What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Aunty Jane]

I would enjoy if you could help me with a question I have. Others have called me a JW
on here and you also are using the term. Can you tell me what a JW is?

Ask me...I have been a JW for just on 50 years. It is apparent in the minds of some, that anyone who disagrees with Christendom's version of events...no trinity, no hell, no immortal soul....MUST be a JW....(we are "Jehovah's Witnesses") because we reject all those doctrines.

There are a lot of people who disagree with Christendom's doctrines who are not JW's, but you can't convince many of them. We are all tarred with the same brush, I'm afraid....

We rely on scripture alone to dictate our beliefs and practices.....the churches of Christendom have a lot to answer for in misrepresenting both God and his Christ to their members, failing to recognize the corrupt church who formulated these doctrines long after Jesus was put to death.....and carried over into Protestantism......but the 'die-hards' will stick to it no matter what.....that is their call of course.

 

[Charlie24]

The fact is, it was never there in the first place. All of the Bible writers were Jewish and so was Jesus. The only scripture Jesus and the apostles used was the OT...the Jewish scripture where there is no trinity....and never was. Their God was “one” not three. (Deuteronomy 6:4)

Jesus did not come to introduce a new God and a new religion.....he came to reintroduce the God that the Pharisees had lost, and to introduce a new covenant...one that they knew was foretold by Jeremiah. (Jeremiah 31:31-33)


Actually it doesn’t.....Jesus is not called “the Creator” in any verse of the scriptures. Only the Father is the Creator, but he was not alone. Genesis speaks of “us” and “our” so God was not talking to himself.

The one Paul describes as “the image of the invisible God” was “with” his Father as his “firstborn”. “Firstborn” means the first of your children and we know that God had many “sons”...yet none of them were like his unique “firstborn”........the pre-human Jesus was the agency “through” whom creation was made. If it was made “through him and for him”......so how can Jesus be God? Not only did God involve his son in the creative process, but he was going to gift the creation to him as well.


Most explanations are really interpretations....these do not agree with the Bible’ overall theme, nor does it fit God’s purpose in giving mankind a savior......the savior had to be mortal so that his life could be used to redeem the condemned human race. God is immortal and cannot die, nor would his life pay the price required to redeem Adam’s children.....it would have been an extreme overpayment....like using a hundred trillion cans of bug spray to deal with one mosquito.
Jesus’ life had to be the exact equivalent of Adam’s.....sinless.....which he had to come from outside of the fallen human race. He didn’t have to be God. The redeemer could not be God.


That is the question that we all need to ponder. The scriptures themselves answer that question, but the ‘pet beliefs’ of an apostate church get in the way.....adding meanings to scripture that are out of harmony with everything else that it teaches.

We need to know what the entirety of scripture teaches so that the pieces of the puzzle all fit into one picture. In Christendom...they clearly do not.

No, Jesus Christ is the Creator, whether you will admit it is another thing!

Col. 1:16-17
"For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

 

[Charlie24]

@Aunty Jane, the closest anyone can come to explaining the Trinity was shown to me over 40 years ago in Bible school. It's very simple and laid out in construction terms.

God the Father is the owner of all things.

God the Son is the architect who created the plans for all that exists.

God the Holy Spirit is the contractor who brought it all into existence.

Together they are the one God who created all things.

Now if you can further explain this, have at it!

 

[RLT63]

Ask me...I have been a JW for just on 50 years. It is apparent in the minds of some, that anyone who disagrees with Christendom's version of events...no trinity, no hell, no immortal soul....MUST be a JW....(we are "Jehovah's Witnesses") because we reject all those doctrines.

There are a lot of people who disagree with Christendom's doctrines who are not JW's, but you can't convince many of them. We are all tarred with the same brush, I'm afraid....

We rely on scripture alone to dictate our beliefs and practices.....the churches of Christendom have a lot to answer for in misrepresenting both God and his Christ to their members, failing to recognize the corrupt church who formulated these doctrines long after Jesus was put to death.....and carried over into Protestantism......but the 'die-hards' will stick to it no matter what.....that is their call of course.

Is it okay for a JW to work for a government entity, like The Post Office?

 

[Peterlag]

Ask me...I have been a JW for just on 50 years. It is apparent in the minds of some, that anyone who disagrees with Christendom's version of events...no trinity, no hell, no immortal soul....MUST be a JW....(we are "Jehovah's Witnesses") because we reject all those doctrines.

There are a lot of people who disagree with Christendom's doctrines who are not JW's, but you can't convince many of them. We are all tarred with the same brush, I'm afraid....

We rely on scripture alone to dictate our beliefs and practices.....the churches of Christendom have a lot to answer for in misrepresenting both God and his Christ to their members, failing to recognize the corrupt church who formulated these doctrines long after Jesus was put to death.....and carried over into Protestantism......but the 'die-hards' will stick to it no matter what.....that is their call of course.

I notice if I talk to 10 different Christian groups that I will get 10 different ideas about the same verse and all off them will say they are the one who is reading it in context and the others are not looking at it in context. This has proven to be the biggest reason that I have found why the unbelievers are turned off by Christianity. I stay out of the book of Revelation because I believe most if not all of it deals with Israel and has very little if anything to do with the body of Christ. Now let's talk about something important... where can I get these little cartoons you have jumping on the screen saying ask me?

 

[Peterlag]

I have a question. What does the Trinity belief do to the Christian? Someone who writes well on these forums told me he heard Trinity people do not have any fruit of the spirit. I personally have wondered if many of them are even born again. For example, can you receive the spirit of God if you go to Romans 10:9 and confess with your mouth the Lord God and believe in your heart that God raised God from the dead?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Is it okay for a JW to work for a government entity, like The Post Office?

To us, being “part of the world” is having involvement in the areas of government that touch on direct issues of neutrality...such as government departments that deal with political decisions, interference with other nations’ politics, selling them weapons or decisions regarding the use of weapons in employment.....so, working in government departments that simply delivers mail or that involve serving the public in neutral areas are not seen as against Jesus’ commands to refrain from being “part of the world”. The governments of the world, whilst under the influence of God’s enemy, (1 John 5:19) still provide services that benefit their subjects....still punish law breakers.

We see in Jesus’ day, that the disciples stayed right out of the growing movement of rebellious Jews who wanted to shed the shackles of Roman domination and who who were plotting an overthrow.

Paul told the Christians....
“Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil. Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.” (Romans 13:1-7 - NASB)

So even in that climate of oppression, we see that Christians had to obey their government’s laws, even if they might not agree with them....if it does not go against the law of God, we must obey them. They do provide a measure of protection for God’s servants because they rule with his permission. Imagine if there was anarchy? The work that Christ assigned to his servants could not be carried out. (Matthew 28:19-20)

I hope that answers your question.....

 

[Matthias]

I have a question. What does the Trinity belief do to the Christian? Someone who writes well on these forums told me he heard Trinity people do not have any fruit of the spirit. I personally have wondered if many of them are even born again. For example, can you receive the spirit of God if you go to Romans 10:9 and confess with your mouth the Lord God and believe in your heart that God raised God from the dead?

What the Trinity belief does to the Christian is have him or her asserting and affirming that the Trinity is the one true God.

The Messiah himself makes no such assertion and affirmation. Jesus of Nazareth asserts that his God and the God of his followers, the Father, is the one true God.

That’s a difference that should be noted and pointed out.

I think it’s unwise and totally uncalled for anyone to say that “Trinity people do not have any fruit of the spirit.”

I would even go so far as to say that such an assertion is bearing false witness against “Trinitarian people”.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I notice if I talk to 10 different Christian groups that I will get 10 different ideas about the same verse and all off them will say they are the one who is reading it in context and the others are not looking at it in context. This has proven to be the biggest reason that I have found why the unbelievers are turned off by Christianity.

Absolutely spot on! What better way to steer people away from God than by confusing them about the very nature of God, and the true identity of his son. To turn people away from God is the devil’s prime objective.....it’s how he led the first humans astray in the garden of Eden.
Some get so confused that they jump from one erroneous religion to another, never actually finding what they were looking for....for others, it makes them want to ditch religion altogether. Either way, the devil has accomplished his aims.

So, for me, unanswered questions were my main frustration.....I had so many questions that were never answered to my satisfaction......yet, my search for God continued even after excursions into other faith models....none of them filled the hole in my heart, until one day God knocked on my door and introduced himself.....that was 50 years ago and I have never looked back. There is not a single question that I asked, that was not answered in the Bible. In the big ‘jigsaw puzzle’, I finally knew where all the pieces fit.

I stay out of the book of Revelation because I believe most if not all of it deals with Israel and has very little if anything to do with the body of Christ.

Revelation has nothing to do with natural Israel. Paul revealed that God chose a new nation to serve his interests here on earth (Acts 15:14) until the return of his Christ to finally judge this world. He called this new nation “The Israel of God”, (Galatians 6:16) which was the combining of both Jewish and Gentile Christians. Literal Israel had never fulfilled their obligations to their God and he was fully justified in casting them off as the serial covenant breakers that they had always proven themselves to be......the final straw was the murder of their own Messiah. (Matthew 23:37-39) As a nation, in the centuries following his death, they have never acknowledged Jesus as the one who “came in the name of the Lord.”
Speaking with Jews today, there is on indication that they ever will, though individuals can and have come to Christ.

Now let's talk about something important... where can I get these little cartoons you have jumping on the screen saying ask me?

In the task bar at the top of the quote box where you write your replies there is a smiley face...click on that and you will see some of the simple ones come up at the bottom of the quote box, but if you click on “Angie’s Smilies” there are way more....and too cute for words.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have a question. What does the Trinity belief do to the Christian? Someone who writes well on these forums told me he heard Trinity people do not have any fruit of the spirit.

People are people....all flawed humans. Some people do by nature the things God requires of his worshippers...they are kind and helpful and often great humanitarians....but is this what God requires of his servants? Did God say he was going to save "good" people?

When you look out there in the world, you can find extremely conscientious humanitarians who devote much time and resources to bettering the situation of the disadvantaged in all kinds of situations....but many of them are atheists. Does God overlook their godless viewpoint and just concentrate on their good deeds?

What did God's law tell us about that?
When Jesus was preaching, the Pharisees and Sadducees were listening and plotting ways to silence him....
Matthew 22:34-39...
"After the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they came together in one group. 35 And one of them, versed in the Law, tested him by asking: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this: ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

So the two greatest commandments in the Law were known to those to whom Jesus preached......but the first one was paramount.....you cannot exercise the second without fulfilling the first. So good humanitarians fail the test if they do not love God first and foremost in their lives.

These two commandments must be fulfilled simultaneously.

I personally have wondered if many of them are even born again. For example, can you receive the spirit of God if you go to Romans 10:9 and confess with your mouth the Lord God and believe in your heart that God raised God from the dead?

What does it mean to be "born again"....its a strange 'process' that is not clearly defined in scripture, giving people different expectations as to what it means, and where it will take them.
I would have a completely different view of that from my own study of the Bible. I believe that only the elect are "born again", and it is God who chooses them for a specific role in a different realm, that their new birth facilitates. (Revelation 20:6) Not all Christians are of the elect and therefore not all need to be "born again".

What does it mean to "believe" the things that Jesus taught?
James wrote..."You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder." (James 2:19)
So what does it mean to "believe" in that case? It has to be more than a tacit acknowledgement.....or a silent commitment in the heart....it involves practicing your Christianity in everyday life.....having it influence all your decisions. But because no one is perfect, and we are all influenced by the defects of sin, it is a constant battle to keep Christ's teachings first and foremost in our thoughts and conduct, but as long as we try our best and recognize and apologise for our shortcomings, Jesus' sacrifice guarantees our forgiveness. That is something to be grateful for every day....

 

[Matthias]

@Aunty Jane, the closest anyone can come to explaining the Trinity was shown to me over 40 years ago in Bible school. It's very simple and laid out in construction terms.

God the Father is the owner of all things.

God the Son is the architect who created the plans for all that exists.

God the Holy Spirit is the contractor who brought it all into existence.

Together they are the one God who created all things.

Now if you can further explain this, have at it!

So all three aren’t the owner. Only one of the three, the Father is.

So all three aren’t the architect. Only one of the three, the Son is.

So all three aren’t the contractor who brought it all into existence. Only one of the three, the Holy Spirit is.

So all three - the owner, the architect, the contractor - are the one God who created all things.

The owner did nothing but own it.

The architect did nothing but design it.

The contractor did nothing but build it.

Some of your co-religionists believe Jesus built it. I’ve not heard them say that he didn’t own it.

The Apostles’ Creed says the Father is the creator of heaven and earth. The Creed doesn’t say anything about Jesus designing it and the Holy Spirit building it.

In scripture, God says he owns everything. I think you got it right when you identified the Father as the owner. That much we have in common.

 

[Peterlag]

What the Trinity belief does to the Christian is have him or her asserting and affirming that the Trinity is the one true God.

The Messiah himself makes no such assertion and affirmation. Jesus of Nazareth asserts that his God and the God of his followers, the Father, is the one true God.

That’s a difference that should be noted and pointed out.

I think it’s unwise and totally uncalled for anyone to say that “Trinity people do not have any fruit of the spirit.”

I would even go so far as to say that such an assertion is bearing false witness against “Trinitarian people”.

I did not say anything in this question. I said what was told to me and then I'm asking a question which it seems you are either unwilling or unable to answer.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Aunty Jane, the closest anyone can come to explaining the Trinity was shown to me over 40 years ago in Bible school. It's very simple and laid out in construction terms.

God the Father is the owner of all things.

We at least agree on that point....as Creator he was the one who used his enormous and boundless energy to create all that exists.....but he was not alone. (Proverbs 8:27-31)

God the Son is the architect who created the plans for all that exists.

God the Holy Spirit is the contractor who brought it all into existence.

Wait a sec.....:smlhmm:....if you have "God the Father" and "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit"...that is three gods. That is clearly in breach of the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
No one can be in the place of the Father YHWH.

I can find "God the Father" in my Bible....but for the life of me, in 50 years of Bible study, I have never seen "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" ever written in any verse of scripture. I have see people try to imply it, and to try and suggest that it fits into some ambiguous verses, but never once have I seen them written....or plainly stated.

Together they are the one God who created all things.

Sounds as if you view God as some sort of a corporation.....how does that fit with the God of Israel who plainly told his people...
Deuteronomy 6:4 (Jewish Tanakh)
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:"
"The Lord" their God is clearly "יְהֹוָ֥ה".....Yahweh.
Why did Yahweh need to stress the fact that he was "ONE"? Because the pagan nations worshipped multiple gods....some in triads, like Egypt.

False religion had triads of gods.....but Israel never did.

Now if you can further explain this, have at it!

I can't see that there is anything to explain....the Jews didn't believe in a trinity...therefore the first Christians, who were all Jewish, never believed in a trinity, and Jesus who lived and died as a Jew, never mentioned it....

 

[Charlie24]

We at least agree on that point....as Creator he was the one who used his enormous and boundless energy to create all that exists.....but he was not alone. (Proverbs 8:27-31)


Wait a sec.....:smlhmm:....if you have "God the Father" and "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit"...that is three gods. That is clearly in breach of the First Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
No one can be in the place of the Father YHWH.

I can find "God the Father" in my Bible....but for the life of me, in 50 years of Bible study, I have never seen "God the Son" or "God the Holy Spirit" ever written in any verse of scripture. I have see people try to imply it, and to try and suggest that it fits into some ambiguous verses, but never once have I seen them written....or plainly stated.


Sounds as if you view God as some sort of a corporation.....how does that fit with the God of Israel who plainly told his people...
Deuteronomy 6:4 (Jewish Tanakh)
"Hear, O Israel: The Lord is our God; the Lord is one. דשְׁמַ֖ע יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ יְהֹוָ֥ה | אֶחָֽד:"
"The Lord" their God is clearly "יְהֹוָ֥ה".....Yahweh.
Why did Yahweh need to stress the fact that he was "ONE"? Because the pagan nations worshipped multiple gods....some in triads, like Egypt.

False religion had triads of gods.....but Israel never did.

I can't see that there is anything to explain....the Jews didn't believe in a trinity...therefore the first Christians, who were all Jewish, never believed in a trinity, and Jesus who lived and died as a Jew, never mentioned it....

John most certainly seen a Trinity when he wrote, "there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, these three are One."

Contrary to popular belief, no one can explain this three in One. We can only guess!

 

[Matthias]

@Aunty Jane, the closest anyone can come to explaining the Trinity was shown to me over 40 years ago in Bible school. It's very simple and laid out in construction terms.

God the Father is the owner of all things.

God the Son is the architect who created the plans for all that exists.

God the Holy Spirit is the contractor who brought it all into existence.

Together they are the one God who created all things.

Now if you can further explain this, have at it!

I was taught in school not to use analogies for the Trinity.

A trinitarian shared an article with me that I have gone on to share with other trinitarians. The article, written by a trinitarian, is titled “The Trinity is Like 3-in-1 Shampoo” … And Other Stupid Statements.

"The Trinity is Like 3-in-1 Shampoo". . . And Other Stupid Statements

I’ve also shared Dr. Patton’s article with non-trinitarians. They need to be equipped to understand what the trinitarian who uses analogies is really offering them with their teaching.

 

[Charlie24]

I was taught in school not to use analogies for the Trinity.

A trinitarian shared an article with me that I have gone on to share with other trinitarians. The article, written by a trinitarian, is titled “The Trinity is Like 3-in-1 Shampoo” … And Other Stupid Statements.

"The Trinity is Like 3-in-1 Shampoo". . . And Other Stupid Statements

I’ve also shared Dr. Patton’s article with non-trinitarians. They need to be equipped to understand what the trinitarian who uses analogies is really offering them with their teaching.

An analogy is a comparison used to clarify, there is nothing wrong with that type of expression.

Some see things through a different lens, a different idea of how to compare and clarify.

It does not lesson the identity of the object being compared when an analogy is used, if used in proper form and respect to the object.

Some analogies are used in bad taste, I agree, but in general it is just an attempt to clarify.

 

[Matthias]

An analogy is a comparison used to clarify, there is nothing wrong with that type of expression.

Some see things through a different lens, a different idea of how to compare and clarify.

It does not lesson the identity of the object being compared when an analogy is used, if used in proper form and respect to the object.

Some analogies are used in bad taste, I agree, but in general it is just an attempt to clarify.

Do whatever you think best.

As Dr. Patton pointed out, attempts to “clarify” the Trinity using illustrations / analogies always produces heresy.

We live in a day and age when heresy no longer matters as much as it once did in the Church.

 

[Matthias]

John most certainly seen a Trinity when he wrote, "there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, these three are One."

The spurious Johannine Comma, with your interpretation.

Contrary to popular belief, no one can explain this three in One. We can only guess!

Guessing is speculating. Speculating about God leads to trouble.

 

[Charlie24]

Do whatever you think best.

As Dr. Patton pointed out, attempts to “clarify” the Trinity using illustrations / analogies always produces heresy.

We live in a day and age when heresy no longer matters as much as it once did in the Church.

I don't know Dr. Patton, have no idea who he is, but I can tell you he can't explain the Trinity.

But I would expect that he has attempted to do so, and in his own way.

Has Dr. Patton created some sort of heresy in his attempt to explain?

 

[Matthias]

I don't know Dr. Patton, have no idea who he is, but I can tell you he can't explain the Trinity.

But I would expect that he has attempted to do so, and in his own way.

Has Dr. Patton created some sort of heresy in his attempt to explain?

Have you read the article?