WHO ARE THE TWO WITNESSES IN REVELATION ?

[bluedragon]

Someone explain to me how a book can be killed and lie in the street for days ....

 

[Earburner]

I surmised that you would have some difficulty in discerning what I am saying.
It's really not complicated. In fact it's less of a "mind warp" than what church-ianity has "cooked up" for us. Matthew 16:6, 11, 1 Corinthians 2:5.

To start off with, I am not here attempting to split hairs over the doctrines fabricated by church-ianity.
But, one must definitely come to understand and accept the fact, that the OT prophets had no clue in which of the three comings of the Lord, their prophecies were going to be fulfilled in.

However, all of their prophecies must show up in all the three comings of Jesus, and of course they do, but to KNOW which is which, it requires the Wisdom of God, aka the Mind of Christ within us. John 16:13, Isaiah 55:8-9, and NOT the scholarly wisdom of men. 1 Corinthians 2:5.

We are to discern what was fulfilled, what is being fulfilled, and what shall be fulfilled in His three comings. But first, WE MUST KNOW that there really ARE THREE comings of the Lord. Unfortunately, the "Tares" have put their own spin on His comings, and have falsely declared it to be according to their knowledge, and no one is allowed to differ.
Again, Jesus' three comings:
1. When He came to Israel only in the flesh? Matthew 15:24.
2. When He now comes to each of us in the Spirit since Pentecost? John 14:21, Acts 2:16-21, Revelation 3:20.
3. When He shall come to All the world in His fiery Immortality? 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
All of what God spoke through the prophets, was to be kept secret, even from they themselves, until Jesus' first coming. Matthew 13:35.

As for "who is who", in regards to the Holy Spirit, I agree that it is a situation of plurality of Persons.
John 14:28.

If there be a true concept of a "Trinity, this is how it really should be understood:
1. God the Father IN Jesus, then
2. God the Son IN us, through faith, makes it to be
3. Both God the Father and God the Son together with-IN us, therefore all ARE one IN God the Father. 2 Corinthians 6:17-18.
There is no additional third, separate being of the Godhead. Prior to Jesus first coming in the flesh, He was with God as One, and always has been. John 14:10-11, 18-23. Both together, they are the Holy Spirit of God together, who is One. Specifically, John 14:18 and 21.

By His resurrection and ascension, Jesus has reverted back to the glory that He once had with the Father (John 17:5), but now, spiritually and physically, He is forever changed into "the firstborn from the dead", and into the First New creature (creation), being God the Son, and God the son of man. He has become our eldest brother among many brethren, in God the Father.

Edit: Now for anyone who understands that which I just said, they will truly understand what the following is saying:

2Cor.4[7] But we have this [His] treasure in [our] earthen vessels [our physical bodies], that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
1John.5[8] And there are three that bear witness in earth [our bodies], the [Holy] Spirit, and the water [our flesh], and the blood [that gives life to the flesh]: and these three agree in one.
All who are unsaved, are only flesh (water) and blood.

Q. What was it that was just described?
A. 2Cor.5[17] Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature [creation]: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Final questions: what is the New earth?
We are the New earth, our very ownselves, with God the Father and God the Son dwelling within us.?
Do you know of any other place where they would rather dwell??
It's why we were created in the first place!

LOL! No such "difficulty," Earburner. There are not "three comings" of the Lord, the second Person of the triune Jehovah (the third being the Holy Spirit). Jesus (the aforementioned second Person) never was without the glory He had with the Father before the world existed (John 17:5), but, though God, humbled Himself and set His deity aside for a time, becoming man and subsequently accomplishing our redemption in His death on the cross (Philippians 2:5-11).


Ohhhh... yes, there is... :) Jesus is very clear about the distinct personhoods of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in John 14, as I cited above.


YIKES! :) I mean, the is not ALL bad, but there's a bit of good of correction needed here... :)

You're a very interesting fellow, Earburner. :) Very colorful... :) We disagree on quite a bit, for sure. But that's... okay. :)

Grace and peace to you.

OK, you disagree, but now you are going to have explain
Luke.17[20] And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
Again, Jesus' three comings:
The KoG came to Israel in the flesh.
The KoG is STILL coming to us through His Spirit.
The KoG shall come to All upon the Day of Jesus' fiery return in His Immortality.

Which of the following reveals the truth of Luke 17:20?
1. When He came to Israel only in the flesh? Matthew 15:24.
2. When He now comes to each of us in the Spirit since Pentecost? John 14:21, Acts 2:16-21, Revelation 3:20.
3. When He shall come to All the world in His fiery Immortality? 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
All of what God spoke through the prophets, was to be kept secret, even from they themselves, until Jesus' first coming. Matthew 13:35.
They had no clue of that which they prophesied of,
as to WHEN their prophecies would be manifested (key word) and fulfilled.
The answer to Luke 17:20 is VERY "obvious" :)

Edit: I realize and expect that what I am saying sounds like heresy, but I can assure you it's not. The problem is "pharisaical church-ianity" (the tares) are the actual heritics, and have ruled for so long through their false dogma over us, we automatically accept their scholarly view as being truth, when it's NOT.
God is trying to get us to follow the Spiritual Jesus, while the Tares (church-ianity) only care to follow the Historical Jesus, and teach us so. When that happens, THEY are in control of YOU, and not God.

All should learn what 1 Corinthians 2:5 is saying about our personal faith, and what we should NOT do! From which origin is your faith derived from??
Has Jesus manifested Himself to you, as He said He would?
John.14[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Only you and God know, when Jesus has COME TO YOU!

 

[Earburner]

Do you not understand Christ and the Holy Spirit to be two different persons, Earburner? If not, maybe you should reread John 14. Just the following should be enough, as Jesus says, "I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you... the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you."

Here you are attempting to correct me when the reality is, you (as well as myself) have been duped by "church-ianity" and their human wisdom.
Hopefully, you will perceive the spiritual value in the following comparisons (all KJV):

"The Spirit of truth" is who??
John.17[17] Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John.1[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John.1[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

John.14[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 14[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love ME, he will keep my words: and my FATHER will love him, and WE will COME unto him, and make OUR abode with him.

Rev.3[20] Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will COME in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

The Jews missed the day of their visitation of the KoG that CAME unto them.
Now, since Pentecost, I surely do hope and pray, as God IS STILL longsuffering for, that all do come to Him through faith in Jesus, so that they EACH might not miss their day of visitation, of the KoG COMING to them.

Make no mistake, since Pentecost, we all are in the Age of His second coming, the Age in which the KoG COMES without observation.

It's not my fault that "pharisaical church-ianity" has messed it up on the three comings of Jesus, falsely calling it only Two!

 

[Earburner]

Ah, Zechariah 4, which I referred to earlier. This is apocalyptic literature, Earburner. Zechariah gives us an apocalyptic vision that points us to the end of days... while also alluding to realities that occur throughout the history of God's people., which is going on now, and will until Christ returns. This is exactly what John does throughout his Revelation. To that end, we are the ones who are sent out by the Lord into the world to "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that (Jesus has) commanded (us)... (for) behold, (He is) with (us) always, to the end of the age” (Jesus, Matthew 28:19). In this way, we are the anointed ones, anointed by the Lord with the Holy Spirit, as John tells us in 1 John 2:20-27...

"But you have been anointed by the Holy One, and you all have knowledge. I write to you, not because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and because no lie is of the truth. Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, he who denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. Let what you heard from the beginning abide in you. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, then you too will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that he made to us ~ eternal life. I write these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. But the anointing that you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie ~ just as it has taught you, abide in Him."​

Grace and peace to you.

Unfortunately for us all, "pharisaical church-ianity" (the tares) established the heresy of "three Gods in one" long ago, and has pounded it into our psyche for 2000 years. Dare anyone to be contrary, and one is immediately rushed off to their forever burning "HELL" of continual suffering and torment, which is another evil, man made up fallacy of "church-ianity's" fear tactics.

You can bounce the scriptures back and forth to try and prove that God created a third Being of God Himself to nest among His Son and Himself, but there are NO scriptures that literally say that is so.

God the Father is Holy Spirit, who is One with the Son.
God the Son is Holy Spirit, who is One with the Father.
If one must separate the two, and then add it up, then 1+1=2. Together, they are Holy Spirit with each other. Therefore, to deny the existence of either one, is to deny THEIR existence altogether, which is the blasphemy against THEIR existence as being Holy Spirit TOGETHER. It's really quite simple. It's only a "rule of thumb", in order to reveal the situation of their Being.
To use an analogy, though rather poorly, it could be likened to the reality of "Siamese twins" of having one body with two heads, whereby one "head" is the more dominant in their existence within their one body.
So then, to be anointed by Holy Spirit is exactly what 1 John 5:11-13 is revealing.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this eternal life is in his Son.
[Therefore],
[12] He that hath the Son hath [eternal] life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Has Jesus COME to you, in His unobservable Second Coming, and you then received HIM?
THEN the KoG HAS COME unto you, without observation!!
Simple!!
Unfortunately for you, you have to be willing to allow Jesus to REMOVE the pharasaical trash that church-i anity has heaped upon you. That can take time, because He must displace every facet of your belief system, that is corrupted by their trash, and replace it with His Truth. John 16:13, 1 Corinthians 2:5.

Edit: if one does not receive the Spirit of Jesus NOW, DURING this present Age of God's Grace, since Pentecost, and then dies, ALL hope is lost for their salvation.
If you can beat back and ignore the foul concept of the pharisaical doctrine of "the trinity", you will perceive HOW God the Father comes to be with us Romans 8:8-9.......Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Please compare that with the above of 1 John 5:11.
God the Father IN God the Son, ARE together Holy Spirit.

 

[PinSeeker]

OK, you disagree, but now you are going to have explain Luke.17...

Well, I don't have to, but I will, sure. In that passage, Jesus is talking about both the now and the not yet of the kingdom of God.

NOW

It is now (since the sending of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost) in the sense that the kingdom of God is in the midst of us (as He says in Luke 17:21); as He says to Nicodemus:

• "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8)

And both Paul and Peter write of believers having been ~ past tense ~ born again in this life:

• "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." (Ephesians 2:4-6)
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

So, new believer by new believer ~ new birth by the Holy Spirit by new birth by the Holy Spirit ~ the kingdom of God is here now and growing, in the sense that Paul enunciates to the Ephesians and by extension to all of us even today:

"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22)​

NOT YET

It is not yet ~ still to come ~ in the sense that it will not be made full until all of the Israel of God, His people, which includes both Jew and Gentile, has been brought in and Christ returns to consummate the kingdom of God at the end of this age. Then will be (after the Judgment, of course ~ the wedding supper of the Lamb and the new heaven and new earth. Then there will be no more sin, and everything will be made new, and eternity will begin. I love how the prophet Isaiah speaks of it:

• "...the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10)

And of course John, in his vision:

• "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”" (Revelation 21:1-4)

So there you go.

The KoG came to Israel in the flesh.
The KoG is STILL coming to us through His Spirit.
The KoG shall come to All upon the Day of Jesus' fiery return in His Immortality.
Only you and God know, when Jesus has COME TO YOU!

Now see, these things I agree wholeheartedly with you on, and what I have just fleshed out. Yes, I agree with you here. So maybe we're just missing each other a bit. But there are ~ and I think you agree ~ only two physical comings of Jesus, the first when He was born of Mary, and the second when He returns at the close of the present age.

But now this...

God the Father is Holy Spirit, who is One with the Son.
God the Son is Holy Spirit, who is One with the Father.
If one must separate the two, and then add it up, then 1+1=2. Together, they are Holy Spirit with each other.

Yeah, that's totally antithetical to what Jesus Himself says in John 14. Again ~ and we'll go back and forth on this until Jesus returns ~ His second (physical) coming... see what I did there? :) ~ Jesus is crystal clear about the distinct individual personhoods of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit:

• "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you... These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14)

Irrefutably, Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a distinct person from the Father and from Himself (in addition to enunciating the distinctness of He and the Father). So, with regard to personhood, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 (Persons).

Now, it is absolutely true that the three are in perfect unity, that each is in both the others. This is their absolute and perfect oneness. So yes, together, they are One. But still they are three Persons. Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.

I realize and expect that what I am saying sounds like heresy...

Well, it's a mixed bag. :)

You can bounce the scriptures back and forth...

No "bouncing" necessary. It is what it is.

...to try and prove that God created a third Being of God Himself to nest among His Son and Himself, but there are NO scriptures that literally say that is so.

Neither the Son nor the Spirit were created; never would I try to prove such a thing. But the Spirit of God was there ~ with the Father and the Son, at the creation of the world; we see that in Genesis 1:2, where we read, "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."

God the Father IN God the Son, ARE together Holy Spirit.

Nope. Again, that's totally antithetical to what Jesus Himself says in John 14. Again, Jesus is crystal clear about the distinct individual personhoods of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit when He says:

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you... These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14)

It is absolutely true that the three are in perfect unity, that each is both the others. This is their absolute and perfect oneness. But still they are three. Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.

But, like I said, Earburner, you are a very interesting ~ and very... colorful... :) ~ person.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Earburner]

Well, I don't have to, but I will, sure. In that passage, Jesus is talking about both the now and the not yet of the kingdom of God.

NOW

It is now (since the sending of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost) in the sense that the kingdom of God is in the midst of us (as He says in Luke 17:21); as He says to Nicodemus:

• "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." (John 3:5-8)

And both Paul and Peter write of believers having been ~ past tense ~ born again in this life:

• "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace you have been saved ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." (Ephesians 2:4-6)
• "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:3-5)

So, new believer by new believer ~ new birth by the Holy Spirit by new birth by the Holy Spirit ~ the kingdom of God is here now and growing, in the sense that Paul enunciates to the Ephesians and by extension to all of us even today:

"So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22)​

NOT YET

It is not yet ~ still to come ~ in the sense that it will not be made full until all of the Israel of God, His people, which includes both Jew and Gentile, has been brought in and Christ returns to consummate the kingdom of God at the end of this age. Then will be (after the Judgment, of course ~ the wedding supper of the Lamb and the new heaven and new earth. Then there will be no more sin, and everything will be made new, and eternity will begin. I love how the prophet Isaiah speaks of it:

• "...the ransomed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10)

And of course John, in his vision:

• "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”" (Revelation 21:1-4)

So there you go.


Now see, these things I agree wholeheartedly with you on, and what I have just fleshed out. Yes, I agree with you here. So maybe we're just missing each other a bit. But there are ~ and I think you agree ~ only two physical comings of Jesus, the first when He was born of Mary, and the second when He returns at the close of the present age.

But now this...

Yeah, that's totally antithetical to what Jesus Himself says in John 14. Again ~ and we'll go back and forth on this until Jesus returns ~ His second (physical) coming... see what I did there? :) ~ Jesus is crystal clear about the distinct individual personhoods of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit:

• "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you... These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14)

Irrefutably, Jesus refers to the Holy Spirit as a distinct person from the Father and from Himself (in addition to enunciating the distinctness of He and the Father). So, with regard to personhood, 1 + 1 + 1 = 3 (Persons).

Now, it is absolutely true that the three are in perfect unity, that each is in both the others. This is their absolute and perfect oneness. So yes, together, they are One. But still they are three Persons. Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.


Well, it's a mixed bag. :)


No "bouncing" necessary. It is what it is.


Neither the Son nor the Spirit were created; never would I try to prove such a thing. But the Spirit of God was there ~ with the Father and the Son, at the creation of the world; we see that in Genesis 1:2, where we read, "The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."


Nope. Again, that's totally antithetical to what Jesus Himself says in John 14. Again, Jesus is crystal clear about the distinct individual personhoods of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit when He says:

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you... These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14)

It is absolutely true that the three are in perfect unity, that each is both the others. This is their absolute and perfect oneness. But still they are three. Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty.

But, like I said, Earburner, you are a very interesting ~ and very... colorful... :) ~ person.

Grace and peace to you.

When and while Jesus was in the likeness of our mortal flesh, He had to step outside of the Glory and the fulness of His Eternal Being, that he had in Oneness with His Father, who is Spirit only. We see a glimpse of that through his Transfiguration, and the angels descending and ascending upon him. John 1:51
Both the Father and the Son were always the Holy Spirit when together, which is the case for when Jesus Resurrected and Ascended into His New status of becoming the First Immortal New creation, having the ability to be physical and/or Spirit at will.
God the Father is NOW within the New Created body of Jesus' being both physical and Spirit.
Hear this.....Because of Jesus' sacrifice, God the Father can now permanently dwell within us through The Spirit of Jesus. God NEEDED a sacrifice for Himself, just as much as we did.
God in Jesus,... and then Jesus in us,.... is now Holy Spirit of both the Father and the Son in us.

 

[Earburner]

Nope. Again, that's totally antithetical to what Jesus Himself says in John 14. Again, Jesus is crystal clear about the distinct individual personhoods of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit when He says:

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. You know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you... These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." (John 14)

If as you say, that "The Holy Spirit" is an additional Person/Being of God, who is a Spirit,
then let's add this in:
John.14[28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and [I shall] COME again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John.16[7] Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

From 14[28] who is The Comforter?
Ans. God the Father IN God the Son, as they have always been, before Jesus was made to be flesh.

It's NOT God the Father who is coming to us, bringing Jesus along with Him, BUT RATHER THE REVERSE.
Jesus COMES to us, bringing the Father WITHIN HIMSELF, for BOTH to dwell within US!!!
Jesus is God the Son who became a man, thus making him to be the perfect Mediator between God the Father, who is the Eternal Spirit, and we who are mortal flesh.
John.14[23] Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and WE will come unto him, and make OUR abode with[in] him.
John 6:63. 2 Corinthians 4:7

Luke.17[20] And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God COMETH not with observation:
Which is and has been since Pentecost, the true second Coming of Jesus, BRINGING God the Father within himself, and they together, are HOLY SPIRIT.

Are you going to tell me that God the Father was not in Jesus before He was made to be flesh, and then after His resurrection into immortality?

Was there ever a time when the Father was not in Jesus?
Yes. DURING his death.
Matt.27[46] And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

So, what's next after this present Age of God's Grace (the figurative 1000 years) is over? The Third and final coming of Jesus, in the flaming fire of His Immortality, as He truly is, aka the complete end of this world, and everything in it!!
KJV Luke 17:28-30

 

[Earburner]

In the three comings (123) of Jesus, there are three manifestations (abc) of Himself in three different forms.

In His first form(1a) and His third form(3c), both forms are physically observable, but the MOST important form is the second form (2b) of His coming to us, which is Spiritual. THAT form is un-observable.
1a- physical- in the flesh.
2b- spiritual- in the Spirit.
3c- physical- in His Immortality.

Have you not not noticed, that the "TARES" (pharisaical church-ianity) neglect and almost ignore the MOST important form of His coming, which was on the Day of Pentecost, and the duration of this current Age of God's Grace?

Why?? Church-ianity is not interested in that which is spiritual, but rather is preoccupied and consumed by the history of it all, (Christian traditions), and what THEY CHOOSE to fabricate about His physical and Glorious return.
And of course, all that means is that they have nothing that is spiritual to offer, that one might want to know about.

Since the "tares" are ignoring "the Spirit of Christ" that COMES to all without observation (Matthew 25:1-13, Romans 8:8-9, Revelation 3:20) what are they leading others to, if they themselves don't have the Gift of the Holy Spirit of God the Father and God the Son?
Ans. The religion of church-ianity. 1 Corinthians 2:5.
Please pay attention to what I just said, and let it digest through the mind of Christ, that is within you!!
Matthew 16:6, 11.

Don't let church-ianity mess this up on you, about which form of Jesus' coming IS THE most important to God, at this present time, of His Age of Grace. John 3:3-8, 2 Peter 3:9, 15.

Oh, and BTW, did you happen to notice in my listing, which "coming" of Jesus is the second coming??
Ans. It's all right now, and it has been taking place, ever since Pentecost.
John.14[18] I will not leave you comfortless:
I will come to you. See also Revelation 3:20.
John.14[21]...... I will..... manifest myself to him.

Now, why would church-ianity mess that up?
Ans. They really don't know the importance of Jesus' TRUE second coming.
Therefore, YOU (and we all) should KNOW, that by being "born again of His Spirit", we are made to be PART-akers of the divine nature NOW. 2 Peter 1:4.

Therefore...... "BLESSED and HOLY IS he that HATH PART [NOW] in the First resurrection" [who is Christ]. Revelation 20:6, Colossians 1:18, Romans 8:29.
1 John 5:12-13

There are numerous OT. prophecies about the true second coming, being without observation!! But church-ianity is messing that up also, and they are doing it big time.

But, now you know why it is.....
1Cor.2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but [rather] in the POWER of God.

Phil.3[10] That I may know him, and the POWER of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

 

[PinSeeker]

If as you say, that "The Holy Spirit" is an additional Person/Being of God...

He is. Jesus is very clear about that in John 14. Much to correct in your posts above, but what I have said previously is very sufficient.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

 

[Earburner]

He is. Jesus is very clear about that in John 14. Much to correct in your posts above, but what I have said previously is very sufficient.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

KJV John 14 is a good size reference. Maybe you could be more specific.

 

[PinSeeker]

KJV John 14 is a good size reference. Maybe you could be more specific.

LOL! As if I was lacking in specificity (at all) in posts 38 and 45 above... :)

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

 

[face2face]

Someone explain to me how a book can be killed and lie in the street for days ....

Revelation 11:8 what does it mean "And their dead bodies shall lie"

This verse represents the political "bodies" of the two witnesses as lying dead and unburied for all to see. Symbolically it indicates that the triumph of Catholicism over its enemies would be kept publicly in view, and would not be allowed to be forgotten, or "buried" out of sight. This was done by a yearly celebration of the triumph of Catholicism over the Huguenots. The Papacy was so proud of the murders it committed during the massacre of 1572, that medals were struck commemorating the event.

Massacre of Saint Bartholomew’s Day | Definition, Background, & Facts

 

[Jack]

Are there any verses in the Bible that JW's don't TWIST to change what God said?

 

[bluedragon]

This verse represents the political "bodies" of the two witnesses as lying dead and unburied for all to see. Symbolically it indicates that the triumph of Catholicism over its enemies would be kept publicly in view, and would not be allowed to be forgotten, or "buried" out of sight. This was done by a yearly celebration of the triumph of Catholicism over the Huguenots. The Papacy was so proud of the murders it committed during the massacre of 1572, that medals were struck commemorating the event..

That is not a book. That is a historic event ...Well before the events of the tribulation and end times ...

 

[Earburner]

He is. Jesus is very clear about that in John 14. Much to correct in your posts above, but what I have said previously is very sufficient.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.

You said only what pharisaical "church-ianity" (the wisdom of men) thinks of who The Holy Spirit is. Their understanding is the REVERSE OF who Jesus showed how THEY actually are.
Would you happen to know Who the "THEY" is?
In John 14, there are only TWO being revealed as One.
Here is one clue:
John.17[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Edit: here is "another" clue (pun intentional):
John.14[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

"Another"- Strong's Number - G243
Greek: ἄλλος
Transliteration: allos
Pronunciation: al'-los
Definition: A primary word;
else that is different (in many applications):

Edit, as per "Pinseeker": If there is to be another (different) Comforter, who was the first Comforter?
Ans. God the Father Himself is the first Comforter.
2 Corinthians 1:3-4.

So then,
1. does another Comforter mean "in addition to" Jesus Himself and God the Father, or
2. does it mean that both Jesus and God the Father together, will come to us in a "different" form than what was being displayed THROUGH Jesus' mortal flesh at the moment?

Jesus said a very important statement in John 14:18[18] I will not leave you comfortless:
I [myself] will COME to you.

Now the question to all is,.....who is Jesus BRINGING WITH HIM, to be in US??
Ans. GOD the Father, who IS WITHIN Him, and they together are One!!

Now we can better understand what is really being said in Hebrews 10[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his [Immortal] flesh;

 

[face2face]

This verse represents the political "bodies" of the two witnesses as lying dead and unburied for all to see. Symbolically it indicates that the triumph of Catholicism over its enemies would be kept publicly in view, and would not be allowed to be forgotten, or "buried" out of sight. This was done by a yearly celebration of the triumph of Catholicism over the Huguenots. The Papacy was so proud of the murders it committed during the massacre of 1572, that medals were struck commemorating the event..

That is not a book. That is a historic event ...Well before the events of the tribulation and end times ...

So you dont see the Revelation as Historical?

 

[quietthinker]

WHO ARE THE TWO WITNESSES IN REVELATION ?
They are always with us in some form....eg, God's people and the scriptures etc.
We need to think laterally and not be blinkered.
Consider and run with this principle:-

Deuteronomy 19:15
15One witness is not enough to convict anyone accused of any crime or offense they may have committed. A matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.

2 Corinthians 13:1
1This will be my third visit to you. “Every matter must be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.”

Elijah.....his message to Israel and God's answer by fire on his altar
Moses....and God's answer by the paring of the Red Sea, the continuous presence of God in the cloud by day and fire by night, the constant supply of manna, the brass serpent on a pole.

There are many other witnesses also. Here is one example.

John 5:36-37
36“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me.

 

[Earburner]

1. John the Baptist was the witness to who Jesus is
2. Jesus is the witness to who God is.
They are the two anointed ones of Zechariah 4:14.
Both were born with the Holy Spirit of God at birth. No others have EVER been physically born by the Holy Spirit of God. Malachi 4:5 has already been fulfilled.

 

[Earburner]

So you dont see the Revelation as Historical?

Actually, the words of the book of Revelation are the written Eternal thoughts of God, who thinks in the past, present and the future, all at the SAME time.
Isaiah 55:8-9
Our lowly, fleshly minds cannot understand him on his level, hence the need for "the mind of Christ" to be within us, aka His Holy Spirit.
John 16:13

 

[PinSeeker]

If there is to be another (different) Comforter, who was the first Comforter?
Ans. Jesus Himself is the first Comforter.

Ah... you know, I agree with what you say here, Earburner, at least in part, but not fully. I think what you are saying is not untrue, at least to a certain extent, but falls short of the whole truth. Surely you will acknowledge what Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 1:3-4, that the Father is the First Comforter:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, Who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God."​

Read on...

1. does another Comforter mean "in addition to" Himself and God the Father, or
2. does it mean that both Jesus and God the Father together, will come to us in a "different" form than what was being displayed THROUGH Jesus' mortal flesh at the moment?

Yes. :)

Together, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all distinct Comforters, the Father being the First, the Son, Who was sent by and from the Father, being the second, and the Holy Spirit, Who was sent by and from the Father in the Son's name, being the third. And together, they are each in both of the others and together the one God of all comfort. And this is what Paul is saying in that 2 Corinthians 1 passage cited above:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, Who comforts us in all our affliction, so that we may be able to comfort those who are in any affliction, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. For as we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort too. If we are afflicted, it is for your comfort and salvation; and if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we suffer. Our hope for you is unshaken, for we know that as you share in our sufferings, you will also share in our comfort. For we do not want you to be unaware, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead. He delivered us from such a deadly peril, and He will deliver us. On Him we have set our hope that He will deliver us again. You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many." (2 Corinthians 1:3-11)​

In this passage, Paul is clearly talking about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, all working in concert over, for, and in us in their specific roles, all Comforters and the one God of all comfort.

Grace and peace to you, Earburner.