What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

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Matthias

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You do realize when you read the Old Testament the way the Israelites read it (if you are going to use that standard) they don't believe Jesus is the Messiah, they are still waiting on him to come and they never thought he would be crucified. So you are reading Jewish writings through the eyes of a Christian.

That’s right. That comes from reading the scriptures in chronological order.

I’m a Christian, a Jewish monotheist, reading Jewish writings.

You’re a Christian, a trinitary monotheist, reading Jewish writings.

We’re reading the same thing but we’re not understanding what we’re reading the same way.

When I listen to you, I’m hearing echoes of the 4th century Church.

When you listen to me, you aren’t hearing echoes of the 4th century Church.

You don’t think it matters. I do.
 
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Ronald Nolette

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It's important to note the context of the verse and why it's written and placed where it is. Reading the book of Colossians reveals that the Colossians Church had lost its focus on Christ. Some of the believers at Colosse had in practice forsaken their connection with the head who is Jesus Christ, and some were even being led to worship angels (2:18-19). The situation in Colosse called for a strong reminder of Christ's headship over his Church and the Epistle to the Colossians provided just that. There is no definitive reason to believe the believers in Colosse were Trinitarian. A thorough reading of Acts shows that no Apostle or teacher in Acts ever presented the Trinity on their witnessing itineraries. Instead they presented that Jesus was "...a man approved of God..." (Acts 2:22), God's "servant Jesus" (Acts 3:13), God's "Prince" (Acts 5:31), the "one anointed" (Acts 10:38), the "Son of God" (Acts 9:20). Acts has no presentation to new Christians that Jesus was God, nor was there any formal presentation of the Trinity and Colosse was reached with the Word during the Acts period. This is an important background because Trinitarians read Colossians about Christ creating and think it refers to Jesus creating the earth in the beginning.

People are often confused by Colossians 1:16 because it says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created..." When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17). After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38). The Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, which is the "new man" their new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24). Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel"). And in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, which is the Church of God.

We are in a position to more fully understand verse 16 once we understand that Jesus created things for the Church. The word "all" is used in the Bible in a limited sense just the way we also use it today. My wife told me the kids ate all the cookies. She did not mean the kids ate all the cookies in the world, but rather just the cookies that were in the house. 2 Samuel 17:14 says "...all the men of Israel..." agreed on advice when Absalom held a council against his father David. "All" the men of Israel did not agree with Absalom, but all the men who were there with him did. Jeremiah 26:8 says "all the people" seized Jeremiah to put him to death. All the people did not mean all the people on the planet, but rather all the people who were there. Understand? One must determine from the context if "all" is being used in the wide sense of "all in the universe" or in the narrow sense of "all in a specific" context. I believe the narrow sense is being applied in Colossians 1:16 when it says Jesus created "all" things for his Church and not "all" things in the universe.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

All the things "created" in this list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning, but rather the "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, which are the positions that Christ needed to run his Church, which he created for that purpose because these are the things Jesus needed to administer his Church. The Colossians believers had lost their focus on Christ as the head of the Church and Colossians 1:16 elevates Christ to his rightful position as Lord by noting that he was the one who created the powers and authorities in the Church.


sorry I am la so late to this thread. I am going to give a very deep theological Ansewr.

What does Scripture mean when it says "by Him were all things were created?" It means this: "by Him were all things created".
 

RLT63

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That’s right. That comes from reading the scriptures in chronological order.

I’m a Christian, a Jewish monotheist, reading Jewish writings.

You’re a Christian, a trinitary monotheist, reading Jewish writings.

We’re reading the same thing but we’re not understanding what we’re reading the same way.

When I listen to you, I’m hearing echoes of the 4th century Church.

When you listen to me, you aren’t hearing echoes of the 4th century Church.

You don’t think it matters. I do.
I know who Jesus is and who he claimed to be, I'm trusting in him. I don't think he requires you to be a theologian to be saved. If I'm wrong according to others (not sure about you) the worst I have to fear is just going to sleep one day and never waking up.
 

Wrangler

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sorry I am la so late to this thread. I am going to give a very deep theological Ansewr.

What does Scripture mean when it says "by Him were all things were created?" It means this: "by Him were all things created".
Yes, you are late to the party. This was explained in detail. In short, a bad trinitarian translation does not ring true as Jesus is not God, not the creator and the verse to which you refer says in plain English that God created for, through and in connection to Jesus. See Post #16.
 

Wrangler

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If there are only "wheat and weeds"..."sheep and goats"..."one road to life and the other to death".....there has to be those "few" who are on the right road...and the "many" who are on the wrong one. (Matthew 7:13-14) Jesus will let us know soon enough ...[JW] is a united global brotherhood who all agree on one truth ... no dissension in our ranks

Yes, Jesus will let us know. However, in the case of my SIL, it seems the Elders of JW acted on Jesus' behalf.

The poor man now wants N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with religion, let alone JW. And there are many others who've had such experiences. And they tell their stories. Hear me well, it is not other Christians who give JW a bad name as much as it is ex-JW's who never felt the love of Christ or the Holy Spirit of God while part of the JW experience. Something to think about.
 

Matthias

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I know who Jesus is and who he claimed to be, I'm trusting in him. I don't think he requires you to be a theologian to be saved.

A Muslim man told me the very same thing. He doesn’t believe in the same Jesus you believe in, nor does he believe in the same Jesus I believe in. He believes in “another Jesus”.

If you’ve looked into Islam’s teaching about Jesus then you know that we don’t have to look very hard to see that. It jumps at us quickly.

If I'm wrong according to others (not sure about you) the worst I have to fear is just going to sleep one day and never waking up.

No one will “just go to sleep one day and never wake up.” Everyone will be resurrected to stand before the Messiah.

If you’re wrong, the Messiah will be the one who decides what to do about it.
 
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Matthias

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I have. He assured me there is no resurrection.

Your Jewish friend probably told you that Jesus has been dead for 20 centuries. Standard operating procedure in Rabbinical Judaism.

What need is there for resurrection if a person is already immortal?

An immortal person must go somewhere when the body dies.

Heaven, hell or purgatory are your options in that scenario.
 

Wrangler

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You cannot join Jehovah's Witnesses....you have to choose to become one
I'm not sure what kind of word play you got going there.

.....this is after a thorough study of the Bible, which is not undertaken superficially. If you don't do the wrong thing, you don't have to endure the discipline. How can you complain about the discipline if you signed up knowing full well that if you break the rules, it will be administered? (Hebrews 12:11)

See Nullification v Secession. It might explain why there is no dissension among the ranks.

I understand there is an arduous process for one to leave the RCC. What is the process for one to leave JW? I guess my SIL could only find the shunning 'discipline' as you call it to escape.

I may have mentioned this before. His parents play the game of making plans with my daughter (who is not nor ever was JW). If she brings their grandchildren and their son along, that's on her; they did not plan to interact with my daughter's shunned husband. Also, they do not go on the lake on the 4th day in the 7th month to watch fireworks. They go to an annual Elvis Presley concert - that happens to be right next to where the fire works are going off.

How's that not undertaken superficially working?
 

RLT63

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A Muslim man told me the very same thing. He doesn’t believe in the same Jesus you believe in, nor does he believe in the same Jesus I believe in. He believes in “another Jesus”.

If you’ve looked into Islam’s teaching about Jesus then you know that we don’t have to look very hard to see that. It jumps at us quickly.



No one will “just go to sleep one day and never wake up.” Everyone will be resurrected to stand before the Messiah.

If you’re wrong, the Messiah will be the one who decides what to do about it.
According to many of the people on this forum and some other ones if your name is not in The Lamb's Book of Life you are just annihilated. Others say you are punished for a time then you are annihilated. Still others say you are punished, pay for your sins then you are just as well off as the saved folks. The strange thing is they are all reading the same Bible.
 
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Matthias

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I'm sure you must. You haven't said so in so many words but others have.

I’ve told you that I don’t. You will never hear me say those words to you, or to anyone else.

Now I’d like to see where you stand.

“It is amazing how many hoops you will jump through to deny what the Bible clearly says.”

I know you believe this about others. You’ve said so yourself.

Is this something that you believe about me? Is this something that you would or might say to me come some day? I would like to find out, sooner rather than later.
 
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Matthias

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According to many of the people on this forum and some other ones if your name is not in The Lamb's Book of Life you are just annihilated. Others say you are punished for a time then you are annihilated. Still others say you are punished, pay for your sins then you are just as well off as the saved folks. The strange thing is they are all reading the same Bible.

Theology is the devil’s playground.
 
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Behold

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Worse, the teaching that the Trinity is a “mystery” has been used as a club to beat down doubters and dissenters, and those people are often branded as “heretics” and their role in Christianity minimized.

?

John Calvin, who has ruined much of Christianity, doctrinally, as much as the devil could have ever hoped for, once helped a believer be burned at the stake, because this believer did not recognize from scriptures, the "Trinity".

Its a good thing that J.Calvin is not running the show in '2022, or many of you would be up in smoke by now.
 
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Behold

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Theology is the devil’s playground.

Theology is the devil's handbook, if he is in control of what a person believes, regarding the Bible, specifically the New Testament.

"Spotting the Heretic", = who is going to be that said person, is as easy as simply finding out if they receive the Cross or if they are up on it.

If they are up on it, they will argue that Christ does not keep them saved, and they will provided you with their own Cross... which will be their self saving LIST of "do's and don't'", and sometimes its just one thing that has nailed them to the Cross of their own Self Righteousness.
Often tho, it'll be a few different Nails.

If they, on the other hand, have received the Cross then they will give Jesus all the credit due Him alone for saving them and keeping them saved.

Reader, If you can't honestly believe that Jesus keeps you saved, then you are not born again, or you are born again, and you are deceived and will be on a Forum or in a Pulpit, or in a Sunday School Class, or on a YouTube Video, trying to deceive people with your own deception.

See, the spiritual trademark of a dark light, Luke 11:35 = a heretic, is that for the most part they dont use the Bible for any other reason than to try to prove that Jesus does not keep you saved.
When you are that one, you are ANTI-Cross.
This deception will be the center, core, of their Threads, their Posts, and their Theological MIND.
They obsess on..>"how can i lose my Salvation", and they is their MINISTRY, on a Forum, 90% of the time.
 

Matthias

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Theology is the devil's handbook, if he is in control of what a person believes, regarding the Bible, specifically the New Testament.

"Spotting the Heretic", = who is going to be that said person, is as easy as simply finding out if they receive the Cross or if they are up on it.

If they are up on it, they will argue that Christ does not keep them saved, and they will provided you with their own Cross... which will be their self saving LIST of "do's and don't'", and sometimes its just one thing that has nailed them to the Cross of their own Self Righteousness.
Often tho, it'll be a few different Nails.

If they, on the other hand, have received the Cross then they will give Jesus all the credit due Him alone for saving them and keeping them saved.

Reader, If you can't honestly believe that Jesus keeps you saved, then you are not born again, or you are born again, and you are deceived and will be on a Forum or in a Pulpit, or in a Sunday School Class, or on a YouTube Video, trying to deceive people with your own deception.

See, the spiritual trademark of a dark light, Luke 11:35 = a heretic, is that for the most part they dont use the Bible for any other reason than to try to prove that Jesus does not keep you saved.
When you are that on, you are ANTI-Cross.
This deception will be the center, core, of their Threads, their Posts, and their Theological MIND.
They obsess on..>"how can i lose my Salvation", and they is their MINISTRY, on a Forum, 90% of the time.

One of my trinitarian professor’s used to say “Theology is a mine field.” He’s right. It is.

I think my version is a little more eye-catching, but his is dramatic too. The point is made either way.
 

Wrangler

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According to many of the people on this forum and some other ones if your name is not in The Lamb's Book of Life you are just annihilated. Others say you are punished for a time then you are annihilated. Still others say you are punished, pay for your sins then you are just as well off as the saved folks. The strange thing is they are all reading the same Bible.
This is the inevitable result of a lack of explicit Scripture. There is no such diversity regarding what day man was created on.
 

Wrangler

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John Calvin, who has ruined much of Christianity, doctrinally, as much as the devil could have ever hoped for, once helped a believer be burned at the stake, because this believer did not recognize from scriptures, the "Trinity".

Its a good thing that J.Calvin is not running the show in '2022, or many of you would be up in smoke by now.
The question is, would you join Calvin in burning us? If not, why not?
 

Aunty Jane

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I know a woman who got pregnant when she was young and not married. She was basically excommunicated by the JWs.
The sexually immoral will not inherit the kingdom....it was Paul who said that.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10....
9 Or do you not know that unrighteous people will not inherit God’s Kingdom? Do not be misled. Those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who submit to homosexual acts, men who practice homosexuality, 10 thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners will not inherit God’s Kingdom.”

But look what else he said....v11
“And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean; you have been sanctified; you have been declared righteous in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.”

Those who have led an immoral life can be forgiven and come into a clean standing before God. But once a person has been forgiven, they can’t just go back to sinning and take that forgiveness for granted, as Peter said....2 Peter 2:20-22...
Certainly if after escaping from the defilements of the world by an accurate knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they get involved again with these very things and are overcome, their final state has become worse for them than the first. 21 It would have been better for them not to have accurately known the path of righteousness than after knowing it to turn away from the holy commandment they had received. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog has returned to its own vomit, and the sow that was bathed to rolling in the mire.”

We don’t want God to view us that way.

Paul also wrote...
“In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13, 1 Corinthians 15:33)

So removing an unrepentant wrongdoer is scriptural and sends a strong message to the rest of the congregation......”a little leaven ferments the whole lump”.....so removing the leaven is a protection and if repentance is demonstrated, the wrongdoer can be welcomed back into the fold.

Another person was involved and he was not a JW. I think that was their biggest problem with the situation.
We are admonished to “marry only in the Lord” because it is that principle that strengthens a marriage where the two are complete with God...The one who “yoked them together”.
If you recall what happened to Solomon because he ignored God’s command not to marry foreign women who did not serve Jehovah....in his old age they took the heart of the wisest of men, away from his God.

There is no dissension because it is not allowed.
The time for dissension is in the time before a commitment to baptism. It is not like joining a club....you choose life membership with a vow and a commitment to uphold Jehovah’s standards in all things for the rest of your life as a disciple of Christ. When we choose a marriage mate, we are told to choose wisely because this is also a lifetime commitment.

In the scriptures, there are only two ways to end a marriage.....adultery or death. So if a person finds that they have not married wisely, there is no scriptural escape clause. We view baptism the same way. If you have issues, you can simply stop associating and you will be considered “inactive”....not guilty of any sin but not engaging in any Christian activities. This is not a disfellowshiping offence. But if a person then decides to air their differences with others in the congregation with a view to causing division, they will be removed and we will not associate with them. If the wrongdoer tries to justify their behavior, or puts the blame on someone else, it is a sign that they have not acknowledged their sin and are not repentant.
This is exactly what happened in Eden. Human nature is still the same. We can clearly see the sins of others but not so clearly our own.

Too many people are swayed by the bitter talk of those who see their discipline as unfair and unjustified, but the body of elders who have taken that step know both sides of the story and have acted accordingly. The discipline is a time to reflect on what happened and why that action was taken. Self justification doesn’t count, but it is a strong factor in how one responds to that discipline....something that separates the humble “sheep” from the proud “goats”.

Always try to hear both sides and if you can’t, my grandmother used to say....”believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see”.......good advice I think.
 
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