The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

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Ronald Nolette

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1. The beast has been around for over 2000 years (Revelation 17:8, Revelation 17:11-13, 1 John 2:18-23, 1 John 4:1-3, 5-6, 2 John 1:7, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3-13). No man has lived that long on earth. Only a wicked spirit or an evil empire could possibly fulfil that portrayal.
2. How can a literal human being be literally “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? This would suggest him being in every single unsaved person. Only a spirit can do that.
3. The beast carries the allegiance of all the non-elect. No single human being has or ever or will possess that wholesale allegiance. Only a broader worldly spirit enjoys all the loyalty of the wicked.
4. There is nowhere in Scripture that shows human beings in the abyss (Luke 8:31, Romans 10:7, Revelation 9:1, 2, 11, 11:7, 17:8, and 20:1, 3). Any time it is mentioned, it is shown to be the exclusive abode of Satan and his demons.
5. What man possesses 7 heads? These describe 7 wicked kingdoms in history with 7 kings ruling over them. No man can possibly satisfy that.
6. According to the original Greek, and in contrast to what many people teach, 666 is the number of “man,” not the number of “a man.”
7. Finally, what human being in history lives in, and rises up out of, the sea at the end? Such an idea is non-sensical.


Well teh beast is called a man. YOu reinterpret him to be something other. and you reinteprret him to be here for over 2,000 years.

So pray tell when did the beast get his start somewhere around 1 AD? and if he is around that long- who/what is he?

I do believe that the antichrist is a hybrid just like the beings of Gensis 6. angle marrying human women and producing a hybrid race. The antichrist is the physical son of satan! Just like Jesus had a unique birth, so won't the antichrist, the counterfeit son, have a unique birth. We have the real trinity and the counterfeit trinity.

Satan (father)
antichrist (son)
false prophet (holy spirit)

Genesis 3 shows that when teh seed of teh woman (singular) shall crush the seed of the serpent (singular) Both match in cased number and form. so if the seed of the woman is a "person" so isn't the seed of teh "serpent" a person. Unless of course you have reinterpreted that as well.
 

Ronald Nolette

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As you study the 7 vials and compare them to the 7 trumpets you cannot help but see that they parallel each other. This negates the chronological approach.

First Trumpet/Vial - upon the earth
Second Trumpet/Vial - upon the sea
Third Trumpet/Vial - upon the rivers and fountains of waters
Fourth Trumpet/Vial - upon the sun
Fifth Trumpet/Vial - the followers of antichrist afflicted with grievous pain
Sixth Trumpet/Vial – a catastrophic final battle emanating from that great river Euphrates
Seventh Trumpet/ Vial - the end!

they are sinmiliar but do not match in consequences, reach and results! That is an easy one. and neither of these match the opening of teh seals nor th eevents of babvylon.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Quote it, instead of making sweeping claims!!!



Quote it, instead of making sweeping claims!!!

As soon as you identify the beast, his mark and teh false prophet and those who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and the multiple Jesus sitting on multiple thrones according to y9oru reintperpretation. I gave you teh chapters, if you are the student you seem to be, you should be able to go right to the portions.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Calm down please.

It is the dead in Christ rescued from Hades after the first resurrection. I wrote this to another poster.

Matt 27:44-57

35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots…
44 The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his teeth.
45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour (this is from midday till 3pm).
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

Look what all is going on here. Immediately upon Christ’s death the earthquake arrives causing the curtain in the temple to be cut in two. This showed us that the work was indeed complete. The penalty was paid.

The “centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.” This was the scene at the cross. This is not a natural disaster that hit 3 days later.

Having established that the earthquake occurred when He gave up the ghost, verse 52 adds more information as to what was going on: “And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”

Where actually where these resurrected “saints which slept” before Christ secured this resurrection?

Abraham’s bosom.

We can only conclude that the emptying of Abraham’s bosom occurred at the cross.

As soon as Christ died there was a mass evacuation from Hades.

Ephesians 4:8-10 says, when he (Christ) ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.).”

The result of this can be where the New Testament locates the dead in Christ after the victory of the death and resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who is this group that is called “captivity” here? It is those sinful men that would be set free by Christ’s victory over death. They were miserably bound in solid spiritual chains. They were imprisoned in a dark prison without any hope of pardon or release. Isaiah 14:17 succinctly tells us that Lucifer “opened not the house of his prisoner.” They had no ability to free themselves from their awful jail. With Christ’s triumphant resurrection, all those who bow the knee to Christ and His shed blood at Calvary are liberated from the ugly clutches of Satan.

Whilst they were captives of the devil from birth, they found in Christ an escape from their awful bondage. Christ indeed “led captivity captive” when He defeated Satan at the cross and rose victorious to the splendour of heaven. He confronted Lucifer on the believer’s behalf and roundly defeated him. He was their representative. Jesus paid their enormous debt the believer owed and took their sentence upon Himself. We are therefore the spoils of war. We are the trophies of His grace.


I am calm.

So please show those OT saints in Abrhamas bosom who were beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and did not worship teh beast, or his image or take his mark.
 

WPM

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Is your grammar that bad you cannot even know what is talked about there?


C'mon man this is first grade grammar.

Please do not lecture anyone on their grammar or reading ability. Your grammar/spelling is the worst on this board.

It is not the antichrist but:

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

what is in teh persihing is the deceivableness of unrighteousness.

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that wicked one, have been about for 2,000 years+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man. It's when God gives up on someone.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Other titles include, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 years+.

Well this passage says God sends a strong delusion. YOu say this is the mark of reporbation. So you are now saying that God sends the mark of the beast??

Revelation 13:11-18
King James Version

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

So now you are saying that God is teh beast that comes out of the earth? It says here it is the one pre-mils call the false prophet that causes all to wear the mark! You just said in Thess. it is God who makes people take the mark of reprobation.

Do you even understand what reprobation is? It is when God hands a man over eternally to his own lusts. It is when He gives up on a human being. It is when after they have hardened their heart for so long, He hardens their heart. God decides when a man has one over a line for the last time.

Exodus 9:34-35: "And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses."

Pharaoh hardened his heart, God then hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

Romans 1: 18-32 tells us, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

How you think will determine what you do. If your mind is reprobate so also will your actions be. The symbolism seems to contemplate the ability to think and the ability to do. It is a matter of belief and action. The mark is a representation of those who have yielded their minds and bodies into the service of the beast, of those who accept the teachings and obey the commands of the beast; they worship the beast.

This damned company can never be saved. They are eternally excluded from the Lamb’s book of life. We should note, reprobation is always seen to be in time, whereas election is always in eternity. The wicked expressly "receive" this mark in life after years of continuous and stubborn rebellion.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Are you just trying to be difficult here or can you not read what I presented?

Revelation 19:11-16 makes clear, And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall shepherd them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

Verses 17-18 says, I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Amils take this literal! This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors! Check out the detail here and show me how anyone could survive this? Revelation 19 forbids your doctrine. This shows how Premils are not the literalists they constantly claim. They spiritualize multiple passages that expose their doctrine. You localize the destruction in Revelation 19, despite it saying the opposite, that “the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great” would be destroyed. The suffix "both free and bond, both small and great” is added to insure even Premils couldn't wiggle out of this. The beast's army relates to all who are not in the Lamb's Book of Life from the foundation of the world. Work that out! That is as water-tight and as comprehensive and all-embracing as the Holy Spirit can explain it. Obviously not enough for Premils, with their preconceived doctrine on chronology.

No you do not take it literal. You have Jesus destroying all of humanity.

Your error is that you forget that Jesus returns to a specific place. where the ARMIES of teh Antichrist are gatheres to battle against Jesus! That is not all of lost humanity- you are forcing that upon the verse illicitly.

And if jesus is going to smite every lost person, why does God say He is going to rule the nations (that He does battle against ) with a rod of iron. Now I am not up to all the latest technology- but I do not believe teh dead need to be ruled with a rod of iron.
 

Ronald Nolette

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Please do not like to anyone on their grammar or reading ability. Your grammar/spelling is the worst on this board.

Well my spelling is bad. But even though My grammar can sli-- it is still better than how you view SCriptures grammar.

Contrary to what many imagine, or have been taught, the beast, antichrist, the mystery of iniquity, the son of perdition, and that wicked one, have been about for 2,000 years+. The beast therefore has to be a system, kingdom or a spirit. It obviously cannot be a man. It's when God gives up on someone.

Most Bible scholars of whatever persuasion identify “the beast” with “antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. They believe that they all refer to the same entity. Other titles include, “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” one.

The reason why many good Bible scholars have held that the “man of sin” is not a lone human being is because he has been alive and kicking for a lot longer than the lifetime of any human. In fact, the beast/antichrist/the mystery of iniquity/the son of perdition/that Wicked one has been about for 2,000 years+.

so then if it a system, kingdom (it can't be a spirit, god never defined him/it as a spirit) and it has been around over 2,000 years, it should be a snap for you to identify it. Also the false prophet has also been around for over 2,000 years as well- so you can identify the second beast as well.
 

WPM

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No you do not take it literal. You have Jesus destroying all of humanity.

Your error is that you forget that Jesus returns to a specific place. where the ARMIES of teh Antichrist are gatheres to battle against Jesus! That is not all of lost humanity- you are forcing that upon the verse illicitly.

And if jesus is going to smite every lost person, why does God say He is going to rule the nations (that He does battle against ) with a rod of iron. Now I am not up to all the latest technology- but I do not believe teh dead need to be ruled with a rod of iron.

This text exposes your position here. Can you not admit that? You are fighting with Scripture. You are forcing your theology on the sacred text. You are adding unto Scripture. That is not wise.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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  • And what doctrines did you study? Just like in covenant theology, in dispensational theology, there are some very strange premil teachings out there.
I understand that not every premil believes exactly the same, but I am familiar with all of the basics and the better known variants of premil. You, on the other hand, are very lacking in your understanding of even the basics of Amil that most Amils agree on.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Those beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and did not worship the beast or take his mark. After all the bible says they are resurrected and reign with jesus for that non1,000 1,000 years. and according to you the 1,000 years started with jesus resurrection, so they had to have died before teh resurrection of jesus in order to be raised.
You just aren't paying attention to what I'm telling you. I think you have very poor reading comprehension skills. I do not see the first resurrection as being a mass bodily resurrection as you do. Do you understand that?
 

Spiritual Israelite

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so according to yopur spiritual interpretation, the entire book of revelation up to the return of Jesus all runs at the same time? so the seals are happening the same time as the bowls as the trumpets as Babylon the Great as the seven churches etc?

Please sho wfrom history these events as they unjfolded. And which recap are we in now?
The recaps are parallel to each other, so it isn't a matter of which one we are in now. Each recap covers the time period from Christ's first coming to His second coming. We can see things described that are related to the day of His return in several passages in Revelation, such as Revelation 6:12-17, Revelation 11:15-18, Revelation 14:14-20, Revelation 16:17-21, Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20:9.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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But that makes one of you wrong. I know why premils disagree. But for you guys it is worse- you say it was spirituall y given to you by god. So one of you got a false spirit.
How is it worse for amils to disagree on something than it is for premils? That is complete nonsense. Don't we all believe we get our understanding from God?

And would you please capitalize God for crying out loud? You come across as someone that I find very difficult to take seriously because you are so incredibly immature.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Well teh beast is called a man. YOu reinterpret him to be something other. and you reinteprret him to be here for over 2,000 years.
Where does it call the beast a man? If that was the case then he is at least around 2,000 years old by now. Have you never read this:

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

What is your understanding of John saying that the beast was? He clearly indicated that the beast was around even before he wrote the book. So, how could the beast be a man?

So pray tell when did the beast get his start somewhere around 1 AD? and if he is around that long- who/what is he?
The beast is an it, not a he.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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No you do not take it literal. You have Jesus destroying all of humanity.
That is what it literally says:

Revelation 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

Your error is that you forget that Jesus returns to a specific place. where the ARMIES of teh Antichrist are gatheres to battle against Jesus! That is not all of lost humanity- you are forcing that upon the verse illicitly.
Your error is that you are interpreting Armageddon to be a literal, physical place on earth. That is not how it works in Revelation. It refers to spiritual or figurative entities by names used in ancient times such as Babylon. Babylon in Revelation is not a literal physical place on the earth called Babylon. Another example of this is in Revelation 20:8 where it refers to the people from all over the earth who oppose "the camp of the saints" figuratively as "Gog, and Magog". It's obviously not referring to the literal Gog and Magog. In Revelation 11:7 the great city is "spiritually called Sodom and Egypt". Repeatedly, in Revelation, spiritual entities are given names used for ancient earthly places. You are not recognizing that.

And if jesus is going to smite every lost person, why does God say He is going to rule the nations (that He does battle against ) with a rod of iron. Now I am not up to all the latest technology- but I do not believe teh dead need to be ruled with a rod of iron.
What does it mean to rule with a rod of iron? What is described in Revelation 19:15-18? Complete destruction. What is described here:

Psalm 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Clearly, it's not talking about ruling in the way you are thinking it does. Instead, it's talking about destruction. That Jesus will destroy all of His enemies when He returns is also taught in passages like Matthew 24:35-39, 2 Thess 1:7-9 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.
 
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WPM

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How is it worse for amils to disagree on something than it is for premils? That is complete nonsense. Don't we all believe we get our understanding from God?

And would you please capitalize God for crying out loud? You come across as someone that I find very difficult to take seriously because you are so incredibly immature.

This shows the pettiness of some Premils.
 
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WPM

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No you do not take it literal. You have Jesus destroying all of humanity.

Your error is that you forget that Jesus returns to a specific place. where the ARMIES of teh Antichrist are gatheres to battle against Jesus! That is not all of lost humanity- you are forcing that upon the verse illicitly.

And if jesus is going to smite every lost person, why does God say He is going to rule the nations (that He does battle against ) with a rod of iron. Now I am not up to all the latest technology- but I do not believe teh dead need to be ruled with a rod of iron.

Yes. The Bible repeatedly and clearly teaches that Jesus will destroy all humanity that is not saved when He comes.
 

WPM

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There is no mention of Satan being bound now nor loosed for a little season. So you are declaring that "no mention" means they believe one way, when that is not a given. No one seems to declare the totality of Scripture nor the totality of what they may or may not accept. Just because people cannot get their facts straight, does not mean pre-mill is wrong.

There are 8,000 rigid years of creation. Satan's operating within that time or outside of it is up to God.

Where do you get that there are 8,000 rigid years of creation?
 

WPM

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You need to use your rational mind to understand truth from God, as well as divine revelation. They are not mutually exclusive. A major principle of interpretation, agreed upon by most Christian thinkers, is that one must apply the science called hermeneutics. It is a safeguard against poor exegesis, which leads to many errors and even divisions among good Christians.



You get offended by about anything I say. You get offended that I'm a Premil, apparently. But I'm not going to stop believing in Premil just because you're offended.

I happen to think you preach Replacement Theology. You shouldn't be offended by being assigned a name that truly represents what you believe. You claim you know what it is, but you really don't. If you can show me that your beliefs differ from RT, I will stop calling you that.



The word "replacement" alone does not describe what the theology is. It is used because for those who disagree with you, God's covenant with the Jews has been terminated and replaced by the covenant of Christ, which is now race and nation neutral. Is that what you believe or not?



I do understand that. But Christians like me have believed that God's covenant with Israel has never been revoked--just temporarily side-lined. On the other hand, people like you believe that God's covenant with Israel either failed or never really was intended for that nation. Instead it was intended only for a non-national assembly of peoples from all countries.

That dismisses the notion of a restored nation of Israel, which I believe had been called to be a theocracy. For Replacement Theologians, the national theocracy has expired and has been replaced by a non-national group consisting of many remnants of nations. There is no more hope of a national constitution for Israel as a theocracy. The belief is only in a non-political entity called the Church with no sense of the fulfillment of Israel's promise of a national theocracy.

I personally believe the Kingdom of God in the Millennium will actually consist of not just one but many theocracies--as many as there will be Christian nations at that time. Israel modeled a theocracy for the nations. And when the time comes, many nations will exhibit God's favored theocratic constitution for the nations.

The "fulfillment of Israel's promises" is found alone in Christ. It is in possessing spiritual territory that Christ has offered to all nations. There are no national theocracies under the new covenant.
 

Randy Kluth

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The "fulfillment of Israel's promises" is found alone in Christ. It is in possessing spiritual territory that Christ has offered to all nations. There are no national theocracies under the new covenant.

Jesus' Gospel was a "Gospel of the Kingdom." That is a "theocracy." There clearly will be an eschatological theocracy under the New Covenant.
 
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