit nature of God was a gift from God to humankind and we see this in the case of Acts 2:38 when the spirit is specifically called a "gift" when given to the Christian.

God put the holy spirit upon Jesus immediately after he was baptized by John the Baptist because Jesus himself needed God’s gift of the holy spirit to have supernatural power just as the leaders and prophets of the Old Testament did. This fulfilled the Old Testament prophecies that God would put the holy spirit upon the Messiah enabling him in his ministry. The gift of the holy spirit was born “in” believers (John 14:17) after the Day of Pentecost rather than resting “upon” them and this is one reason why Christians are said to be “born again” of God’s spirit (1 Peter 1:3, 23). Christians have spiritual power when they receive the gift of the holy spirit (Acts 1:8) because the holy spirit is born in them and becomes part of their very nature, and this is why Christians are called God’s “holy ones” which is usually translated as “saints” in the New Testament.

God put His gift of the “holy spirit” or the “spirit” on as many people as He deemed necessary in the Old Testament, and we see this when we look at how God took the spirit that was upon Moses and put it upon the 70 elders of Israel. However, today everyone who makes Jesus Christ their Lord receives the indwelling gift of the holy spirit and that's why Peter on the Day of Pentecost quoted the prophecy in Joel that said God would “pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh." Many scholars admit the concept of the Trinity that also includes reference to the "Holy Spirit” as an independent “Person” cannot be found in the Old Testament. The Jews to whom the Old Testament was given did not recognize any such being. It's a well-known historical fact that “Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh alone,” was the cry of Israel. No verse or context openly states or even directly infers that there is a separate “Person” called “the Holy Spirit."

 

[RLT63]

It's awesome how you make assertions but side step arguments to support it. The burden of making your argument is not on others.

What assertion did I make? I simply said read the verse.
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Draw your own conclusions

 

[Matthias]

What benefit is there in holding the belief that Jesus is not God?

What is the benefit of having for our God the only one whom Jesus has for his God?

 

[RLT63]

What is the benefit of having for our God the only one whom Jesus has for his God?

Hebrews 1:8
Heb 1:8

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
The angels worship him and God calls him God

 

[Wrangler]

What assertion did I make? I simply said read the verse.
9 But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Draw your own conclusions

LOL You are the one claiming there is a benefit to Jesus being God. Yet, you shy away from actually making argument.

 

[Matthias]

I remember as a child saying with the other children in my Sunday School class, “If it’s good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me.”

I don’t know if that’s something our teacher taught us or not. Maybe from a children’s song we learned to sing? I don’t know. Maybe it’s just something we came up with on our own.

Anyway, the idea was there with me from an early age. It still factors into my thinking.

There is something similar to that in the movie, Sergeant York. In one scene, York has been struck by lightening while riding home from a tavern (the state line between Tennessee and Kentucky ran through the middle of the tavern) and he walks past his family church (located in Tennessee). He hears singing coming from inside the church and he decides to go in. The preacher sees him and redirects the congregation to sing “Give Me That Old Time Religion”. There are several biblical figures mentioned in the hymn - “Give me that old time religion. Give me that old time religion. Give me that old time religion. It’s good enough for me. It was good for the prophet Daniel. It was good for the prophet Daniel. It was good for the prophet Daniel. It’s good enough for me. It was good for …” and that’s when other biblical figures are added. York winds up being saved at the meeting.

 

[Matthias]

Hebrews 1:8
Heb 1:8

But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
The angels worship him and God calls him God

Yes. So do I.

Do we affirm two Gods? Yes, says Heraclides.

No, say I.

Worship the one God and worship the messianic King, of which David is a type (1 Chronicles 29:20).

 

[RLT63]

LOL You are the one claiming there is a benefit to Jesus being God. Yet, you shy away from actually making argument.

And when something doesn't fit your view you simply don't address it.
The most important reason that Jesus must be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death.

Is Jesus God? Yes. Jesus declared Himself to be God. His followers believed Him to be God. The provision of salvation only works if Jesus is God. Jesus is God incarnate, the eternal Alpha and Omega (Revelation 1:8; 22:13), and God our Savior (2 Peter 1:1)

 

[Wrangler]

And when something doesn't fit your view you simply don't address it.
The most important reason that Jesus must be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2).

There is no need for me to address extra-Biblical assertions. For instance, 1 John 2:2 does NOT say any of the things you claim. It does not say:

1. Jesus is God.
2. Only the impossible death of God could pay for the sins of the world.

Such a claim denies 2 points: 1.) God cannot die. 2.) God's sovereignty could achieve reconcilliation of man by any means he chose, e.g., a holy rooster, cow or man.

 

[Matthias]

Do you believe God died @RLT63? Do you believe the second person of the Trinity died?

Some trinitarians do. Some trinitarians don’t. Do you?

 

[RLT63]

There is no need for me to address extra-Biblical assertions. For instance, 1 John 2:2 does NOT say any of the things you claim. It does not say:

1. Jesus is God.
2. Only the impossible death of God could pay for the sins of the world.

Such a claim denies 2 points: 1.) God cannot die. 2.) God's sovereignty could achieve reconcilliation of man by any means he chose, e.g., a holy rooster, cow or man.

The flesh dies the Spirit does not. Scripture clearly shows reconciliation had to be by a man, but not just any man, a perfect sinless man born of a virgin, the Son of God and the Son of Man, he was in the beginning with God and he was God (John 1)

 

[Matthias]

God died for our sins?

On more than one occasion I’ve been confronted by angry trinitarians, shaking their finger in my face and shouting, “Repent or you will die, sinner! God died for your sins!”

It’s boorish behavior, but is it good theology or bad theology?

 

[RLT63]

Do you believe God died @RLT63? Do you believe the second person of the Trinity died?

Some trinitarians do. Some trinitarians don’t. Do you?

The flesh died. The Spirit did not die except symbolically during the time Jesus took on our sins and was separated from the Father. This is why he cried out, "My God, My God, why has thou forsaken me?" He was also fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Wrangler]

The flesh dies the Spirit does not.

Sure it does. Unless by using the capital-S, you are referring to the Spirit God gave Jesus when he was baptized. However, this is a distraction for it is not Jesus' spirit to begin with. Are all men immortal since they too have a spirit?

Such a post makes a mockery of death.