Why I'm Premil

[Spiritual Israelite]

Paul and John regularly questioned whether "Christians" were really Christians. So no, the term for "Christians" in the Bible, eg believers in Christ, applied to those who started in Christianity and then became disqualified. In the same way, the "Church" would apply to all those who have started out in Christ, including those who do not faithfully follow through and actually turn against the faith.

In the OT we see the blueprint for this definition of "God's People" when we see in the Scriptures God regularly disqualify them, in part or in whole.

2 Cor 13.3-5 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves.

If someone is not in the faith then he or she is not a Christian. Period. This passage does not indicate that someone who is not in the faith is a Christian.

1 Cor 9.27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

This verse does not say that an unbeliever can be considered a Christian. If Paul was disqualified for the prize then that would mean he was not a Christian at that point.

Eph 3.17 And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love

This verse says nothing about an unbeliever being a Christian.

Gal 4.19 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you

Paul was addressing people here who troubled him because of their zealousness for their old covenant law. Where did he call these people Christians? Obviously, not everyone attending the churches there were Christians.

John 15.4 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you.

If someone does not remain in Him, are they still a Christian? Certainly not! Don't you understand that a Christian is someone who is saved and belongs to Christ? What is your definition of a Christian?

1 John 3.24 And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

How does this verse indicate that an unbeliever can be considered a Christian?

2 Tim 3.8 They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.

You are trying to say that this is talking about Christians? No way! Christians would never be described as having depraved minds. Look at the context of this verse.

2 Tim 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.

The type of people Paul was talking about in verse 8 are like Jannes and Jambres who "oppose the truth" and about the type of people described in the previous verses. Do you think Jannes and Jambres and the type of people described in the previous verses are describing Christians? Clearly not.

Tit 1.16 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him.

Does claiming to be a Christian make someone a Christian? Clearly not. None of these verses even come close to supporting your claim that unbelievers can be considered Christians.

Hos 1.8 8 After she had weaned Lo-Ruhamah, Gomer had another son. 9 Then the Lord said, “Call him Lo-Ammi (which means “not my people”), for you are not my people, and I am not your God.

Can those who "are not my people" and God is not their God be Christians? Of course not. So, none of these verses you quoted support your claim at all.

 

[jeffweeder]

If someone is not in the faith then he or she is not a Christian. Period. This passage does not indicate that someone who is not in the faith is a Christian.

This verse does not say that an unbeliever can be considered a Christian. If Paul was disqualified for the prize then that would mean he was not a Christian at that point.

This verse says nothing about an unbeliever being a Christian.

Paul was addressing people here who troubled him because of their zealousness for their old covenant law. Where did he call these people Christians? Obviously, not everyone attending the churches there were Christians.

If someone does not remain in Him, are they still a Christian? Certainly not! Don't you understand that a Christian is someone who is saved and belongs to Christ? What is your definition of a Christian?

How does this verse indicate that an unbeliever can be considered a Christian?

You are trying to say that this is talking about Christians? No way! Christians would never be described as having depraved minds. Look at the context of this verse.

2 Tim 3:1 But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people. 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.

The type of people Paul was talking about in verse 8 are like Jannes and Jambres who "oppose the truth" and about the type of people described in the previous verses. Do you think Jannes and Jambres and the type of people described in the previous verses are describing Christians? Clearly not.

Does claiming to be a Christian make someone a Christian? Clearly not. None of these verses even come close to supporting your claim that unbelievers can be considered Christians.

Can those who "are not my people" and God is not their God be Christians? Of course not. So, none of these verses you quoted support your claim at all.

The lengths people will go to...to protect their theories.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're going to be stuck because whenever you look at Scripture, you're looking at it from the pov of someone who did *not* write the Scripture. So whether it's Bible commentaries or Wikipedia or even your own view, you are looking at "Man's view" on top of what the Scripture authors may have meant.

The word "Christian" is hardly there, which is why I substituted "those who follow Christ." And even though "church" is mentioned, what we get in all of the epistles is an assortment of different people at different places in their faith. It is hardly all "perfect sainthood" when we talk about the "Church."

I gave you a number of Scriptures, and you are blowing past my argument. Oh well.... I tried.

It seems that you are not differentiating between Christ's church and the churches that are addressed in the New Testament. The church is a term used to reference the corporate body of Christ of which only those who belong to Christ are part. Paul described it here as "a holy temple in the Lord":

Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Do you think any unbelievers are included in what Paul described here? Clearly not, right? And this is a description of the church. There are no unbelievers or fake "Christians" in the church. But, there were some unbelievers and fake "Christians" in the churches that were addressed in Paul's letters.

So, you're confusing Christ's church with the churches that the New Testament letters were written to. Not all people who attended those churches were part of Christ's church. Just because they attended Christian churches doesn't make them part of the church/body of Christ. It's always been the case where some who attend church are not Christians. Some might think they are when they actually are not. Attending church or thinking that you're a Christian doesn't make you one. That should be obvious.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The lengths people will go to...to protect their theories.

In the case of some people, it seems to be any lengths. Which is sad to see.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What has Matt 13.52 to do with your thesis?

Jesus is saying that even though the "old" is passing away, to some extent, some of it must be retained, namely promises God has made. God can never break His promises. He is omnipotent and would never carelessly promise something He didn't expect to complete.

 

[Randy Kluth]

It seems that you are not differentiating between Christ's church and the churches that are addressed in the New Testament. The church is a term used to reference the corporate body of Christ of which only those who belong to Christ are part. Paul described it here as "a holy temple in the Lord":

Ephesians 2:19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. 21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. 22 And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.

Do you think any unbelievers are included in what Paul described here? Clearly not, right? And this is a description of the church. There are no unbelievers or fake "Christians" in the church. But, there were some unbelievers and fake "Christians" in the churches that were addressed in Paul's letters.

You're answering my point for me. I agree that sometimes the Bible addresses the eternal Church--only the saved. At other times I believe it addresses local churches that have Christians who have yet to examine themselves to see if they are really in Christ. That is the reason, I think, for our difference of opinion on this subject.

I gave WPM a number of passages to show that these local churches contain Christians that have not yet been established as "saved." But he will have none of it. Perhaps you will?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're answering my point for me. I agree that sometimes the Bible addresses the eternal Church--only the saved. At other times I believe it addresses local churches that have Christians who have yet to examine themselves to see if they are really in Christ. That is the reason, I think, for our difference of opinion on this subject.

Ugh! You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. You are calling those who are not in Christ "Christians". No! Christians are those who belong to Christ. Period. No one who doesn't belong to Christ is a Christian. You are trying to redefine the meaning of the term "Christian" to fit your doctrine. Stop it! Your attempt to call people who don't even belong to Christ "Christians" is, frankly, shameful and unbiblical.

I feel certain that Jesus Himself would not call anyone who wasn't with Him (who didn't belong to Him) a Christian the way you do.

Matthew 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

It seems that you believe that some who are not with Him are Christians even though, to Him, they are against Him. That is nonsense.

I gave WPM a number of passages to show that these local churches contain Christians that have not yet been established as "saved." But he will have none of it. Perhaps you will?

Of course I won't. You are WAY off on this. And I addressed all of those verses. Did you not see it? See post #201.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ugh! You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. You are calling those who are not in Christ "Christians". No! Christians are those who belong to Christ. Period. No one who doesn't belong to Christ is a Christian. You are trying to redefine the meaning of the term "Christian" to fit your doctrine. Stop it! Your attempt to call people who don't even belong to Christ "Christians" is, frankly, shameful and unbiblical.

Of course I won't. You are WAY off on this. And I addressed all of those verses. Did you not see it? See post #201.

Honestly, you don't understand my point on this? I'm saying that Church and believers in Christ, ie "Christians," are referred to in two entirely different ways in the Scriptures. You asked me to provide where in the Scriptures "Christians" and the "Church" can refer to the unsaved, so I'm answering your question, and you're just not getting it.

So 1) Christians and the Church refer exclusively to the saved, and not one unsaved person. And 2) Christians and the Church refer to local churches where "Christians" have not yet fully examined themselves and tested themselves to see if they are truly in Christ.

I gave the Scripture proofs to WPM, and he just chucked it aside--is it any wonder? He asks me for a Bible reference, and says I have "nothing." And then when I give him my Bible references he says it doesn't count because he has a different interpretation of the passage.

I've never said he or you have to agree on my Bible interpretations. But when he says I provide "nothing" biblical, he really needs to add a caveat to that statement?

So the following verses I gave him, and they are delivered by Paul and John to local churches who consist of people who have not yet completely determined their stand in Christ. As you yourself say, some of them are in the end not true Christians. But that doesn't mean that the Bible does not refer to them as believers in Christ to start with!

John 8.31 To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32 Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
33 They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

2 Cor 13.3-5 5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves.
1 Cor 9.27 No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.
Eph 3.17 And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love
Gal 4.19 19 My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you
John 15.4 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you.
1 John 3.24 And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
2 Tim 3.8 They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected.
Tit 1.16 16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him.

 

[WPM]

Jesus is saying that even though the "old" is passing away, to some extent, some of it must be retained, namely promises God has made. God can never break His promises. He is omnipotent and would never carelessly promise something He didn't expect to complete.

Please show us this in the text. Your opinion counts for nothing.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Please show us this in the text. Your opinion counts for nothing.

I've lost interest in debating with you. You're neither a fair nor a kind debater. I gave you 8 or more references, and you show you're insincere by completely ignoring them as irrelevant or "nothing." You're a very insulting person, and I hope you come to terms with this insulting way of life. You won't communicate a message by this kind of shady manipulation.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Please show us this in the text. Your opinion counts for nothing.

Like the carnal person that you are, you latch onto any words that are offensive to me and provoke some kind of reaction from me. That isn't edifying, and I'm no longer interested in debating with someone who by now should be mature in love. But you aren't. You apologize and then return to your old ways.

 

[WPM]

I've lost interest in debating with you. You're neither a fair nor a kind debater. I gave you 8 or more references, and you show you're insincere by completely ignoring them as irrelevant or "nothing." You're a very insulting person, and I hope you come to terms with this insulting way of life. You won't communicate a message by this kind of shady manipulation.

What are you talking about? Opinion - period - means nothing. That was my simple point. Nothing more or nothing less. That has been my mantra on these forums for years. I am looking hard Scripture. Your problem is, you are too thin skinned. You are always looking offence. It is time to chillax.

 

[WPM]

Like the carnal person that you are, you latch onto any words that are offensive to me and provoke some kind of reaction from me. That isn't edifying, and I'm no longer interested in debating with someone who by now should be mature in love. But you aren't. You apologize and then return to your old ways.

You cannot help but throw ad-hominem even when no insult was intended. You need to have a serious look in the mirror. Start with identifying what the word "Christian" actually means.

 

[Randy Kluth]

What are you talking about? Opinion - period - means nothing. That was my simple point. Nothing more or nothing less. That has been my mantra on these forums for years. I am looking hard Scripture. Your problem is, you are too thin skinned. You are always looking offence. It is time to chillax.

I never leave attitude out of conversations. That's because they're important. I'm not thin-skinned--I've been doing this for 20 years, on unmoderated and moderated forums. Get your attitude together and I will know it.

 

[WPM]

I never leave attitude out of conversations. That's because they're important. I'm not thin-skinned--I've been doing this for 20 years, on unmoderated and moderated forums. Get your attitude together and I will know it.

You like to play the victim. It is wearisome engaging with you. Why not apologize for falsely accusing me? Why do you never do that?

 

[Randy Kluth]

You like to play the victim. It is wearisome engaging with you. Why not apologize for falsely accusing me? Why do you never do that?

I obviously am not going to apologize for slandering you if I"m not doing that. You asked for a biblical basis for my belief that Christians and churches include what ultimately become unbelievers. I gave you 8 or 9 references, and you not only ignore it, but you say, insultingly, that I have "nothing." I'm fed up with your deceit.

 

[WPM]

I obviously am not going to apologize for slandering you if I"m not doing that. You asked for a biblical basis for my belief that Christians and churches include what ultimately become unbelievers. I gave you 8 or 9 references, and you not only ignore it, but you say, insultingly, that I have "nothing." I'm fed up with your deceit.

No one expects you to apologize for your lies or ad hominem. That is not what you do.

The fact is, you have given us nothing to support your claims that children of the devil are "Christian" (or followers of Christ). You are winging it. You never will. It is simply not there. It is you that is misrepresenting Scripture, and you know it. We have been pushing you for years to support your beliefs with the Word of God on this issue, but you refuse, thus your bitterness, frustration and constant personal attacks.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No one expects you to apologize for your lies or ad hominem. That is not what you do.

The fact is, you have given us nothing to support your claims that children of the devil are "Christian" (or followers of Christ). You are winging it. You never will. It is simply not there. It is you that is misrepresenting Scripture, and you know it. We have been pushing you for years to support your beliefs with the Word of God on this issue, but you refuse, thus your bitterness, frustration and constant personal attacks.

Who is "we?" Do you imagine you have a following?

 

[WPM]

Who is "we?" Do you imagine you have a following?

We "Amils." And, yes, we are close and communicate privately about your toxic attitude.

 

[Randy Kluth]

We "Amils." And, yes, we are close and communicate privately about your toxic attitude.

I see. You try to create carnal divisions in the church to preserve your idol, Amil? Got it. That explains some of your "cheerleaders" who mimic your approach, which isn't in the least godly, by the way.