The founding fathers of modern-day Premillennialism were heretics.

[Timtofly]

But, He isn't going to force anyone to believe. Never has and never will.

So God did not force you to believe Amil?

You chose that erroneous view of Scripture all on your own?

 

[Timtofly]

Papias, Irenaeus, and Tertullian were NOT Premil. they were Chiliast. These were 2 different animals. Ancient Chiliasm was mild compared to what we have with modern-day Premillennialism. In fact, the ancient Millennialist view holds more fundamentals in common with modern-day Amillenniliasm than Premillennialism. Whilst Chiliasts believed there would be a literal thousand years of time following the second coming they anticipated a perfect renewed earth devoid of corruption and sin. They saw the destruction of all the wicked and the regeneration of our current earth at (and through) the glorious coming of Christ, like Amils.

The thousand years were merely envisioned as a final perfect conclusion to a seven thousand period of time. It was a perfect Sabbath rest of the glorified saints. It was essentially the perfect glorified porch-way into eternity. Amillennialists also see the elimination of the wicked and all corruption at His return, albeit they anticipate a new perfected earth.

No, you claim this "gateway to perfection" is the here and now on earth. They saw it post the Second Coming. That is pre-mill because the Second Coming happens and then this chilia period. They did not call this future intermediate state, the here and now.

 

[Timtofly]

Ancient Chiliasts had a very rigid system of eschatological belief in 7000 literal rigid years of human history. After this, they believed the redeemed were into the new heaven and new earth. That may explain why “time” comes to an end right at the very completion of their future millennium and how they make no allowance for Satan’s little season.

Another strong reason why they did not accept Satan’s little season at the end was because of their expectation of a future millennium. They saw it as a perfect pristine unspoiled arrangement that was liberated from all the bondage of corruption. That meant they saw no sin or sinners, no decay or disease, no dying or crying, no devil or his demons.

They believed that Satan and his demons were destroyed at the second coming. It is not just that the ECFs believed Satan was bound at the First Advent, not one early writer that I can find (up until AD240) taught a further binding of Satan at the second coming. You are trying to foist that upon them without the slightest evidence (or justification) to do so. What is more, they believed the devil and his angels were destroyed at the second coming. So, there was no evil one to populate the age to come and no wicked to deceive. This too is akin to modern day Amil. Think about this: for 210 years after the death of Christ all the Fathers anticipated a perfect age to come free of the bondage of corruption and free of all rebellion in the visible and invisible realm.

It is certainly significant that there was a widespread acceptance among the early Chiliast writers that Satan was bound through the earthly ministry of Christ. But what runs hand-in-hand with that is the fate of Satan when Jesus comes. The most startling thing about the beliefs of the earliest Millennialists who spoke of this is that they believed Satan, his minions and all evil would finally be eliminated at the second coming. This is extremely surprising because it runs totally contrary to what is loudly taught today by all modern Premillennials, of all sections. An obvious and vital by-product of that is that it eliminates the whole idea of Satan’s little season 1,000 years after the coming of the Lord. This is undoubtedly a curious position, allowing for the actual detail of Revelation 20. This suggests that early apostate Judaism had a greater influence on the formulation of this early Chiliasts theory than Revelation 20. In fact, early Millennialists seem to have acquired many of their core early beliefs from Christ-rejecting Judaism.

Justin Martyr

One of the leading early Chiliast proponents of this was Justin Martyr. He believed that Satan would be destroyed at our Lord’s return:

[T]he serpent that sinned from the beginning, and the angels like him, may be destroyed, and that death may be contemned, and for ever quit, at the second coming of the Christ Himself (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 45).​

This couldn’t be clearer! This ancient writer depicts the termination of all evil at the glorious return of Christ. Justin explains how Satan, his angels and death itself are destroyed at the second coming of Christ. This allows no room for the Premillennialism scheme where Satan is bound 1,000 years after the second coming and then released to gather Gog and Magog to fight Christ and the glorified saints. Not only is Satan and his minions and death destroyed at Christ’s coming, but, all the bondage of corruption is destroyed. He teaches that there shall be “freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief.” This, paradoxically, is one of the main dividing points between Amillennial/Postmillennial teaching and that of Premillennialism reference the appearing of our Lord.

He further states in another work:

For the prophets have proclaimed two advents of His: the one, that which is already past, when He came as a dishonoured and suffering Man; but the second, when, according to prophecy, He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils (1st Apology, Chapter LII).​

The second coming sees the elimination of every enemy of righteousness. The coming of Christ is climactic. In the eyes of most of the earliest Chiliast writers there was no allowance for sin and Satan, crying and dying, Satan and his minions on a future millennial earth. It is a new perfect porchway into the eternal realm.

For among us the prince of the wicked spirits is called the serpent, and Satan, and the devil, as you can learn by looking into our writings. And that he would be sent into the fire with his host, and the men who follow him, and would be punished for an endless duration, Christ foretold. For the reason why God has delayed to do this, is His regard for the human race. For He foreknows that some are to be saved by repentance, some even that are perhaps not yet born (1st Apology of Justin, Chapter 28).​

According to Justin, the seeming delay in the return of Christ is for the special purpose of the salvation of souls. But when this occurs, he indicates the punishment of Satan, his devils, and the wicked occurs. The fate of all of these are carefully tied together. They are all punished at the same time. He states in the same book:

[Y]ou hesitate to confess that He is Christ, as the Scriptures and the events witnessed and done in His name prove, perhaps for this reason, lest you be persecuted by the rulers, who, under the influence of the wicked and deceitful spirit, the serpent, will not cease putting to death and persecuting those who confess the name of Christ until He come again, and destroy them all, and render to each his deserts (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter 39).​

Once again, the second coming is presented as the time when the devil and all evil come to an end. This is clear and repeated in the teaching of these early Chiliasts.

There is no mention of Satan being bound now nor loosed for a little season. So you are declaring that "no mention" means they believe one way, when that is not a given. No one seems to declare the totality of Scripture nor the totality of what they may or may not accept. Just because people cannot get their facts straight, does not mean pre-mill is wrong.

There are 8,000 rigid years of creation. Satan's operating within that time or outside of it is up to God.

 

[Timtofly]

Sure there is, Jesus Christ at his "Second Coming" is the fire seen in Revelation 20:9 coming out of heaven

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8KJV
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

No, because Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron in Jerusalem. That fire at the end is from God and is literal fire that literally consumes those people. Fire coming down on Sodom and Gomorrah does not imply Jesus' Second Coming to destroy those cities.

Yes, there is a refining fire at the Second Coming. But there is not a Second Coming nor implied Second Coming, every time fire comes down from heaven. Elijah called down fire from Heaven. That was not the Second Coming of Jesus. Fire from heaven can happen, and not mean nor imply the Second Coming.

 

[Truth7t7]

No, because Jesus is ruling with a rod of iron in Jerusalem. That fire at the end is from God and is literal fire that literally consumes those people. Fire coming down on Sodom and Gomorrah does not imply Jesus' Second Coming to destroy those cities.

Yes, there is a refining fire at the Second Coming. But there is not a Second Coming nor implied Second Coming, every time fire comes down from heaven. Elijah called down fire from Heaven. That was not the Second Coming of Jesus. Fire from heaven can happen, and not mean nor imply the Second Coming.

Your response is in opposition to scriptural truth, you will closely note no scripture was posted, just man's words that are empty

 

[Timtofly]

Your response is in opposition to scriptural truth, you will closely note no scripture was posted, just man's words that are empty

I was commenting on the same verses you posted. Do I need to put them in my response if they are already in the quoted material you posted?

Your point is also void of Scripture, as you posted more than Scripture, but your own commentary.

So you avoided my point altogether. As will I your point. Since what I quoted here also contains no Scripture in your reply:

Your response is in opposition to scriptural truth, you will closely note no scripture was posted, just man's words that are empty

See, no Scripture in your post. Thus according to you an empty post, and thus can be discarded.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Amils rightly consider the intra-Advent period to be an indefinite period. This is last days period running through to the second coming. It is therefore proper to view Revelation 20 the same. The symbolic usage of numbers in Revelation reinforces that. The genre of Revelation and the symbolism of the book lends itself to this type of understanding. You could also apply that same reasoning to the “one hour” that the beast reigns with the “ten kings” in Revelation 17:12 is? i.e. is it sixty minutes? Of course not! It means a short period of time. A thousand years represents a long period of time.

YOu say symbolic numbers.

I heard from covenantee- but what is your response as to what the 144,000 and 12 12,000 means in specifics. Stop the general 3 -5 word answers about.

As for rightly consider- well yes it is a consideration that lacks facts.

As I showed you , declared Stansd imprisoned- but Paul and Peter both say He is alive and active in this world. One side is wrong. Do you consider Peter and Paul to be in error?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

1. Do you believe Satan and his minions are physical beings?
2. Is the dragon in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical dragon?
3. Is the serpent in Revelation 20:2 a literal physical serpent?
4. Is the key mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal door key?
5. Is the chain mentioned in Revelation 20:1 a literal metal chain?
6. Is the prison mentioned in Revelation 20:7 a literal brick prison?
7. Do you believe demons need to be detained in a literal physical prison with literal metal chains in order to be restrained?
8. Can a prisoner in a prison have great wrath while in chains?
9. Does imprisonment mean immobility?
10. Does it mean a prisoner cannot do harm?
11. Can a dog on a chain walk or roam about?
12. Can a prisoner in a prison walk or roam about?
13. Does a prisoner have the ability to kill, steal, destroy, rape and embezzle in prison?

When you answer my questions as to your consideration of what REv. 20:4-6 means then I will gladly answer this.

And as we have on the table that this 1,000 years is not 1,000 years and it started at Jesus' resurrection I ask again for you to answer these questions before I respond to anymore of yours. these were asked first. So don't avoid them but answer them please.

As is claimed by amils here the 1,000 years began at jesus' resurrection. so then:

1. Who was the beast that reigned before Jesus?
2. What was His mark? Is it still around?
3. As you stated that verse 4 is just about Jesus rising from teh dead; how many thrones does He occupy? It is plural here.
4. When was Jesus beheaded for testimony about Himself?
5. What mark did He reject and what beast did He refuse to worship? Is it the same beast in rev. 13 that has teh heads and horns? If not why not? then what beast is it? If you say Satan, please provode evidence that Satan is also called a beast in Revelation.

I await your specific answers to these questions.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Provide the information, or apologize for lying again.

show me when I laid any other time. I will search. and if it is just confined to this thread, I will gladly apologize for mixing things up. Lying? NO confusing answers here to another thread? Been there, done that and no doubt will do it again!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You are missing the crucial point. The word poimaino shows us that Christ is going to divide at the end between the sheep and the goats like a shepherd. You avoid the key destructive detail contained in the Greek and Hebrew words that show the destruction of the nations. For example: The original Greek in Revelation 19:15 states “he should (patasso ho ethnos kai autous poimaino autous) smite the nations, and shepherd them with a rod of iron.”

And why would Jesus need a rod =of iron in heaven to rule over us? Are we going to be able tro sin in heaven? Your scriptural evidence?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with no ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

Once again you have reinterpreted Scriptures to fit your agenda!

Jesus shepherds with a rod if iron. Jesus does not shepherd the lost- He judges them and sends them to the lake of fire!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Thats right ! that rod of iron which He shepherds His sheep, He uses to smash the heathen. smashing is not equal to shepherding, unless you have reinterpreted to say the lost are sheep as well.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

Why? Because it was never brought up before. We just started talking about the rod of iron. Another straw man on your part.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Lete me repeat again: He shepherds the sheep with a rod of iron. Why does he need such a stiff rod? the same He uses to smash the heathen? Jesus doesn't shepherd the goats.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.

No because jesus returns to earth in Rev. 19!!! REv. 20 tells us how long His kingdom lasts on earth! And if one accepts the bible as written, He raises the trib saints who were beheaded and they reign with Jesus for 1,000 years.

You have them reigning now with Him , but fail to answer when that resurrection of those beheraded took place, when the beast lived and when and what the mark is they all refused to take. You also have a t least two Jesus' for YOU declares rev. 20:4 is JUST about Jesus first resurrection.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Provide the information, or apologize for lying again.

Well awaiting evidence when I lied a first ro second or thirs time, I do say this.

I reviewed about 1/4 of the 22 reasons thread where I thought you had also posted stuff from the ECF's. I found none in that partial search. I must have conflated the two threads and thought that posts here were on the other thread. I apologize for the error.

Wasn't a lie, just some confusion.

 

[Truth7t7]

And why would Jesus need a rod =of iron in heaven to rule over us? Are we going to be able tro sin in heaven? Your scriptural evidence?

"You Continue To Teach Error"

You were clearly shown in post #1100 and several times, once again

Problem is your interpretation of "Rod Of Iron"

You falsely believe and teach its some sort of rulers scepter "Wrong"!

A "Rod Of Iron" is a tool of "Destruction" that a Potter destroys clay vessels with

Jesus returns and destroy's like a Potter with a "Rod Of Iron" its that simple

Sad part is, you have been clearly shown the truth several times, and continue to teach error

Rod Of Iron is a "Tool Of Destruction" not a Kings "Scepter" as you falsely believe and teach

Revelation 2:27KJV
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Revelation 19:15KJV
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Truth7t7]

Lete me repeat again: He shepherds the sheep with a rod of iron. Why does he need such a stiff rod? the same He uses to smash the heathen? Jesus doesn't shepherd the goats.

"You Continue To Teach Error"

The "Rod Of Iron" is a tool of "Destruction" not a Kings "Scepter or Staff" as you falsely believe and teach, as clearly shown in post #1257 above

 

[WPM]

And why would Jesus need a rod =of iron in heaven to rule over us? Are we going to be able tro sin in heaven? Your scriptural evidence?

Yes. The coming of the Lord is the end. Revelation shows no survivors, in keeping with the rest of Scripture. You reward the wicked by populating your millennium with billions of rebels.

Revelation 19:11-16: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

In this narrative He comes as the Lord of glory and removes all evil with the power of His Word. He returns as a man of war to destroy all those left behind. Revelation 19:11 says, “in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” The imagery surrounding Christ in this reading is that of wrath and judgment. The nations have missed their day of opportunity like the wicked in previous judgments, now they must face their deserved recompense of destruction and eternal punishment. Christ comes in glory and power to pour out wrath, and we learn "His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth. Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

The solemn language relates to the wrath of God being poured out on those left behind at the coming of Christ. This proves that “the nations” will not survive the wrath that emanates from Christ. How can any nation survive this closing destruction? This is final justice being meted out of the lost.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: He is coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted thousand-years age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule (poimaino) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

The concluding phrase (“shall they be broken to shivers”) is actually taken from the lone Greek word suntribo (Strong’s 4937) meaning to crush completely, i.e. to shatter. This would suggest a total obliteration of the wicked at His appearing.

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). This teaching is taken from Psalm 2:1-12. See what it is saying: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

Why do you also ignore the Hebrew here? The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

The Lord encounters only 2 types of people when He comes – saved or lost, sheep or goats. The sheep enter into their eternal inheritance; the goats receive their eternal punishment. Nothing could be simpler. You invent some 3rd group of humans that are too righteous to be destroyed at the second coming, yet too wicked to be rescued, yet Premil argue among themselves who they actually are. The reality is: they don't exist.

Nowhere in any of these passages is there any insinuation of a 1,000 years shepherding (or ruling) over the nations -as Premil alleges. What is more, Nowhere in Rev 20 is there any mention of (1) a rod of iron, (2) Christ on earth, (3) and therefore Christ ruling on earth with a rod of iron for 1,000 years. You will only find that in the Premil textbooks.

 

[WPM]

1. Who was the beast that reigned before Jesus?

Revelation 13:1: "And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.”

What are these seven heads of the beast? We do not have to guess.

Revelation 17:9-13 further enlarges, “The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.”

There are layers to the symbolism of Revelation. The seven heads represent seven mountains, but the next level of interpretation seems to render the seven mountains seven kingdoms which seven kings reign over. After describing the seven mountains, we learn: “And there are seven kings.” Kings reign over kingdoms, not over physical mountains. The fact is: throughout Scripture, mountains represent kingdoms that kings reign over.

The symbolism is very deliberate. Jerusalem is built on seven mountains, so is Rome. The writer takes these and broadens them out to describe global realties. He may well have lent the idea of the Roman empire to impress the wider influence of godless power through the generations by using the symbolism of seven mountains to depict the completeness of the wickedness of this world.

Mountains in Scripture are often identified with kingdoms. The mountain of the house of God is clearly the kingdom of God. Mountains are identified with carnal kingdoms while hills are associated with smaller worldly nations. The seven heads, which are mountains, represent seven carnal kingdoms that have been arrayed against God’s people in Scripture. Of these seven kingdoms, five are prior to John’s prophecy, one present to him and one is yet future. Moreover, the seventh kingdom is predicted to manifest for “a short space.” Interestingly, there is an eighth kingdom. This is the beast himself, obviously rising up in his own right rather than in a delegated sense (through other evil earthly empires) like before.

The woman sitting upon the beast represents the religious whore sitting upon “seven” secular “mountains” (or kingdoms) ruled by “seven kings.” The seven heads expressly symbolize seven kingdoms before, during and after John’s day. Each has a distinct individual ruler.

The beast is said to be integral to the other seven previous kingdoms; this beast “was” before John – obviously manifesting through the five tributary kingdoms before John, he “is” to John in the form of the one kingdom in existence at the time of John, and one is still future to John as it has “not yet come.” Additional to this we learn, “the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.” The seven kingdoms are seven heads on the beast – thus the beast is described as being “of the seven.” The seven heads are part of this being. The number seven is significant as it normally represents completeness in Scripture. This book places the beast within the complete scheme of this dark antichrist reign.

This beast obviously represents the overall influence of Satan from which all the other individual kingdoms emanate throughout time. The beast system is that demonic spirit/influence/empire overseeing every wicked kingdom upon earth from the beginning. This worldly beast embodies the wickedness that controls the kingdoms of this world. It seems to influence the overall system that is energized by the spirit of this world.

At the cross the beast went “into perdition” being curtailed in his wholesale deluding of the Gentile people. Notwithstanding, the beast is associated with the reign of evil on this earth throughout this intra-Advent period, although restrained from what the beast would have desired through the Gospel influence. Prior to the end this beast is released from his spiritual restraints and moves to the fore. This is his time to finally flex his muscles. This is his final throw.

As he starts to perpetrate his antichrist agenda, the beast establishes “ten kings” to do his dirty work. These operate from within the beast kingdom. They are described as the beast’s “ten horns.” This reign of havoc only seems to be short: they are said to “receive power as kings one hour with the beast.” There is unity amongst these kings, “These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.” These emissaries of the devil's kingdom promote and enforce the devil's antichrist system.

We need to piece together this symbolism and align it with history in order to establish its full meaning. Firstly, Rome was one of the four kingdoms Daniel saw. It was also the existing kingdom when John received this prophesy here. John sees five great kingdoms before the one existing in his day (Rome). Three of the five former kingdoms probably refer to Daniel’s kingdoms: Babylon, Media and Persia and Grecia. This leaves two more – obviously subsequent to them. I believe these refer to the Egyptian Dynasty and the Assyria rule.

1. Egyptian empire
2. Assyrian empire
3. Babylonian empire
4. Media and Persia empire
5. Greek empire (five were)
6. Roman empire (one is existing at the time of the writing of Revelation)
7. One further evil empire (between Rome and the beast at the end)
8. The beast.

Simon Kistermaker suggests a slight modification:

1. Assyrian empire
2. Babylonian empire
3. Neo-Babylonian empire
4. Media and Persia empire
5. Greek empire (five were)
6. Roman empire (one is existing at the time of the writing of Revelation)
7. One further evil empire (between Rome and the beast at the end)
8. The beast.

Many commentators see these kingdoms as those who stood against God’s people but also invaded and subjugated natural Israel.

If we are seeing this right then that still leaves two other significant wicked empires after Rome. Whilst we know the last empire is the beast (after his release from the abyss), that still leaves us with the seventh kingdom which appears before end. With the aid of history, we could certainly speculate what the penultimate wicked kingdom is in-between the Roman Empire (in Bible times) and the last wicked unrestrained manifestation of the beast at the end. A popular view that many Bible students and historians hold is that it is the Ottoman Empire. This was certainly one of the greatest empires in history. Moreover, it actually spanned three continents. This in essence was an Islamic Empire? Whilst there have been other evil systems like Fascism and Communism that have arisen in this past hundred years, the only empire to be a direct threat to Christianity since the Roman Empire of the first century has been the Ottoman Empire. This also totally overrun natural Israel.

1. Egyptian empire
2. Assyrian empire
3. Babylonian empire
4. Media and Persian empire
5. Greek empire
6. Roman empire
7. Ottoman empire (???)
8. The beast empire

It could be argued that Christianity significantly wounded the Ottoman Empire. But today it is returning. The Ottoman empire was of course, Muslim. And we see Islam rising again, and with the same goals of a global Islamic Caliphate. It is today, once again, a direct threat to Christianity (and everybody else for that matter).

Could the revived kingdom be Mystery Babylon – a wicked global manifestation of all that opposes God, and a reflection of the evil character of ancient Babylon. Could it be a revitalized Rome, in the shape of the Roman Catholic Church?

The fact that the beast possesses seven obnoxious heads representing seven evil kingdoms throughout time, five of which were already destroyed before John, the sixth was the Roman Empire existing when he lived, the seventh was to appear somewhere between the Roman Empire, and the second coming of the Lord shows the absurdity of the contention that the beast is a man. What human being in history survived submerged below the sea for more than a few minutes? The next thing the literalist will be telling us is that babies really do come from under cabbage plants!