Will there be or is there a need for a future Messianic age?

[Spiritual Israelite]

But Randy, Jesus has now already provided the way to restore the Jewish people, and has been restoring them, and continues to restore them.

There is no postponement for their restoration, they only need to follow Peter’s instruction to them that he gave all the house of Israel, and their children, and all who would come after them after Pentecost.

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.” Acts 2:36

Exactly. The idea that salvation has been postponed for the Jewish people is simply not taught anywhere in scripture. What more does God need to do to provide the opportunity for their salvation than to send His Son to die as a sacrifice for their sins, which He did long ago? And a good number of them have been saved the past almost 2,000 years. There were 3,000 of them saved on the day of Pentecost alone. But, we have some here who seem to act as if they were all cut off long ago and none have been saved since then. But, some day in the future all of them will be saved? God has not withheld salvation from anyone the past almost 2,000 years, but that seems to be what some people think.

 

[Marty fox]

WPM has just made a wonderful Christian statement towards unity and friendship between those of different opinions, and I have nothing but respect for him for doing that. And I don't wish to risk being provocative in a time of friendship. I know already that we are friends, despite our differences on the Millennium. But here we go....

I think your explanation for Jewish rejection of Jesus is spot on, and well said. Perhaps we are in such agreement because I have similar views to your Partial Preterism. We both feel that the Romans played a central role in this conversation. The Jews thought they would obtain deliverance from Rome, the "4th Kingdom" of Dan 7. But Jesus failed to bring that deliverance, instead choosing to suffer the sins of Israel at the worst time in their history.

Jesus in fact said the Romans would bring this destruction "in this generation," as we read in his Olivet Discourse. Then Jesus indicated that great tribulation would erupt for the Jewish people in the form of exile, threatening their very extinction as a people.

This is where we may differ. You may think that the great tribulation of the Jewish People was in fact their destruction, or at the very least, a transition to the Church age, leaving Jewish tradition behind.

I actually believe that Jewish tradition about Messiah was correct, that he would bring a final deliverance and a final regathering for the Jewish People. It's just that, as you say, he had to die first, punish Israel, and then regather them after the whole world has had the same chance that the Jews had.

To answer your question, then, I think the purpose of a future Kingdom is to restore the Jewish People, and to bring peace for all the Christian nations on earth. I do believe, however, that the faithful saints of the past and present ages will be regathered simultaneous to the gathering of the Jews, and will be given to rule over the world.

Don't ask me how this all works out, with Jesus simultaneously gathering the Jews and gathering the saints for glory! I don't know, and don't have it all figured out. This is just my current opinion.

Thanks for your tolerance, brother. You are an exemplary Christian in my book, and differences of opinions and differing speculations don't matter half as much as living for Christ. Thank you! I welcome your comments and arguments, Semi-Preterist or Amillennial.

Thanks Randy and you know that the feeling is mutual as we always debate with love and respect.

The thing is that Jesus did bring deliverance but not from foreign control or occupation because Jesus had a better deliverance one that would last beyond human life.

Jesus often mentioned that he came to deliver the lost sheep of Israel and bring them and His other sheep from a different fold together and make them one flock and He did. That’s it it’s final nothing more needs to be accomplished by Him to save All of His people.

Do you notice that Jesus in the gospels never mentions that He was coming back to rule on the earth? That’s because He said “today was the day of salvation.”

 

[Marty fox]

Exactly. The idea that salvation has been postponed for the Jewish people is simply not taught anywhere in scripture. What more does God need to do to provide the opportunity for their salvation than to send His Son to die as a sacrifice for their sins, which He did long ago? And a good number of them have been saved the past almost 2,000 years. There were 3,000 of them saved on the day of Pentecost alone. But, we have some here who seem to act as if they were all cut off long ago and none have been saved since then. But, some day in the future all of them will be saved? God has not withheld salvation from anyone the past almost 2,000 years, but that seems to be what some people think.

Amen and how many Christian Jews are there today? They saw the light with the same chance as any Jew and without any special treatment.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Thanks Randy and you know that the feeling is mutual as we always debate with love and respect.

The thing is that Jesus did bring deliverance but not from foreign control or occupation because Jesus had a better deliverance one that would last beyond human life.

Jesus often mentioned that he came to deliver the lost sheep of Israel and bring them and His other sheep from a different fold together and make them one flock and He did. That’s it it’s final nothing more needs to be accomplished by Him to save All of His people.

Do you notice that Jesus in the gospels never mentions that He was correct back to rule on the earth? That’s because He said “today was the day of salvation.”

You mean, *coming* back to rule on earth?

 

[Marty fox]

You mean, *coming* back to rule on earth?

Yes edited thanks

 

[Randy Kluth]

But Randy, Jesus has now already provided the way to restore the Jewish people, and has been restoring them, and continues to restore them.

There is no postponement for their restoration, they only need to follow Peter’s instruction to them that he gave all the house of Israel, and their children, and all who would come after them after Pentecost.

“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and they said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.” Acts 2:36

Of course I agree with you, and speculation about the future takes 2nd place to what is going on with respect to salvation. Yes, today is the day of salvation. We agree on that much.

But with respect to speculation about the future, I firmly believe that God promised Abraham a good end for the story of Israel. That story hasn't been good over the last couple of thousand years. I suppose it's never been that good.

And that's because like any theocracy, the religious people are a mixed breed. They're bound to fall apart, by force of the law of thermodynamics. They will grow cold due to all the cold people mixed in among them.

This is also true of Christian countries, which I also call theocracies. They are a mixed crowd, and ultimately the lukewarm among them, the rebels and the traitors cause them to lose their power, their witness, and their fire.

But if the story is to have a happy ending, then you'll have to allow me to speculate about the future. God did put hope into His word. And I do think He has a good end to the story, the failures of all of these believing peoples notwithstanding.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Yes edited thanks

Didn't he say he was coming back to rule, via his angel, in Rev 2?

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

But yes, Jesus is already ruler in heaven. It is his "reign" on earth that we are awaiting, whether that is eternity or a thousand years and then eternity.

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

 

[Marty fox]

Didn't he say he was coming back to rule, via his angel, in Rev 2?

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.

Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

But yes, Jesus is already ruler in heaven. It is his "reign" on earth that we are awaiting, whether that is eternity or a thousand years and then eternity.

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

But look at what actually happens at the 7th trumpet.

The Seventh Trumpet
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This is at the end of our world after the thousand years at the judgement day when the dead are judged and the saints rewarded. This is the same as the GWTJ in revelation 20.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But look at what actually happens at the 7th trumpet.

The Seventh Trumpet
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This is at the end of our world at the judgement day when the dead are judged and the saints rewarded. This is the same as the GWTJ in revelation 20.

Exactly. It very clearly says that when the seventh trumpet sounds that will signal that "the time has come for judging the dead". When does the judging of the dead occur? According to Revelation 20, the judging of the dead will happen after the thousand years. That places the timing of the sounding of the seventh trumpet after the thousand years.

After the thousand years (and Satan's little season), the dead are judged:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Amen and how many Christian Jews are there today? They saw the light with the same chance as any Jew and without any special treatment.

Agree. It simply makes no sense to think that God has turned His back on the Jews for almost 2,000 years now but then will suddenly reach out to them for a short time in the future before the end. No, He has been reaching out to all of them for the past 2,000 years. He wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 John 2:1-2, John 3:16, 1 Tim 2:3-6), including all Jews. And that has been true for the past almost 2,000 years. This idea of the postponement of salvation for the Jews is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Marty fox]

Agree. It simply makes no sense to think that God has turned His back on the Jews for almost 2,000 years now but then will suddenly reach out to them for a short time in the future before the end. No, He has been reaching out to all of them for the past 2,000 years. He wants all people to repent (Acts 17:30, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 John 2:1-2, John 3:16, 1 Tim 2:3-6), including all Jews. And that has been true for the past almost 2,000 years. This idea of the postponement of salvation for the Jews is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

As Paul says

2 Corinthians 2:6
For he says, “In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.” I tell you, now is the time of God’s favor, now is the day of salvation.

Yes today is the day of salvation and has been for the last 2000 years not a time in the future.

 

[Marty fox]

Exactly. It very clearly says that when the seventh trumpet sounds that will signal that "the time has come for judging the dead". When does the judging of the dead occur? According to Revelation 20, the judging of the dead will happen after the thousand years. That places the timing of the sounding of the seventh trumpet after the thousand years.

After the thousand years (and Satan's little season), the dead are judged:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Yes clearly revelation chapter 20 ties the 7th trumpet from chapter 11 to after the thousand years. This is quite profound since revelation chapter 20 is so important to futurist.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes clearly revelation chapter 20 ties the 7th trumpet from chapter 11 to after the thousand years. This is quite profound since revelation chapter 20 is so important to futurist.

Agree. Have you ever seen a premil try to explain how they can reconcile the dead being judged at the seventh trumpet with their view? It's cringeworthy.

 

[Marty fox]

Agree. Have you ever seen a premil try to explain how they can reconcile the dead being judged at the seventh trumpet with their view? It's cringeworthy.

No I haven’t except that they says that it’s not the same timing

 

[Randy Kluth]

But look at what actually happens at the 7th trumpet.

The Seventh Trumpet
15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

16 And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying:

“We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
the One who is and who was,
because you have taken your great power
and have begun to reign.
18 The nations were angry,
and your wrath has come.
The time has come for judging the dead,
and for rewarding your servants the prophets
and your people who revere your name,
both great and small—
and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

This is at the end of our world after the thousand years at the judgement day when the dead are judged and the saints rewarded. This is the same as the GWTJ in revelation 20.

Yes, that's true and that's what the texts say. The only question I have is: what is "judging the dead?" Is it the defeat of Antichrist or the GWTJ?

 

[Marty fox]

Yes, that's true and that's what the texts say. The only question I have is: what is "judging the dead?" Is it the defeat of Antichrist or the GWTJ?

It also says the rewarding of the saints thus this is the same timing as the GWTJ in revelation chapter 20.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly. The idea that salvation has been postponed for the Jewish people is simply not taught anywhere in scripture. What more does God need to do to provide the opportunity for their salvation than to send His Son to die as a sacrifice for their sins, which He did long ago? And a good number of them have been saved the past almost 2,000 years. There were 3,000 of them saved on the day of Pentecost alone. But, we have some here who seem to act as if they were all cut off long ago and none have been saved since then. But, some day in the future all of them will be saved? God has not withheld salvation from anyone the past almost 2,000 years, but that seems to be what some people think.

Since we are talking about eschatology instead of soteriology, I guess we are safe to say there is still a future millennial kingdom on earth.

Do you notice that Jesus in the gospels never mentions that He was coming back to rule on the earth? That’s because He said “today was the day of salvation.”

Again, eschatology, not soteriology.

 

[Timtofly]

It also says the rewarding of the saints thus this is the same timing as the GWTJ in revelation chapter 20.

What verse states rewards handed out to the living at the GWT?

 

[Marty fox]

What verse states rewards handed out to the living at the GWT?

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

If you read the verses above you will read that books were opened and then the book of Life was also opened. The dead both great and small were each judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Only the ones not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire.

Thus the ones whos names were found in the book of life were rewarded as shown in the very next verses in chapter 21..

 

[Timtofly]

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

If you read the verses above you will read that books were opened and then the book of Life was also opened. The dead both great and small were each judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. Only the ones not found in the book of life were cast into the lake of fire.

Thus the ones whos names were found in the book of life were rewarded as shown in the very next verses in chapter 21..

You read that into the text. All I read is that they are rewarded with the LOF.

All human works of righteousness are only filthy rags. I guess they can wear rags as rewards in the LOF.

What about the judgment and reward here:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

Is that not souls standing before thrones, judged, and rewarded by ruling with Christ? Sounds better than being cast into the LOF.

Are the dead reigning with Christ in the LOF?