Why I'm Premil

[Marilyn C]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I hear this. I couldn't imagine anybody with a college degree saying this, and yet people on these forums are pretty smart and educated. Still, they make absurd statements like this. A cursory look on the internet or just talking with someone outside of your favored group will yield the fact that Christian nations have existed *throughout NT history.* You surely must be using an exotic definition of "Christian nation" to deny they exist?

But I can't argue with absurd irrationality. I've had plenty of these conversations on these forums. And incredibly, this appears to be a *majority position!* I must be in the wrong place!

If you want to discuss anything, don't start with an absurd statement like this. It promises no real conversation will take place. It would be like me laying down the ground rules that the earth is a flat planet, and that no round earth exists.



So does the "whole world" include "called out ones" or not? If so, then the "whole world" represents the whole pagan world, and not the whole Christian world.

Hi Randy,

I hear you about the statement. But to me it is just as absurd to think there is such a thing. So what about these scriptures -

`The whole world lies under the sway of the evil one. ` (1 John 5: 19)
`they are NOT of the world, just as I am not of the world.` (John 17: 16)
` they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...` (Heb. 11: 13)
`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system).` (1 Cor. 6: 2)
`Adulterers and adulteress! Do you not know that friendship with the world (system) is enmity with God? ` (James 4: 4)

And also the Church of Laodiea...

 

[Marilyn C]

7. Laodicea - Man`s Character and his Purposes. (Rev. 3: 14 – 19)

Christ reveals Himself to this group as the Originator (Beginning) & the one who will Terminate all things, (Amen) plus the one who oversees all in between. It is His purposes that will prevail, not man`s.

`These things says the Amen, ......the Beginning of the creation of God.`
(Rev. 3: 14)

This group believe that by partnering with the world system they can transform & change the world bringing peace, hope & justice, through man`s efforts. This is shown by their name, which reveals their character & motives.

Laodicea - `Laos` - people, & `dike` - justice, meaning – the people`s justice.

This is spiritual adultery, joining with the world & not relying on the Lord.

`....friendship with the world is enmity with God.` (James 4: 4)

Friendship – from the Gk word, `philia` friendship & `philos` friend, associate, partner

This group also look to the world for leadership techniques & business strategies, measuring their success by worldly standards.

`I am rich, have become wealthy, & have need of nothing.`
(Rev. 3: 17)

The Lord however chastises them quite severely saying that He sees them as -

`wretched, miserable, poor, blind & naked -`
(Rev. 3: 17)


This group should have been a `Witness` to the world of the power of God to change people.


They should have been `faithful` to show that it is by His Spirit people are changed, & not by man`s efforts – promotions of organisations, entertainment, or big events etc.



They should have been `true` to God`s word declaring that He will judge the world, instead of saying that He is transforming it for the better.


The Lord `the faithful & True Witness` then addresses their watered down witness or `lukewarmness.` He tells them quite strongly, that unless they repent He will `vomit ` them out of His mouth.(Rev. 3: 16) He then counsels them to know Him as their source -


`buy from Me gold....white garments...& anoint your eyes...`
(Rev. 3: 18)


Gold - Faith in Christ & not in man. (1 Peter 1: 7)

White Garments - Christ`s righteousness not man`s efforts. (Titus 3: 5 & 6)

Anoint your eyes - Insight by the Holy Spirit into Christ`s purposes, & not man`s purposes.
(John 16: 13)

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

I hear you about the statement. But to me it is just as absurd to think there is such a thing. So what about these scriptures -

`The whole world lies under the sway of the evil one. ` (1 John 5: 19)
`they are NOT of the world, just as I am not of the world.` (John 17: 16)
` they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth...` (Heb. 11: 13)
`Do you not know that the saints will judge the world (system).` (1 Cor. 6: 2)
`Adulterers and adulteress! Do you not know that friendship with the world (system) is enmity with God? ` (James 4: 4)

And also the Church of Laodiea...

I appreciate your good spirit in the face of my "aggressive" stance. ;) I can talk with those like you who persist in asking questions, and are not deterred by "emotional statements." I'm the same way.

Yes, the "world" is viewed, biblically, as a place where fallen humans live. Since the Fall of Adam and Eve, the world has been plagued by more satanic manipulation, and in fact Satan's rule over a large percentage of the human race.

His rule consists of managing a world in which people live by their own independent decisions, distinct from working in cooperation with God and His word. We were always created to live in fellowship with God, operating in conjunction with His word, and not against it or apart from it.

So yes, the world is under the sway of the Evil One, who actually governs in some political schemes. But this does not mean God is not in control of things on earth, nor that He has no people on earth who operate by His word. He called Israel for this purpose, to demonstrate that entire nations can live by the word of God. And the Church, with its many nations, has been called to the same purpose.

It becomes apparent that sin tends to win out in any population over time, in the same way that gravity makes them move downward. People ultimately cave to their weaknesses, while at the same time many people like these weaknesses and even deny they are weaknesses.

When God called nations He was under no illusion that they would always continue to live by His word. He frankly expected their ultimate demise, insisting that His Kingdom would finally last on earth only when the Messiah comes in judgment.

My argument was based on the ubiquitous reference to "Christian nations" which is everywhere present in encyclopedias, dictionaries, histories and media sources. But I understand that you're looking specifically for a "biblical definition," right?

 

[Timtofly]

My policy is to interpret as symbolic what is obviously symbolic. The 144,000 follows the pattern set forth in Eze 40-48, in which Israel's Hope is clearly portrayed using OT terminology. That terminology is the same being used in Rev 7-11, in which a remnant of 144,000 Israelites are mentioned, using tribes that are in the current era no longer in existence and in which a temple that no longer exits is measured for worshipers.

On the other hand, the Millennium is not found in Eze 40-48, and does not use outmoded elements. And so, I take it literally, just as Eze 40-48 projects a literal Jewish Hope at the end of the age. Without a period of time in which Israel can be historically fulfilled, I don't think OT prophecy on behalf of Israel makes sense.

The 144,000 is divided equally into 12 groups, suggesting, quite simply, that the promise to the 12 tribes are equally fulfilled in the Jewish People. I think the territorial boundaries are an OT foreshadowing of the non-tribal Jewish People in the Millennium. Since the 12 tribes can no longer be reconstituted into 12 different groups directly descended from the original 12 tribes, we must see this as symbolic of their inheritance through the Jewish People, when there are no longer any divisions in Israel, as prophesied.

Why are you dividing the 144k?

Why choose 12,000 why not only 12, one from each tribe?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why are you dividing the 144k?

Why choose 12,000 why not only 12, one from each tribe?

Are you suggesting that a symbolic image can be viewed in any way, indiscriminately, without any regard for what the symbols themselves mean? If the symbol was just one person per tribe, then that symbol would have a particular meaning. But if the symbol is 12,000 members per tribe, then that symbolism has a completely different meaning.

Again, here are the facts. Once the tribes lost their boundaries, they lost their membership and their identities. They had become invested in their descendants, no longer concerned with tribal divisions. If divisions are still being used symbolically, it is to show that what they were promised in ancient times is now being fulfilled in the nation.

The use of all 12 tribes indicates that God is still remembering the original equation, that the 12 tribes would literally invest descendants in this future united nation. The number 12,000 is significant inasmuch as it is equal to all the other tribes, ie they all share the same inheritance equally as a united nation, but are component parts of a nation.

"Thousands" express participation in a nation, as opposed to an individual. And being much less than a nation, which are thousands and not millions, indicates that these are smallish parts of the nation, ie remnants of each tribe, and not whole tribes.

Just my thoughts. Some of this is explicit in the passage. What is clear to me is that the age of 12 tribal divisions ended with the monarchies.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But that is not just concerning `your people and for your city. ` (Dan. 9: 27)

But, He did come for Daniel's people and city and that's the point.

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So, I say again that only Jesus could fulfill all of the things listed in Daniel 9:24. If the Israelite people themselves could fulfill those things then what do they need Jesus for?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I see what you are saying however Peter is not saying that. He is saying that in the Day of the Lord, (time period) the heavens and earth will melt etc. That fire is reserved until the day of judgement.

What was Peter's point to say that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night if the fiery destruction he described won't occur until 1000+ years after Christ returns?

Why did Peter warn his readers about the coming day of the Lord if it isn't something that can possibly affect them?

Please tell me exactly how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13.

You will need many more scriptures to back up your view of it all happening when the Lord comes.

There are plenty of scriptures which show all unbelievers being destroyed when Christ returns. Jesus Himself taught that.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

What Jesus said here lines up with what Peter said here:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away at His second coming and that no one knows the day or hour that will occur. It will come unexpected like a thief in the night, as Jesus described in Matthew 24:42-44. It is upon His arrival that global destruction occurs, not 1000+ years later as you believe. Jesus said that just as the unbelievers in Noah's day didn't know what was coming and they were all destroyed, "that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". All unbelievers will be caught off guard by the future event where "sudden destruction" (1 Thess 5:2-3) by way of fire (2 Peter 3:7;10-12) comes down on them from which "they will not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

Paul, like Peter, indicated that the destruction that will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord will be sudden and unexpected and will be such that "they will not escape". And, like Peter, Paul warned his readers about that coming day. Why would he do that if the destruction described did not actually occur until 1000+ years after the return of Christ? Surely, you understand that Peter and Paul were not warning their readers about something that would happen 1000+ years after the return of Christ, but rather were warning their readers about something that could happen in their lifetimes if Jesus returned in their lifetimes.

Then there is this:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Paul made it very clear that when Jesus returns He will take vengeance on all unbelievers which are those "who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus". So, what about believers? Paul indicated on the same day that Jesus destroys all unbelievers is the day "He comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed". Paul was writing about the same day he wrote about in 1 Thess 4:13-5:11. A great day for believers and a terrible day for unbelievers.

Revelation 19:15-18 also describes the destruction of all unbelievers on the day Christ returns. So, the type of destruction Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:10-12 lines up with these other scriptures as being something that will occur on the day Christ returns.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me give you an example. I see someone I haven't seen for a long time and I say, "I haven't seen you for a hundred years!" Everybody knows this is figurative. It is a *saying.*

But if I say, "What is it--15 years since I saw you last?" I'm being quite literal. It is apparent to all that there is a difference between these two examples. One is a figurative *saying.* The other can only be taken literal unless something suggests it is not.

I'm not trying to get you to agree with me--just explaining my logic. If you're convinced I'm off my rocket, then by all means take your own road.

I don't personally find your logic to be very...logical. Your example doesn't fit with the examples we were talking about, which was the thousand generations of Deuteronomy 7:9 and the thousand years of Revelation 20. I don't see anything in Deuteronomy 7:9 which plainly tells us that the word "thousand" is being used figuratively there, but we can still discern that. I see that as being the same case with Revelation 20. So, there's nothing more that can be said about this at this point.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I wish I had a dollar for every time I hear this. I couldn't imagine anybody with a college degree saying this, and yet people on these forums are pretty smart and educated. Still, they make absurd statements like this.

What I find to be absurd is your insistence on the existence of Christian nations when scripture itself never teaches such a thing. I don't find it absurd at all to not believe in your "Christian nations" doctrine when it's not taught in scripture anywhere. I guess the rest of us find it important to be able to back up our beliefs with scripture while that isn't important to someone of superior intelligence like yourself.

 

[farouk]

7. Laodicea - Man`s Character and his Purposes. (Rev. 3: 14 – 19)

Christ reveals Himself to this group as the Originator (Beginning) & the one who will Terminate all things, (Amen) plus the one who oversees all in between. It is His purposes that will prevail, not man`s.

`These things says the Amen, ......the Beginning of the creation of God.`
(Rev. 3: 14)

This group believe that by partnering with the world system they can transform & change the world bringing peace, hope & justice, through man`s efforts. This is shown by their name, which reveals their character & motives.

Laodicea - `Laos` - people, & `dike` - justice, meaning – the people`s justice.

This is spiritual adultery, joining with the world & not relying on the Lord.

`....friendship with the world is enmity with God.` (James 4: 4)

Friendship – from the Gk word, `philia` friendship & `philos` friend, associate, partner

This group also look to the world for leadership techniques & business strategies, measuring their success by worldly standards.

`I am rich, have become wealthy, & have need of nothing.`
(Rev. 3: 17)

The Lord however chastises them quite severely saying that He sees them as -

`wretched, miserable, poor, blind & naked -`
(Rev. 3: 17)


This group should have been a `Witness` to the world of the power of God to change people.


They should have been `faithful` to show that it is by His Spirit people are changed, & not by man`s efforts – promotions of organisations, entertainment, or big events etc.



They should have been `true` to God`s word declaring that He will judge the world, instead of saying that He is transforming it for the better.


The Lord `the faithful & True Witness` then addresses their watered down witness or `lukewarmness.` He tells them quite strongly, that unless they repent He will `vomit ` them out of His mouth.(Rev. 3: 16) He then counsels them to know Him as their source -


`buy from Me gold....white garments...& anoint your eyes...`
(Rev. 3: 18)


Gold - Faith in Christ & not in man. (1 Peter 1: 7)

White Garments - Christ`s righteousness not man`s efforts. (Titus 3: 5 & 6)

Anoint your eyes - Insight by the Holy Spirit into Christ`s purposes, & not man`s purposes.
(John 16: 13)

@Marilyn C I guess "Laodicean" means allowing one's heart to grown lukewarm to the things of God, right?

It has been said that the first generation of believers have the Scriptures in their hearts, the second generation may have them in their heads, the third generation may have them on the shelf.....

 

[Marilyn C]

I appreciate your good spirit in the face of my "aggressive" stance. ;) I can talk with those like you who persist in asking questions, and are not deterred by "emotional statements." I'm the same way.

Yes, the "world" is viewed, biblically, as a place where fallen humans live. Since the Fall of Adam and Eve, the world has been plagued by more satanic manipulation, and in fact Satan's rule over a large percentage of the human race.

His rule consists of managing a world in which people live by their own independent decisions, distinct from working in cooperation with God and His word. We were always created to live in fellowship with God, operating in conjunction with His word, and not against it or apart from it.

So yes, the world is under the sway of the Evil One, who actually governs in some political schemes. But this does not mean God is not in control of things on earth, nor that He has no people on earth who operate by His word. He called Israel for this purpose, to demonstrate that entire nations can live by the word of God. And the Church, with its many nations, has been called to the same purpose.

It becomes apparent that sin tends to win out in any population over time, in the same way that gravity makes them move downward. People ultimately cave to their weaknesses, while at the same time many people like these weaknesses and even deny they are weaknesses.

When God called nations He was under no illusion that they would always continue to live by His word. He frankly expected their ultimate demise, insisting that His Kingdom would finally last on earth only when the Messiah comes in judgment.

My argument was based on the ubiquitous reference to "Christian nations" which is everywhere present in encyclopedias, dictionaries, histories and media sources. But I understand that you're looking specifically for a "biblical definition," right?

Hi Randy,

Some more thoughts for you regarding if a nation can be Christian.

1. Political. Lording it over the people.

`Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the gentiles (nations) lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. yet it shall NOT be so among you;...` (Matt. 20: 25 & 26)

2. Military. Armies to defend themselves or go to war.

`For though we walk in the flesh, we do NOT war according to the flesh...` (2 Cor. 10: 3)

3. Economic. Usury, how the world system functions.

`You shall NOT charge interest, (usury) to your brother...` (Deut. 23: 19)

The banks get richer, and the poor get poorer.


So, Randy which nations now or in the past have not operated according to those points.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[farouk]

Hi Randy,

Some more thoughts for you regarding if a nation can be Christian.

1. Political. Lording it over the people.

`Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the gentiles (nations) lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. yet it shall NOT be so among you;...` (Matt. 20: 25 & 26)

2. Military. Armies to defend themselves or go to war.

`For though we walk in the flesh, we do NOT war according to the flesh...` (2 Cor. 10: 3)

3. Economic. Usury, how the world system functions.

`You shall NOT charge interest, (usury) to your brother...` (Deut. 23: 19)

The banks get richer, and the poor get poorer.


So, Randy which nations now or in the past have not operated according to those points.

regards, Marilyn.

@Marilyn C Good indeed to remember the difference between, Jews, Gentiles and the church of God, as per 1 Corinthians 10.32.

 

[Marilyn C]

@Marilyn C I guess "Laodicean" means allowing one's heart to grown lukewarm to the things of God, right?

It has been said that the first generation of believers have the Scriptures in their hearts, the second generation may have them in their heads, the third generation may have them on the shelf.....

Hi favouk,

I would say that many people are zealous but for the wrong reason. They have been deceived to think that we, believers are going to take over the world and present it to the Lord. This deception is coming through all the organisations dressed is robes of -

- partnering with others to make the world better, (instead of holding fast to the Head).
- developing a culture of ....... (instead of building up the Body of Christ).
- increasing the kingdom of God, (as if God gave any part away) (instead of building up the Body of Christ).

and many other deceptive words.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[farouk]

Hi favouk,

I would say that many people are zealous but for the wrong reason. They have been deceived to think that we, believers are going to take over the world and present it to the Lord. This deception is coming through all the organisations dressed is robes of -

- partnering with others to make the world better, (instead of holding fast to the Head).
- developing a culture of ....... (instead of building up the Body of Christ).
- increasing the kingdom of God, (as if God gave any part away) (instead of building up the Body of Christ).

and many other deceptive words.

regards, Marilyn.

@Marilyn C Yes, I strongly agree there; it's a question of keeping in mind the nature of the church, and the headship of Christ, and 'looking unto Jesus' (Hebrews 12.2).

 

[farouk]

@Marilyn C I'm Farouk, BTW, not Favouk..... :)

 

[Marilyn C]

What was Peter's point to say that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night if the fiery destruction he described won't occur until 1000+ years after Christ returns?

Why did Peter warn his readers about the coming day of the Lord if it isn't something that can possibly affect them?

Please tell me exactly how you interpret 2 Peter 3:10-13.

There are plenty of scriptures which show all unbelievers being destroyed when Christ returns. Jesus Himself taught that.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

What Jesus said here lines up with what Peter said here:

2 Peter 3:3 Above all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4 They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our ancestors died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

Jesus indicated that heaven and earth will pass away at His second coming and that no one knows the day or hour that will occur. It will come unexpected like a thief in the night, as Jesus described in Matthew 24:42-44. It is upon His arrival that global destruction occurs, not 1000+ years later as you believe. Jesus said that just as the unbelievers in Noah's day didn't know what was coming and they were all destroyed, "that is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man". All unbelievers will be caught off guard by the future event where "sudden destruction" (1 Thess 5:2-3) by way of fire (2 Peter 3:7;10-12) comes down on them from which "they will not escape" (1 Thess 5:2-3).

Paul, like Peter, indicated that the destruction that will occur upon the arrival of the day of the Lord will be sudden and unexpected and will be such that "they will not escape". And, like Peter, Paul warned his readers about that coming day. Why would he do that if the destruction described did not actually occur until 1000+ years after the return of Christ? Surely, you understand that Peter and Paul were not warning their readers about something that would happen 1000+ years after the return of Christ, but rather were warning their readers about something that could happen in their lifetimes if Jesus returned in their lifetimes.

Then there is this:

2 Thessalonians 1:6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Paul made it very clear that when Jesus returns He will take vengeance on all unbelievers which are those "who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus". So, what about believers? Paul indicated on the same day that Jesus destroys all unbelievers is the day "He comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed". Paul was writing about the same day he wrote about in 1 Thess 4:13-5:11. A great day for believers and a terrible day for unbelievers.

Revelation 19:15-18 also describes the destruction of all unbelievers on the day Christ returns. So, the type of destruction Peter describes in 2 Peter 3:10-12 lines up with these other scriptures as being something that will occur on the day Christ returns.

Peter said `in which the heaven and earth...` That is not on the day the Lord returns for there are many prophetic words yet to be fulfilled after He comes. The Day of the Lord, is also a period of time, (as the Hebrew and Greek say).

The believers will see the day approaching, for they are NOT in darkeness. (Heb. 10: 25, 1 Thess. 5: 4)

 

[Marilyn C]

@Marilyn C I'm Farouk, BTW, not Favouk..... :)

Sorry, a slip of the fingers. Thanks for the correction.

 

[farouk]

Sorry, a slip of the fingers. Thanks for the correction.

@Marilyn C No prob. :)

 

[farouk]

Peter said `in which the heaven and earth...` That is not on the day the Lord returns for there are many prophetic words yet to be fulfilled after He comes. The Day of the Lord, is also a period of time, (as the Hebrew and Greek say).

The believers will see the day approaching, for they are NOT in darkeness. (Heb. 10: 25, 1 Thess. 5: 4)

@Marilyn C Clearly, not all future fulfillments relate directly to the church.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hi Randy,

Some more thoughts for you regarding if a nation can be Christian.

1. Political. Lording it over the people.

`Jesus called them to Himself and said, "You know that the rulers of the gentiles (nations) lord it over them, and those who are great exercise authority over them. yet it shall NOT be so among you;...` (Matt. 20: 25 & 26)

2. Military. Armies to defend themselves or go to war.

`For though we walk in the flesh, we do NOT war according to the flesh...` (2 Cor. 10: 3)

3. Economic. Usury, how the world system functions.

`You shall NOT charge interest, (usury) to your brother...` (Deut. 23: 19)

The banks get richer, and the poor get poorer.


So, Randy which nations now or in the past have not operated according to those points.

regards, Marilyn.

You're making a big mistake, in my opinion.

1) Jesus referred to "Gentile rulers," which refers to pagan governments. Though Christians were to submit to them, they were not the ideal government to God. To God, the ideal government was in Israel, and was *not* a Gentile, or pagan, government. When Christians assume their government, their rulers are not to rule like the pagans. But they are indeed called to rule, just as King David was called to rule.

2) Fighting in the flesh refers to trying to exact vengeance or victory over enemies apart from the inspiration of God, and without the guidance of God. As such, those who fight their battles do so on their own, without God's help. This says nothing about those who wage wars *with God's help.* If you read about the good kings in the book of Kings, you will see that God not only was for war--He commanded it!

3) Usury did not cancel out giving loans or even charging interest in some cases. It was not something that should take place within the people of God, though lending practices could more liberally be applied on behalf of those who are outside the community of faith. Christian governments often oversee not just their Christian citizens, but also many non-Christian citizens. So we must not assume that there won't be economic practices that go beyond "brotherly love."