The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[Ronald Nolette]

What events are you talking about? What you said in verse 2? No, it's talking about things that happen during the thousand years, not before. It is YOUR assumption that they happen before the thousand years, but I don't have to go by your assumptions.

Those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and did not worship the beast or take his mark. After all the bible says they are resurrected and reign with jesus for that non1,000 1,000 years. and according to you the 1,000 years started with jesus resurrection, so they had to have died before teh resurrection of jesus in order to be raised.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

As I said, I believe the beast generally refers to the world and its kingdoms.

I believe it is a spiritual mark that is the spiritual counterpart to the seal of God, which I believe is a symbolic representation for those who have the seal of the Holy Spirit, as other scripture talks about.

so you may have worshipped teh beast and taken his mark before you got "saved" and thus are damned forever. when did the angel do his travel warning people not to "worship" governments.

So what is th emark specifically. The bible goes into specifics saying it is the name of the beast or th enumber of his name or 666. What say you? And how does one take a spiritual mark on their right hand?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Do you think the number of times the thousand years is mentioned has anything to do with whether it is a literal thousand years or not?

More so than you think that because it is symbolic four other times must mean it is symbolic here!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Both passages talk about Christ reigning. Both passages refer to a first resurrection. Revelation 1:5 is alluding to the fact that Christ's resurrection was the first unto bodily immortality, as other scripture alludes to as well (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, Col 1:18). Both passages talk about His people reigning with Him as priests in His kingdom. Both passages speak of the benefits of having part in a first resurrection. With all of this in mind, why would you not determine the timing of Revelation 20:6 based on the timing of Revelation 1:5-6? The timing of Revelation 1:5-6 is clearly the time starting long ago when Christ rose from the dead. It was at that time that He began to reign and His followers became "kings and priests unto God and his Father". With that in mind, why think that Revelation 20:6 is talking about a future time when it talks about Christ reigning with His followers who are "priests of God and of Christ"?

Yes but you falsely associate Jesus being the first begotten from the dead with the very specific resurrection described in REv. 20. It refers to those who did not take the mark or worship the beasts image. context and subject of the context matters crucially.

are you saying that all the dead since Jesus resurrected have been risen physically and are reigning with Christ? they have not had a spiritual resurrection, for our spirits and souls do not die! So what is this resurrection? are the saved dead physcially resurrected and glorified now?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You did? Where did you indicate how you interpret John 5:28-29, Matthew 25:31-46 or 2 Peter 3:10-13?

How much time do you think I have? An endless amount? Good grief. I did just answer several of your questions in another post, so I hope you're satisfied with that. I don't have time to reply to your "scores of verses".

Read Revelation 19:15-18 and Psalm 2:7-9. Those give the context of what it means for Him to rule with a rod of iron. The context of both passages is all about complete DESTRUCTION. So, He will be destroying all of His enemies with His rod of iron. Psalm 2:9 compares it to breaking a vase into pieces. Revelation 19:15-18 talks about Him ruling with a rod of iron in conjunction with Him smiting (destroying) His enemies and treading them in the fierceness and wrath of God. So, how are you getting that He will rule over these people for a thousand years when the context indicates that He will DESTROY them when He returns?

I showed you that the word "hour" in John is hora and also means time frame.

Matt 25? is WHEN Jesus RETURNS IN Rev 19 AND FIGHTS THE ARMIES OF THE ANTICHRIST. there will be saved and lost survivors of the tribulation period and the saved will enter teh millenial kingdom as described in all the verses I posted for you a while ago which you have yet to acknowledge.

So you don't really want to see why there is a literal physcial kingdom on earth based on teh bible. OK then. We may need to be done. I read your passages- If you refuse to read mine- then what is the point. I think you do not wish to see what teh bible says that you may not have already reinterpreted.

 

[WPM]

I showed you that the word "hour" in John is hora and also means time frame.

Matt 25? is WHEN Jesus RETURNS IN Rev 19 AND FIGHTS THE ARMIES OF THE ANTICHRIST. there will be saved and lost survivors of the tribulation period and the saved will enter teh millenial kingdom as described in all the verses I posted for you a while ago which you have yet to acknowledge.

So you don't really want to see why there is a literal physcial kingdom on earth based on teh bible. OK then. We may need to be done. I read your passages- If you refuse to read mine- then what is the point. I think you do not wish to see what teh bible says that you may not have already reinterpreted.

Revelation 19 is climactic and forbids your doctrine. It also exposes the myth that Premils are literalists. They are not. They spiritualize repeated Scripture.

 

[WPM]

Yes but you falsely associate Jesus being the first begotten from the dead with the very specific resurrection described in REv. 20. It refers to those who did not take the mark or worship the beasts image. context and subject of the context matters crucially.

are you saying that all the dead since Jesus resurrected have been risen physically and are reigning with Christ? they have not had a spiritual resurrection, for our spirits and souls do not die! So what is this resurrection? are the saved dead physcially resurrected and glorified now?

Premils avoid the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Totally disagree that we all carry the mark of reprobation. Where do you get that in the Bible? The Bible teaches we are all by nature the children of wrath. BIG difference.

Well please explain. How does one take this mark on their forehead or right hand. What does it mean that it is the name of a man or his numb er then?

Who is this beast worshipped since at least Cain?

Why does SI totally disagree with you, Which of you has the right reinteprretation?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Many see 7 cycles in Revelation relating to the intra-Advent period. These parallel each other.

Cycle 1

Cycle 1 is basically introductory. It is the only vision that was received on Patmos.

It relates to direct messages relating to the conduct of the seven churches (Ch 2-3).

CYCLE 2 (received in heaven)

Seven Seals (Ch 6-8:1)

CYCLE 3 (received in heaven)

Seven Trumpets (Ch 8:6-10:7)

CYCLE 4 (received in heaven)

The Church and its onslaught from the devil (Ch 12) including a parallel view of the beast’s (the world antichrist system – intra-advent) persecution of the elect (Ch 13) and the simultaneous joy of the redeemed (Ch 14) in heaven (Ch 12-14).

CYCLE 5 (received in heaven)

Seven Vials (Ch 16)

CYCLE 6 (received in heaven)

Babylon (17-19)

CYCLE 7 (received in heaven)

The figurative binding of Satan from the cross and the victorious reign of the saints in heaven. The ushering in of the New Heaven and the New Earth (Ch 20-22).

It is interesting that each of these parallels that were received in heaven (2-7) start with the Greek word kai ("And") even though they commence a new vision pertaining to the intra-Advent period and ending at the second coming.

so according to yopur spiritual interpretation, the entire book of revelation up to the return of Jesus all runs at the same time? so the seals are happening the same time as the bowls as the trumpets as Babylon the Great as the seven churches etc?

Please sho wfrom history these events as they unjfolded. And which recap are we in now?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is the spirit of this world that controls wicked empires through the ages.

Yes Satan is the god of this world. But Satan is not the man of sin, the beast, the antichrist. The bible declares him a man. You say he was or is here so who is he?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

How about actually telling us where the Bible teaches that there will be survivors after the "battle of Armageddon," instead of making these fantastic claims?

So you believe when Jesus returns to earth to battle, He will kill everybody?

MKatt. 24 shows survivors.

Same with Matt. 25.. If this is resurrected people- He would have said so! You imply it is a resurrection but the language does not justify that reinterpretation.

Not only are you misrepresenting what it says in the Bible in order to get Premil to fit, you also require your own Lexicon to force a meaning on the original text in order for your beliefs to fit. Suntribo means to crush. No survivors I am afraid.

No that is actually from the Blue letter Bible and bible hub. another time you have borne false witness against a brother.

 

[WPM]

Well please explain. How does one take this mark on their forehead or right hand. What does it mean that it is the name of a man or his numb er then?

Who is this beast worshipped since at least Cain?

Why does SI totally disagree with you, Which of you has the right reinteprretation?

I told you but you ignored it. I do not think SI and I disagree. Even if we did, hello, we are humans. Premils disagree.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-13: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the second coming) shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

What about the extent of his influence? What type of entity could possibly be “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? In fact: who are “them that perish”?

This description is so watertight, broad and inclusive that it shows us that it relates to all the eternally damned. No one could surely underestimate the power and influence of this entity. Anyone that takes a literal reading of Scripture could not deny this. The possession of this wicked entity is so damaging that it causes them to reject the truth and be damned for all eternity.

This text tells us that those who have “the mystery of iniquity” are damned “for all eternity because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). This, in turn, results in God sends “them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:11). Here is the mark of reprobation! Here is the mark of the beast! What results is unthinkable: “they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thess 2:12).

The mystery of iniquity must therefore be a spirit. This evil spirit dwells “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). This correlates with the longevity, characteristics and influence that are attributed to the beast. His influence is wholesale on all those that do not make it to heaven. Paul seems to agree with John in his description of this being, repeating the same truth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Revelation 19 is climactic and forbids your doctrine. It also exposes the myth that Premils are literalists. They are not. They spiritualize repeated Scripture.

Well I await your explanation then.

also waiting for you to identify the mark and who or what is the beast! His image and when did the angel fly around warning people not to take the beasts mark!

 

[WPM]

Yes Satan is the god of this world. But Satan is not the man of sin, the beast, the antichrist. The bible declares him a man. You say he was or is here so who is he?

1. The beast has been around for over 2000 years (Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:11-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 1:7, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-13). No man has lived that long on earth. Only a wicked spirit or an evil empire could possibly fulfil that portrayal.
2. How can a literal human being be literally “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? This would suggest him being in every single unsaved person. Only a spirit can do that.
3. The beast carries the allegiance of all the non-elect. No single human being has or ever or will possess that wholesale allegiance. Only a broader worldly spirit enjoys all the loyalty of the wicked.
4. There is nowhere in Scripture that shows human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3). Any time it is mentioned, it is shown to be the exclusive abode of Satan and his demons.
5. What man possesses 7 heads? These describe 7 wicked kingdoms in history with 7 kings ruling over them. No man can possibly satisfy that.
6. According to the original Greek, and in contrast to what many people teach, 666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.”
7. Finally, what human being in history lives in, and rises up out of, the sea at the end? Such an idea is non-sensical.

 

[WPM]

so according to yopur spiritual interpretation, the entire book of revelation up to the return of Jesus all runs at the same time? so the seals are happening the same time as the bowls as the trumpets as Babylon the Great as the seven churches etc?

Please sho wfrom history these events as they unjfolded. And which recap are we in now?

As you study the 7 vials and compare them to the 7 trumpets you cannot help but see that they parallel each other. This negates the chronological approach.

First Trumpet/Vial - upon the earth
Second Trumpet/Vial - upon the sea
Third Trumpet/Vial - upon the rivers and fountains of waters
Fourth Trumpet/Vial - upon the sun
Fifth Trumpet/Vial - the followers of antichrist afflicted with grievous pain
Sixth Trumpet/Vial – a catastrophic final battle emanating from that great river Euphrates
Seventh Trumpet/ Vial - the end!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Premils avoid the most important resurrection to let their opinion fit. There is one literal first resurrection where Christ defeated the grave. The Bible makes it clear that Christ is "the first resurrection" (Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6), "the firstborn from the dead" (Colossians 1:18), "the firstfruits of them that slept" (1 Corinthians 15:20), "first begotten of the dead" (Revelation 1:5).

another time you are a liar! We exalt jesus resurrection as the most important resurrection ever to be!

We just do not falsely call it the resurrection of REv. 20:6 differentr events defining different events with totally different contexts.

It is you who refuse to answer the identity of these saints who did not worship teh beast who were resurrected right after jesus was resurrected. the bible says thesae are living and reigning with Jesus. They were beheaded, they did not worship the beasdet or take his mark (which is what) or worship his image (which is what?).

You said the non1,000 years, 1000 years be3gan with Jesus resurrection so who are these who were beheaded during Jesus lifetime?

 

[WPM]

So you believe when Jesus returns to earth to battle, He will kill everybody?

MKatt. 24 shows survivors.

Could you quote it, instead of making sweeping claims?

Same with Matt. 25.. If this is resurrected people- He would have said so! You imply it is a resurrection but the language does not justify that reinterpretation.

Could you quote it, instead of making sweeping claims?

 

[WPM]

another time you are a liar! We exalt jesus resurrection as the most important resurrection ever to be!

We just do not falsely call it the resurrection of REv. 20:6 differentr events defining different events with totally different contexts.

It is you who refuse to answer the identity of these saints who did not worship teh beast who were resurrected right after jesus was resurrected. the bible says thesae are living and reigning with Jesus. They were beheaded, they did not worship the beasdet or take his mark (which is what) or worship his image (which is what?).

You said the non1,000 years, 1000 years be3gan with Jesus resurrection so who are these who were beheaded during Jesus lifetime?

Calm down please.

It is the dead in Christ rescued from Hades after the first resurrection. I wrote this to another poster.

Matt 27:44-57

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots…
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour (this is from midday till 3pm).
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Look what all is going on here. Immediately upon Christ’s death the earthquake arrives causing the curtain in the temple to be cut in two. This showed us that the work was indeed complete. The penalty was paid.

The “centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” This was the scene at the cross. This is not a natural disaster that hit 3 days later.

Having established that the earthquake occurred when He gave up the ghost, verse 52 adds more information as to what was going on: “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Where actually where these resurrected “saints which slept” before Christ secured this resurrection?

Abraham’s bosom.

We can only conclude that the emptying of Abraham’s bosom occurred at the cross.

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, “when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

The result of this can be where the New Testament locates the dead in Christ after the victory of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is this group that is called “captivity” here? It is those sinful men that would be set free by Christ’s victory over death. They were miserably bound in solid spiritual chains. They were imprisoned in a dark prison without any hope of pardon or release. Isaiah 14:17 succinctly tells us that Lucifer “opened not the house of his prisoner.” They had no ability to free themselves from their awful jail. With Christ’s triumphant resurrection, all those who bow the knee to Christ and His shed blood at Calvary are liberated from the ugly clutches of Satan.

Whilst they were captives of the devil from birth, they found in Christ an escape from their awful bondage. Christ indeed “led captivity captive” when He defeated Satan at the cross and rose victorious to the splendour of heaven. He confronted Lucifer on the believer’s behalf and roundly defeated him. He was their representative. Jesus paid their enormous debt the believer owed and took their sentence upon Himself. We are therefore the spoils of war. We are the trophies of His grace.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I told you but you ignored it. I do not think SI and I disagree. Even if we did, hello, we are humans. Premils disagree.

But that makes one of you wrong. I know why premils disagree. But for you guys it is worse- you say it was spirituall y given to you by god. So one of you got a false spirit.

What about the extent of his influence? What type of entity could possibly be “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? In fact: who are “them that perish”?

Is your grammar that bad you cannot even know what is talked about there? It is not the antichrist but:

. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

what is in teh persihing is the deceivableness of unrighteousness. C'mon man this is first grade grammar.

This text tells us that those who have “the mystery of iniquity” are damned “for all eternity because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). This, in turn, results in God sends “them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:11). Here is the mark of reprobation! Here is the mark of the beast! What results is unthinkable: “they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thess 2:12).

Well this passage says God sends a strong delusion. YOu say this is the mark of reporbation. So you are now saying that God sends the mark of the beast??

Revelation 13:11-18
King James Version

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

So now you are saying that God is teh beast that comes out of the earth? It says here it is the one pre-mils call the false prophet that causes all to wear the mark! You just said in Thess. it is God who makes people take the mark of reprobation.

 

[WPM]

Well I await your explanation then.

Are you just trying to be difficult here or can you not read what I presented?

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldn't wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.