What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Matthias]

It's amazing how many hoops you will jump through to deny what the Bible clearly says.

I’m sure that persuaded him.

Just as sure as I am that you would be persuaded if someone, anyone, said to you what you said to him.

I’ll be the Guinea pig.

*

It’s amazing how many hoops you will jump through to deny what the Bible clearly says, RLT63.

Well, how did I do? Are you persuaded?

*

Why do we say such things to one another? What do we hope to accomplish, if / when we do?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Are you consistent with this standard? An honest question...

“If Christ never once said....”

Did Jesus ever say that he was the archangel Michael?

No, he didn't which is why it remains a belief but not a doctrine. We do know for sure that Jesus is not Almighty God and that certain scriptures indicate that Jesus is "the great Prince who stands on behalf of Jehovah's people" spoken about by Daniel.....only two personages are said to command the angelic forces.....Michael and Jesus.

It is also said that Jesus has many names, depending upon which role he is fulfilling. The name "Jesus" was not given to him until his earthly birth.
We believe in his pre-existence, and that moves us to believe that Michael is his name in heaven.

But regardless of whether Jesus is Michael or not, he is still not Yahweh/Jehovah.

 

[Wrangler]

I would enjoy if you could help me with a question I have. Others have called me a JW
on here and you also are using the term. Can you tell me what a JW is?

JW stands for Jehovah Witness.

My son-in-law and his family are/were. He says it is a cult. He and half his family have been ostracized. They only see the other half when the other half disregards the "shunning" they are supposed to do to the oscracized. He has 4 grandchildren of his parents which puts them in a tight spot.

I cannot tell you all the details of why he says it is a cult but I can tell you the pain he and his family have over how they were treated by the JW congregation is very real. My daughter essentially has said it has left him a shell of a man, unsure of his convictions and eager to avoid conflict stemming from those convictions.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes God must be truly evil to let the majority of people who believe in him be deceived and only the JWs have it right.

If there are only "wheat and weeds"..."sheep and goats"..."one road to life and the other to death".....there has to be those "few" who are on the right road...and the "many" who are on the wrong one. (Matthew 7:13-14) Jesus will let us know soon enough whether we are traveling the right road.

Fulfilling the criteria that is outlined in the Bible for identifying true Christians....I don't see any who come close to them....which is why I came out of Christendom and became a worshipper of Jehovah as one of his Witnesses. Ours is a united global brotherhood who all agree on one truth, though we speak many languages. There is no dissension in our ranks, which makes us rather unique in this world, IMO.

 

[Wrangler]

You got me thinking about this when you said someone told you those who believe in the trinity do not have the fruit of the spirit. For that to be true it would mean they don't have the spirit of God. SO I asked this to another guy on here...
"Can the person who totally wiped out the Christ be saved? Can you have the spirit of God if you do not know who Jesus Christ is?"

Part of what he wrote back was this...

"It's not just who is the right Jesus Christ. It's even more importantly who is the right Father. If he is not God alone and only a member of a god, then no, that person CANNOT know who and why they believe in his Son! As far as I'm concerned they cannot possess the Father's Spirit within them because they do not even know who he is. How can the Son know them upon resurrection in the future if they do not know or never knew his Father?!! They cannot of course."

Yea, notice not a shred of Scriptural reference?

The lesson of Original Sin is that knowledge is secondary. Faith in God through Jesus is the pathway to salvation. John 3:16.

I've said many time there is no doctrinal purity (knowledge) test in Scripture. This is bad news for the 3-is-1 indoctrinators.

 

[Matthias]

@RLT63 do you think that I think you or anyone else jumps through hoops, however many, to deny what the Bible clearly says?

 

[Charlie24]

All analogies of the Trinity give a wrong view of the Trinity.

The Trinity isn’t revealed in scripture.

The truth is Jesus is the answer. His God isn’t the Trinity.

The Trinity is most definitely revealed in Scripture.

The true relationship of the Trinity is not what's revealed in Scripture.

I don't think man could understand the depth and structure of that relationship.

The reason we were given a portion of it.

 

[Matthias]

The Trinity is most definitely revealed in Scripture.

The true relationship of the Trinity is not what's revealed in Scripture.

I don't think man could understand the depth and structure of that relationship.

The reason we were given a portion of it.

The Trinity most definitely is not revealed in scripture. There is no occurrence of “God” which means “the Trinity”.

What is revealed in scripture is how God is reconciling man to himself through a man.

In the NT, Jesus of Nazareth is revealed as that promised man.

 

[Matthias]

Where is the Trinity revealed? In the writings of the early Church Fathers. It comes to us from the Church.

 

[Charlie24]

Where is the Trinity revealed? In the early Church Fathers.

With all the threads on this subject, all the verses that have been quoted, you ask me, "where is the Trinity revealed?"

The Trinity most definitely is not revealed in scripture. There is no occurrence of “God” which means “the Trinity”.

What is revealed in scripture is how God is reconciling man to himself through a man.

In the NT, Jesus of Nazareth is revealed as that promised man.

75% of Christians in the world have a strong belief in the Trinity.

I'm just one of the millions. If you're not, that's ok with me.

 

[Aunty Jane]

My son-in-law and his family are/were. He says it is a cult. He and half his family have been ostracized. They only see the other half when the other half disregards the "shunning" they are supposed to do to the oscracized. He has 4 grandchildren of his parents which puts them in a tight spot.

I cannot tell you all the details of why he says it is a cult but I can tell you the pain he and his family have over how they were treated by the JW congregation is very real. My daughter essentially has said it has left him a shell of a man, unsure of his convictions and eager to avoid conflict stemming from those convictions.

There are always two sides to every story Wrangler....the shunning is scriptural, (1 Corinthians 5:9-13) and it is only applied when serious wrongdoing is confirmed and the person is completely unrepentant. (1 Timothy 5:20) Their attitude and conduct make them unfit company. "A little leaven ferments the whole lump"....which is why they are disfellowshipped, (2 John 9-10) to protect the rest of the congregation.

If we make a vow to God, he expects us to keep it. We know the rules before we apply for baptism, so to us, it is a more serious commitment than a marriage. Its not something where you just decide to change your mind and walk away. It is seen as a defection.

You cannot join Jehovah's Witnesses....you have to choose to become one.....this is after a thorough study of the Bible, which is not undertaken superficially. If you don't do the wrong thing, you don't have to endure the discipline. How can you complain about the discipline if you signed up knowing full well that if you break the rules, it will be administered? (Hebrews 12:11)
A vow to God is not to be taken lightly.....so we don't. But the door is never closed.....a repentant one will be welcomed back after appropriate and loving counsel is given. Some of my own family members have been disfellowshipped and have come back to the fold, humbled and grateful for the discipline....others have had their pride injured and just get angry. It shows us who we really are at heart.

 

[Matthias]

With all the threads on this subject, all the verses that have been quoted, you ask me, "where is the Trinity revealed?"

No.

75% of Christians in the world have a strong belief in the Trinity.

That has no bearing on where the Trinity is revealed.

I'm just one of the millions. If you're not, that's ok with me.

You’ve been clear and consistent about that.

 

[RLT63]

@RLT63 do you think that I think you or anyone else jumps through hoops, however many, to deny what the Bible clearly says?

I'm sure you must. You haven't said so in so many words but others have.

 

[Mr E]

No, he didn't which is why it remains a belief but not a doctrine. We do know for sure that Jesus is not Almighty God and that certain scriptures indicate that Jesus is "the great Prince who stands on behalf of Jehovah's people" spoken about by Daniel.....only two personages are said to command the angelic forces.....Michael and Jesus.

It is also said that Jesus has many names, depending upon which role he is fulfilling. The name "Jesus" was not given to him until his earthly birth.
We believe in his pre-existence, and that moves us to believe that Michael is his name in heaven.

But regardless of whether Jesus is Michael or not, he is still not Yahweh/Jehovah.

Bravo! You apply a much softer approach and standard for your only 'beliefs' which I think is proper. I applaud you for recognizing them for what they are. They are 'things' you 'believe.' This is a much better way of referring to such ideas, rather than drawing "conclusions" where you have become convinced that another "belief" by your own determination (and using the same standard) is "a lie" and not "the truth."

I have read all sides of the story and the only conclusion I can come to in the big picture is that if Christ never once said he was God incarnate....and the apostles never once said that their God was anyone other than the Father, (1 Corinthians 8:5-6) so an apostle church is not going to introduce ideas long after Christ’s death, to convince me that this lie is the truth.....

The fact is, that you don't "know" the truth. You only know what you believe.

 

[farouk]

With all the threads on this subject, all the verses that have been quoted, you ask me, "where is the Trinity revealed?"


75% of Christians in the world have a strong belief in the Trinity.

I'm just one of the millions. If you're not, that's ok with me.

God in Three Persons is strongly in Scripture...

 

[RLT63]

I’m sure that persuaded him.

Just as sure as I am that you would be persuaded if someone, anyone, said to you what you said to him.

I’ll be the Guinea pig.

*

It’s amazing how many hoops you will jump through to deny what the Bible clearly says, RLT63.

Well, how did I do? Are you persuaded?

*

Why do we say such things to one another? What do we hope to accomplish, if / when we do?

You are correct

I’m sure that persuaded him.

Just as sure as I am that you would be persuaded if someone, anyone, said to you what you said to him.

I’ll be the Guinea pig.

*

It’s amazing how many hoops you will jump through to deny what the Bible clearly says, RLT63.

Well, how did I do? Are you persuaded?

*

Why do we say such things to one another? What do we hope to accomplish, if / when we do?

You are correct. I tried to find his post but it must be in another thread where he said people who believe in the Trinity cannot have the fruit of the Spirit then went on to explain why they are lost. I guess I was responding to this. I can't find it now it may have been removed by staff.

 

[RLT63]

With all the threads on this subject, all the verses that have been quoted, you ask me, "where is the Trinity revealed?"


75% of Christians in the world have a strong belief in the Trinity.

I'm just one of the millions. If you're not, that's ok with me.

List of Pro-Trinity/Deity of Christ Bible Passages - Berean Patriot

 

[Matthias]

I'm sure you must. You haven't said so in so many words but others have.

Thanks. I appreciate the feedback. Since you think that about me, that gives me reason to believe that at least some others do to. Your feedback offers me an opportunity to set the record straight:

I don’t think that about you. I don’t think that about anyone.

There was a time in my life - both when I was a trinitarian and after I ceased to be a trinitarian - when I did.

Have you read Jesus and the Constraints of History, written by A.E. Harvey?

 

[Charlie24]

List of Pro-Trinity/Deity of Christ Bible Passages - Berean Patriot

It's plainly written but there are those who will not believe it, nothing we can do.

The Trinity has been well defended on these boards, there is One who is proud of that.

 

[Matthias]

You are correct

You are correct. I tried to find his post but it must be in another thread where he said people who believe in the Trinity cannot have the fruit of the Spirit then went on to explain why they are lost. I guess I was responding to this. I can't find it now it may have been removed by staff.

Everyone is persuaded by the statement.

The question is, what are we persuaded of by the statement?

Are we persuaded that the person who addressed it to us is correct?

We may be persuaded to believe many things in response to the statement but we aren’t persuaded that the person who said it to us is correct. It will cause us to dig in our heels and harden our heart.

It’s a put down - and a dialogue killer, if we allow it to be.

Jesus and the savages. (It’s not the name of a band, at least as far as I know.)