Another Premillennial absurdity

[WPM]

I notice that you just repeat what I've already said, that racial and national distinctions mean nothing with respect to Salvation and membership in the Body of Christ. But saying racial and national distinctions mean nothing or are non-existent we simply need to look at the fact Paul referred to these distinctions. Paul continues to mention "Israel," in distinction to other nations. And he mentions "Gentiles," in distinction to Israel. The book of Revelation makes a number of references to nations and ethnicities.

And these distinctions remain important because God is fulfilling promises made to Abraham, that he would father the nation Israel and many other nations. If national distinctions are unimportant, then God's promise to have "many nations" could be changed to mean "one nation." If racial distinctions weren't important, then God's promise to Abraham to gather his descendants into a nation could be changed into "non-descendants can be gathered into a nation." Obviously, that's wrong.

The regular quoting of the deemphasis on racial and national distinctions, with respect to membership in Christ's one Body, continually ignores this, completely ignoring the elements central to God fulfilling His promises to "many nations." It would truly be absurd in this world if Christians stopped using words like S. African or Jew. Saying those distinctions no longer exist for the Christian is truly absurd!

No. He talks about the unification of believing Israel with believing Gentiles. The focus of the New Testament is the oneness of God's people. You're trying to divide them in two. But that does not work in the New Testament. This unitary entity is true Israel today.

The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

 

[Randy Kluth]

No. He talks about the unification of believing Israel with believing Gentiles. The focus of the New Testament is the oneness of God's people. You're trying to divide them in two. But that does not work in the New Testament. This unitary entity is true Israel today.

No, Paul did not talk about the unification of Jews and Gentiles into *one nation.* He spoke about their unification with respect to a unified membership in the Body of Christ. Christ is one, and those who become members in him are unified in him, and not in their differences.

It isn't the NT or the OT that divides the "many nations" from the "one nation," Israel. Rather, it was God's promise that those 2 elements *must* be in place. That doesn't change with the NT era. Those same 2 elements remain in play, because the fulfillment of these promises have not been completed yet.

That's why, in the book of Revelation, we see references to "many nations," to "Israel," because Abraham's promises are still being fulfilled. They aren't completed until they reach a place where their existence is no longer being threatened.

In the present age, Christian nations and Israel's status as a "nation of God" is constantly being threatened and hindered by Satan. When Satan is bound at the 2nd Coming of Christ, Israel will emerge, once again, as a godly nation. And many Christian nations will reassert themselves as such, without all of the compromise and corruption.

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations.
10.11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”
12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”
15.3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations...4 All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
18.23 All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
20.3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.
21.24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it... 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
22.2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Note that in ch. 20 the nations in the present age are in a state of being "deceived." They need to be "healed," according to ch. 22. God's plan is for Christ to rule the nations. That doesn't end at the 2nd Coming. It *begins* at the 2nd Coming, when the nations are no longer deceived, and are "healed!"

The New Testament makes clear; there is only one elect people. There is only one good olive tree, not two; one body, not two; one bride, not two; one spiritual temple, not two; one people of God, not two; one household of faith, not two; one fold, not two; one man, not “twain,” and one elect of God throughout time.

Our unity is in one man, who is divine--Christ. But our national and racial distinctions remain until our mortal existence ceases to be. According to the above Scripture passages, that will not happen until *after* Christ heals the nations and removes the one who is deceiving them, Satan. This will enable the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, to be the father of both Israel and many nations.

You're welcome to your own opinion. This is mine.

 

[WPM]

No, Paul did not talk about the unification of Jews and Gentiles into *one nation.* He spoke about their unification with respect to a unified membership in the Body of Christ. Christ is one, and those who become members in him are unified in him, and not in their differences.

It isn't the NT or the OT that divides the "many nations" from the "one nation," Israel. Rather, it was God's promise that those 2 elements *must* be in place. That doesn't change with the NT era. Those same 2 elements remain in play, because the fulfillment of these promises have not been completed yet.

That's why, in the book of Revelation, we see references to "many nations," to "Israel," because Abraham's promises are still being fulfilled. They aren't completed until they reach a place where their existence is no longer being threatened.

The opposite is the truth. After establishing the sovereign position held by God in salvation, Paul brings the Gentiles into the picture in regard to election in Romans 9:23-24. He contends in Romans 9:23-26, “that he [God] might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? As he saith also in Osee (Hosea 2:23), I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God (Hosea 1:10)”

In his great election discourse of Romans 9, Paul shows how true Israel has expanded out to incorporate the Gentiles. He previously covered this in great detail in Romans 2 and Romans 4. In perfect fulfilment of Old Testament prophecy, the Gentiles have been brought into full union and communion with God, on the same basis as Israel’s remnant community, and have become a part of the spiritual seed of Abraham, through faith in Christ and His atoning sacrifice.

Paul demonstrates in Romans 9:23-26 that Gentiles will be saved and join Israel’s believing remnant and as a result will be wholly considered as God’s chosen people. He proceeds to quote Hosea 2:23 (in verse 25) and Hosea 1:10 (in verse 26) to support his hypothesis. We see the enjoinment highlighted by the prophet Hosea in unambiguous terms. Not even the Dispensationalists could dilute this down or explain it away. Hosea 1:10 declares: “Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God.”

This correlates with many New Testament Scriptures that prove that we who were once aliens from God’s favor and separated from true Israel have now been fully integrated into believing Israel. New covenant Gentiles have been grafted into faithful Israel. Believing Gentiles and believing Israel share the same spiritual space and are not part of separate programs.

The next verse reveals what it is all about: “Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel.” The Old Testament narrative is seen to be all about Jesus.

God’s heart was always to reach out to the Gentiles in a significant way. In the Old Testament they were frequently viewed in negative terms as blind, ignorant, in darkness and not God’s people. But an important part of the Abrahamic covenant, and the new covenant arrangement, was the enlightenment of the Gentiles. The cross was the turning point, but Pentecost empowered the Jewish believers to reach out and touch the nations. As a result, countless Gentiles were adopted into the congregation of God on an equal footing to the Jews. This supports the reality of a continuity of God’s people relating to God’s overriding covenant of grace covering both testaments.

Paul then quotes from Hosea 2:23: “I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.”

Central to Paul’s “remnant” theology teaching is the integration of the Gentiles into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how a large influx of Gentiles would come into the covenant family. The spiritual blessings and promises that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been imparted to the Gentiles by faith. The New Testament people of God are now:

1. The “children of the living God.”
2. His “beloved” possession.
3. And are intimately known by God as “my people.”

The elect remnant (the early followers of Jesus) functioned in the covenant promises pertaining to Israel, including extending out salvation to the nations. The Abrahamic promises, and many other Old Testament prophecies were realized in the growth of the new covenant congregation of God (ekklesia) to the nations – the Church. Paul confirms this when speaking to the Gentile believers at Galatia, saying, “Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now” Galatians 4:28-29).

There is now no difference today between them and the elect Jews. Nationality doesn’t matter anymore today in the new covenant economy. Romans 10:12-13: “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

There are no ethnicities within the body of Christ. There are no subgroups, cultures, colors or creeds, just one harmonious redeemed company that has been unified through the person and work of Christ our Savior. The distinction is only between those that are born of God and are of the household of faith (both natural Israelites and natural Gentiles) and those that are Christ rejecting and consequently of their father the devil and are therefore of the flesh (both natural Israelites and natural Gentiles). God’s only vehicle for communion and the revelation of Himself on this earth is His body – the temple – the Church. This body, the Church, is the sole body ordained of God for the proclamation and defense of the Word of God, and has Christ as its supreme ruling Head.

Paul continues his thought in Romans 10:19-21. He employs Deuteronomy 32:21 to make this see them point: “Moses saith, I will provoke you (natural Israel) to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation (the mainly Gentile New Testament Church) I will anger you.”

This “foolish” nation that has been graciously found of God, without first seeking Him, is the largely Gentile New Testament congregation. They are those of all kindred’s, tongues and tribes, who have come to God through Christ in true repentance. That elect people are not a physical earthly nation but an invisible spiritual kingdom.

In Romans 10:20-21, Paul supports his line of reasoning, this time referring to Isaiah 65:1, saying, “Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me (the Gentiles). But to Israel (according to the flesh) he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.”

In Romans 10 Paul is tracing the unbelief of the Jews by which they rejected Jesus Christ. Paul makes clear that there is no difference between Jews and Greeks under the new covenant.

 

[WPM]

No, Paul did not talk about the unification of Jews and Gentiles into *one nation.* He spoke about their unification with respect to a unified membership in the Body of Christ. Christ is one, and those who become members in him are unified in him, and not in their differences.

It isn't the NT or the OT that divides the "many nations" from the "one nation," Israel. Rather, it was God's promise that those 2 elements *must* be in place. That doesn't change with the NT era. Those same 2 elements remain in play, because the fulfillment of these promises have not been completed yet.

That's why, in the book of Revelation, we see references to "many nations," to "Israel," because Abraham's promises are still being fulfilled. They aren't completed until they reach a place where their existence is no longer being threatened.

In the present age, Christian nations and Israel's status as a "nation of God" is constantly being threatened and hindered by Satan. When Satan is bound at the 2nd Coming of Christ, Israel will emerge, once again, as a godly nation. And many Christian nations will reassert themselves as such, without all of the compromise and corruption.

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations.
10.11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”
12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”
15.3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations...4 All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
18.23 All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
20.3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.
21.24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it... 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
22.2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Note that in ch. 20 the nations in the present age are in a state of being "deceived." They need to be "healed," according to ch. 22. God's plan is for Christ to rule the nations. That doesn't end at the 2nd Coming. It *begins* at the 2nd Coming, when the nations are no longer deceived, and are "healed!"


Our unity is in one man, who is divine--Christ. But our national and racial distinctions remain until our mortal existence ceases to be. According to the above Scripture passages, that will not happen until *after* Christ heals the nations and removes the one who is deceiving them, Satan. This will enable the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, to be the father of both Israel and many nations.

You're welcome to your own opinion. This is mine.

This same truth is taken up by Peter in 1 Peter 2:9-10. Whilst addressing the New Testament Church of Jesus Christ, he declares, “ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light. Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Here, Peter confirms the significant participation of Gentile believers in God’s elect covenant community. Where natural Israel failed in their vocation, true Israel accomplishes it as a multinational spiritual force. He takes promises, which were clearly addressed to Old Testament Israel (in Exodus 19:5-6 and Deuteronomy 14:2), and applies them directly and unambiguously to the Church of Jesus Christ in the New Testament. God’s people are shown to be a holy people, because God is holy. In presenting this, Peter ratifies the continuity between the people of God in the Old Testament and the people of God in the New Testament.

Let us remind ourselves of the Old Testament text in Exodus 19:5-6: “Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.” Deuteronomy 14:2 connects: “for thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.”

Far from restricting the “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” description to the nation of Israel, Peter expands it out to embrace the many Gentile believers in this new covenant period. Not even the most blinkered Dispy could surely dispute this. The New Testament trans-national congregation today fulfils the priestly commission that Old Testament Israel failed to accomplish.

To support his reasoning, he also employs Hosea 1:10 which predicted that enlightening of the Gentiles, and their integration into the people of God. This is demonstrated in verse 10, where he testifies that the mainly Gentile Church who were once “not a people, but are now the people of God” had now been integrated into the Israel of God. He reinforces this point, telling us that they “which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Adam Clarke say of this reading: “The titles formerly given to the whole Jewish church, i.e. to all the Israelites without exception, all who were in the covenant of God by circumcision, whether they were holy persons or not, are here given to Christians in general in the same way; i.e. to all who believed in Christ, whether Jews or Gentiles, and who received baptism in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”

Peter describes the Church as “a chosen generation” (or a chosen race), “a royal priesthood” and “an holy nation.” He related this to all believers, irrespective of natural race. This shows us the spiritual nature of the Israeli designation in the New Testament. We can find that holy nation predicted in Isaiah 55:5 says, “Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.”

Both Paul and Peter allude to the Old Testament prophecies in Hosea that predict a people that were separated from God (the Gentiles) would become the people of God. They demonstrate, with legal acumen, that many of the great promises that rested upon Old Testament Israel are now exclusively realized in the spiritual entity of the non-ethnic assembly of God.

 

[covenantee]

No, Paul did not talk about the unification of Jews and Gentiles into *one nation.* He spoke about their unification with respect to a unified membership in the Body of Christ. Christ is one, and those who become members in him are unified in him, and not in their differences.

It isn't the NT or the OT that divides the "many nations" from the "one nation," Israel. Rather, it was God's promise that those 2 elements *must* be in place. That doesn't change with the NT era. Those same 2 elements remain in play, because the fulfillment of these promises have not been completed yet.

That's why, in the book of Revelation, we see references to "many nations," to "Israel," because Abraham's promises are still being fulfilled. They aren't completed until they reach a place where their existence is no longer being threatened.

In the present age, Christian nations and Israel's status as a "nation of God" is constantly being threatened and hindered by Satan. When Satan is bound at the 2nd Coming of Christ, Israel will emerge, once again, as a godly nation. And many Christian nations will reassert themselves as such, without all of the compromise and corruption.

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations.
10.11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”
12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”
15.3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations...4 All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
18.23 All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
20.3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.
21.24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it... 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
22.2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Note that in ch. 20 the nations in the present age are in a state of being "deceived." They need to be "healed," according to ch. 22. God's plan is for Christ to rule the nations. That doesn't end at the 2nd Coming. It *begins* at the 2nd Coming, when the nations are no longer deceived, and are "healed!"


Our unity is in one man, who is divine--Christ. But our national and racial distinctions remain until our mortal existence ceases to be. According to the above Scripture passages, that will not happen until *after* Christ heals the nations and removes the one who is deceiving them, Satan. This will enable the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, to be the father of both Israel and many nations.

You're welcome to your own opinion. This is mine.

All promises are fulfilled and completed.


In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled only in Christ, and in those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

If you deny that God has appointed His Son heir of all things, you declare God to be a liar.

His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...declare that we who are in Christ are joint heirs with Him.

But notice:

There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile...

Who is not in Christ.

 

[WPM]

No, Paul did not talk about the unification of Jews and Gentiles into *one nation.* He spoke about their unification with respect to a unified membership in the Body of Christ. Christ is one, and those who become members in him are unified in him, and not in their differences.

It isn't the NT or the OT that divides the "many nations" from the "one nation," Israel. Rather, it was God's promise that those 2 elements *must* be in place. That doesn't change with the NT era. Those same 2 elements remain in play, because the fulfillment of these promises have not been completed yet.

That's why, in the book of Revelation, we see references to "many nations," to "Israel," because Abraham's promises are still being fulfilled. They aren't completed until they reach a place where their existence is no longer being threatened.

In the present age, Christian nations and Israel's status as a "nation of God" is constantly being threatened and hindered by Satan. When Satan is bound at the 2nd Coming of Christ, Israel will emerge, once again, as a godly nation. And many Christian nations will reassert themselves as such, without all of the compromise and corruption.

Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations.
10.11 Then I was told, “You must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings.”
12.5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”
15.3 and sang the song of God’s servant Moses and of the Lamb: “Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the nations...4 All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
18.23 All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”
20.3 He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended.
21.24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it... 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.
22.2 And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

Note that in ch. 20 the nations in the present age are in a state of being "deceived." They need to be "healed," according to ch. 22. God's plan is for Christ to rule the nations. That doesn't end at the 2nd Coming. It *begins* at the 2nd Coming, when the nations are no longer deceived, and are "healed!"


Our unity is in one man, who is divine--Christ. But our national and racial distinctions remain until our mortal existence ceases to be. According to the above Scripture passages, that will not happen until *after* Christ heals the nations and removes the one who is deceiving them, Satan. This will enable the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham, to be the father of both Israel and many nations.

You're welcome to your own opinion. This is mine.

Jesus reinforced this unitary spiritual nation throughout His teaching. We see that in Matthew 21:42-46: “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.”

Because of disobedience, God’s glory and exclusive favor was removed from ethnic Israel and given to a wider community of followers of Christ, containing both Jews and Gentiles. God’s whole purpose with man extends out beyond the borders of Israel and stretches out to the whole world.

A careful analysis of this passage undoubtedly reveals the person and power of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is here described as “this Stone.” The reading succinctly outlines the contrast between God’s dealings with His elect and that of the wicked. It is Him alone who breaks the stubborn will of man in salvation and brings him into perfect union with an offended God. For those who reject God’s only provision for sin, they meet Him as judge and are crushed.

This discourse showed these unbelieving religious Jews that because of their wanton rejection of Himself, Christ would extend His mercy to the Gentiles. The Stone here is unquestionably Christ, and evidently how one sees Him determines one’s ultimate and final eternal destiny. This nation, which is carefully identified with the kingdom of God, is the Church. This is clearly seen in the Lord’s wording. It would be a nation that brings forth the spiritual fruits of kingdom of God. Admittance into this nation is conditional upon one’s approach to, and acceptance of, this figurative stone in the reading. Christ said, “whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.”

The near exclusive favor that natural Israel had formerly enjoyed would now be graciously widened to include the previously darkened Gentile people. How could any Christian miss the spiritual import of this teaching? The kingdom has been taken from Israel as a nation and given to another nation. Who is that nation? It is the largely Gentile New Testament Church comprised of all believers (both Jew and Gentile).

 

[Randy Kluth]

In his great election discourse of Romans 9, Paul shows how true Israel has expanded out to incorporate the Gentiles.

We agree that God successfully reached out to the Gentiles in the NT era, and brought them into Salvation. But the founding of a Remnant in Israel who believe in Christ, based on the election of God, misses the boat, in my opinion.

The founding of a Remnant is meant, by Paul, to show the insufficiency of this, ie the inability to bring the whole nation back to God. This is a matter not of bringing every individual, by election, into spiritual salvation, but rather, a matter of bringing divine spirituality back to the nation as a whole, through a consensus of the people to follow God's laws once again.

This is a matter of blessing a nation, and not a matter of bringing evangelical salvation to every individual within the nation. The thought is to bless the nation, generally, and that requires only a large majority, not an exhaustive number of individually saved people! God wishes, I believe, to form in Israel a "Christian nation," so that many individuals within the nation can be truly saved.

Central to Paul’s “remnant” theology teaching is the integration of the Gentiles into faithful Israel. He demonstrates how a large influx of Gentiles would come into the covenant family. The spiritual blessings and promises that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been imparted to the Gentiles by faith.

You are conflating the expansion of the Gospel with an integration of many nations into a single nation! Never are we told that all nations become, through Christ, *one nation.* We are, however, told we all join, in a spiritually-unified way, into *one man,* Christ.

A lot of your arguments repeat what you've already said, and seems designed for novices. I've tried to distill the issues specifically between you and me to discuss that without all of the paraphernalia and propaganda. Please do me the service of addressing the specific differences, if you can in fact see them?

 

[WPM]

The founding of a Remnant is meant, by Paul, to show the insufficiency of this, ie the inability to bring the whole nation back to God. This is a matter not of bringing every individual, by election, into spiritual salvation, but rather, a matter of bringing divine spirituality back to the nation as a whole, through a consensus of the people to follow God's laws once again.

This is a matter of blessing a nation, and not a matter of bringing evangelical salvation to every individual within the nation. The thought is to bless the nation, generally, and that requires only a large majority, not an exhaustive number of individually saved people! God wishes, I believe, to form in Israel a "Christian nation," so that many individuals within the nation can be truly saved.


You are conflating the expansion of the Gospel with an integration of many nations into a single nation! Never are we told that all nations become, through Christ, *one nation.* We are, however, told we all join, in a spiritually-unified way, into *one man,* Christ.

A lot of your arguments repeat what you've already said, and seems designed for novices. I've tried to distill the issues specifically between you and me to discuss that without all of the paraphernalia and propaganda. Please do me the service of addressing the specific differences, if you can in fact see them?

This is false teaching! This is extra-biblical! You are so infatuated with ethnic Israel (and your invented Jewish hope) and so bogged down with your fanciful idea of modern theocracies in this current old covenant period, when the reality is they do not exist, that you miss the spiritual emphasis of the NT.

You have not been able to show us any NT Scripture to prove this. Here is the self-confessed source of your theology:

I've identified them, and you pretend I haven't. Go look the term "Christian nation" up in an encyclopedia, dictionary, or on the internet. Have fun with words that don't mean anything!

That sums up where you get your info. Where is this in the Bible? Or, does that not matter anymore?

Who cares what your opinion is, or what a secular dictionary says. This is getting so old. Where does the NT use "Christian” nominally as meaning the citizens of a "Christian State" that can be Christian in name only or a genuine Christian?

If I give you an answer from Webster's or from a standard Encyclopedia, you will just write it off as "non-Christian."

LOL. I wonder why?

From Wikipedia: A Christian state is a country that recognizes a form of Christianity as its official religion and often has a state church (also called an established church),[1] which is a Christian denomination that supports the government and is supported by the government. HERE

Theocracy is a form of government in which one or more deities of some type are recognized as supreme ruling authorities, giving divine guidance to human intermediaries who manage the day-to-day affairs of the government. HERE

You have no biblical basis for your claim of Christian theocracies. You have nothing. It's a figment of your imagination. To achieve your theory, you must redefine what Christian actually means. However, biblically you do not have a foot to stand on. That is why you must depend on secular encyclopedias, dictionaries, and the internet for your arguments.

 

[WPM]

A lot of your arguments repeat what you've already said, and seems designed for novices. I've tried to distill the issues specifically between you and me to discuss that without all of the paraphernalia and propaganda. Please do me the service of addressing the specific differences, if you can in fact see them?

Instead of basing your theology off secular websites and dictionaries, it would be better if you opened up your Bible and let it speak for itself. There is only one nation that is God's in the NT era, and it is spiritual. It involves peoples of all nationalities. Their citizenship is not off this world, it is heavenly. It was considered "a foolish nation" from an Old Testament perspective but is known in the New Testament as "a holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9) that would bring “forth the fruits thereof” (Matt 21:43). A Christ-rejecting nation is neither chosen, pleasing to God, holy or fruit-bearing.

Your fight is with the prophets, Jesus, the NT writers and all Amils.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One of the main problems Premillennialism has is that it has a glorified Jesus bringing back all the redeemed of all the ages that have enjoyed perfect communion with Christ in His majestic heavenly presence since the time He defeated sin and death 2000 years ago, giving them new eternal incorruptible bodies at His second coming, along with the living in Christ, rewarding them with eternal bliss, and then bringing them back to a corruptible millennial earth filled with degenerates, death, decay and depravity, just like our present day. It is just another re-run of our current evil age.

Premillennialism has saints that have been delivered from a sinful world thousands of years ago being forced to come back to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued sin, death and decay. Finally, the saints will have to engage in literal physical spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global mortal army – Gog and Magog. They will be confronted with the awful sight of Satan being released from his prison to mobilize a global assault upon Jesus and the glorified saints in earthly Jerusalem. This army will consist of all the millennial mortals that have feigned worship to the Lord Jesus Christ for a thousand years turning in their billions at the drop of a hat from following Jesus to following Satan as the sand of the sea.

This whole portrayal is ridiculous and nonsensical, and will never happen.

Agree. The Premil scenario is as ridiculous and nonsensical as it gets. They turn the thousand years into a pointless time period that would accomplish absolutely nothing. Whatever it was intended to accomplish would clearly fail because the end result would be a number of people "as the sand of the sea" rebelling and actively opposing Jesus and His people (Rev 20:7-9).

Is that how we should see God's plan for the future? A completely nonsensical time of utter failure and pointlessness? Of course not! Instead it makes much more sense that Jesus will come to meet with all of His people from all-time after their bodies are "changed" to be immortal and that He will then put an end to sin and death forever. That seems like a very successful mission to me! But, Him coming to rule for a thousand years on earth that results in most of those He ruled over turning against Him? That seems like a complete failure and could make someone question if He knows what He's doing. God forbid!

No, Jesus will not mess around in the future the way Premils think He will. When He comes He will take care of business on that day. There will be no delay in the judgment of His enemies. Why would there be? He will destroy His living enemies that day and judge all of His enemies from all-time at that point. Why wait to do that? So that He can rule over a failed kingdom for a thousand years first? I don't think so! No way!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Rev 20.7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore.

I don't know what the number will be, but we are told that it will be large. But that isn't the point I was trying to make. Satan will gather this horde *only at the end of the thousand year period,* after the Millennial Era has lapsed! It does *not* characterize the Millennial Era itself, which Premills describe as an era of relative peace and Christian prosperity, the fulfillment of promises God made to Abraham concerning Israel and concerning many nations of faith.

What would be the point of the supposed future "Millennial Era", knowing that once it ends everything that it may have accomplished would fall apart, resulting in a huge number of people "as the sand of the sea" rebelling against Jesus and against everything they had learned and experienced for the past thousand years?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

What's nonsensical is that this doesn't depict Premill at all. It may be the beliefs of many individual Premills all mixed together to make an incoherent picture of what Premills in general do *not* believe!

I do not need to prove this. It goes without saying. It's telling that there is no quote to substantiate what you think "Premills believe."

Why did you say this without even bothering to point out one thing that he said that did not reflect the beliefs of Premils? It goes without saying? Please. Just back up what you're saying with one or two examples. Is that too much to ask?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Why did you say this without even bothering to point out one thing that he said that did not reflect the beliefs of Premils? It goes without saying? Please. Just back up what you're saying with one or two examples. Is that too much to ask?

No it isn't. This goes a ways back, so you just haven't followed this from the beginning. I have bothered to make the point clear--you just weren't here.

WPM said that Premills believe the Millennium is characterized by wicked people, by goats, by atrocity, etc. You've heard him say it?

And I have agreed only in the sense that Premills believe people will be mortal in the Millennium, having a Sin Nature, and will therefore die. Having a Sin Nature, people will certainly sin, and some people will be better, while others will be worse.

But Premills do *not* believe in characterizing the Millennium in such a horrific state with wicked men running wild, committing atrocities everywhere. Premills believe that mortal men will behave differently in the Millennium since Satan will be bound at that time. Christian nations will prosper and be blessed. Israel will convert to Christianity, and be blessed. Non-Christian nations will not be so blessed, but there will be peace on earth--no international warfare.

I have granted WPM his right to characterize things the way he wishes. He may say that logically, if Premills believe there are mortals in the Millennium, logically that means there must be apocalyptic warfare, hideous crimes, lewd behaviors on a massive scale, etc. He may argue that billions of people who rebel after the Millennium must certainly have been going bad for centuries to reach that level of corruption.

But if he wishes to say that this is what Premills believe, he should quote them, saying the very words he puts into their mouths. He has utterly failed to do that. You may want to defend your brother, and scrape up any defense you can. But good luck!

 

[Randy Kluth]

What would be the point of the supposed future "Millennial Era", knowing that once it ends everything that it may have accomplished would fall apart, resulting in a huge number of people "as the sand of the sea" rebelling against Jesus and against everything they had learned and experienced for the past thousand years?

The purpose is, as I've long said, that God complete his blueprint for humanity, to fix Christian nations on earth to represent His eternal glory. Humanity has always been divided between those who choose to return to following God and those who wish to go their own way. God simply disposes of the rebels when He is done collecting His prize diorama.

What He accomplishes in a thousand years of Christian history, replete with many Christian nations, is proof to the world of how good His eternal plan looks, in particular after final judgment. The losses He suffers with a massive rebellion is no different than in the present age, when we've had many Christian nations who now are turning away from the faith to apostasy.

God has not lost any of the saints He has enabled to be born, grow, and develop into families. You get a lot of chaff in order to produce the wheat.

I suppose the big difference between the present age and the Millennium is that due to Satan's interference and opposition our Christian nations are not allowed to fully develop. In the Millennial Age, Christian nations will display the peace and prosperity that has been elusive since the Fall, its collapse not withstanding.

It seems that in the end God's People are reduced to a city. But I'm not clear on that. It appears from the dimensions of New Jerusalem that it will envelop the entire Middle East and stretch up as far as outer space.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Instead of basing your theology off secular websites and dictionaries, it would be better if you opened up your Bible and let it speak for itself. There is only one nation that is God's in the NT era, and it is spiritual. It involves peoples of all nationalities. Their citizenship is not off this world, it is heavenly. It was considered "a foolish nation" from an Old Testament perspective but is known in the New Testament as "a holy nation" (1 Pet 2:9) that would bring “forth the fruits thereof” (Matt 21:43). A Christ-rejecting nation is neither chosen, pleasing to God, holy or fruit-bearing.

I do read my Bible, and I have read my Bible. Shame on you for presuming to know my habits! You shame me for not knowing that a spiritual nation encompasses many nations, but that is nowhere in the Bible. You *spiritualize* the word "nation" in order to make this happen for you. But to expect me to believe this simply by reading the Bible is absurd. I'm not going to follow your definitions, which is not only "reading into" the text, but it is also accompanied by a hostile spirit, which makes me very suspicious.

Oh yes, I know some people talk about Peter's reference to the nation Israel. They think Peter is referring to the entire Church when he mentions this one nation. But Peter is clearly talking to Jewish exiles about the nation Israel and her original calling to be a People of God. Hosea prophesied that Israel, though she would cease to be God's People, would become God's People again. That's what I believe because it's in the Bible. And I've read it many, many times.

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is false teaching! This is extra-biblical! You are so infatuated with ethnic Israel (and your invented Jewish hope) and so bogged down with your fanciful idea of modern theocracies in this current old covenant period, when the reality is they do not exist, that you miss the spiritual emphasis of the NT.

You have not been able to show us any NT Scripture to prove this. Here is the self-confessed source of your theology:



That sums up where you get your info. Where is this in the Bible? Or, does that not matter anymore?

Who cares what your opinion is, or what a secular dictionary says. This is getting so old. Where does the NT use "Christian” nominally as meaning the citizens of a "Christian State" that can be Christian in name only or a genuine Christian?



LOL. I wonder why?



You have no biblical basis for your claim of Christian theocracies. You have nothing. It's a figment of your imagination. To achieve your theory, you must redefine what Christian actually means. However, biblically you do not have a foot to stand on. That is why you must depend on secular encyclopedias, dictionaries, and the internet for your arguments.

You are so incredibly warped by your hostility and pride! Do you have no secular education? You don't read encyclopedias or dictionaries? You don't read history?

I'm sure you do, just like I do, but to claim I'm replacing the Bible with secular information is patently false. That's pure judgment on your part. And I have no interest in getting into another fight that will get me kicked out of a thread like you've done elsewhere. Get your hostility out of it, or go away.

What you call "false teaching" I've presented in a very explanatory way. You can say anything you like, including lies, if you wish. You can distort, exaggerate, or mischaracterize. But I'm not interested in it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Jesus reinforced this unitary spiritual nation throughout His teaching. We see that in Matthew 21:42-46: “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet.”

Because of disobedience, God’s glory and exclusive favor was removed from ethnic Israel and given to a wider community of followers of Christ, containing both Jews and Gentiles. God’s whole purpose with man extends out beyond the borders of Israel and stretches out to the whole world.

A careful analysis of this passage undoubtedly reveals the person and power of the Lord Jesus Christ, who is here described as “this Stone.” The reading succinctly outlines the contrast between God’s dealings with His elect and that of the wicked. It is Him alone who breaks the stubborn will of man in salvation and brings him into perfect union with an offended God. For those who reject God’s only provision for sin, they meet Him as judge and are crushed.

This discourse showed these unbelieving religious Jews that because of their wanton rejection of Himself, Christ would extend His mercy to the Gentiles. The Stone here is unquestionably Christ, and evidently how one sees Him determines one’s ultimate and final eternal destiny. This nation, which is carefully identified with the kingdom of God, is the Church.

You seem to think that just quoting a Scripture lends legitimacy to your conclusions? It doesn't. The Scripture you quoted can fit into your scenario and it can fit into my scenario.

We both believe Israel fell on hard times, and was rejected. We both believe the grace formerly given to the nation Israel has now been given to other nations.

Does this mean the Church now excludes Israel and only includes other nations? Of course not. What was passed on to Gentile nations was a temporal form of God's Kingdom, a Christian theocracy. Israel failed that, but is destined to eventually get it, when the Gentiles have had their own opportunity. We will fail, as well.

This quote simply speaks of a transference from the nation Israel to the Roman nation--it does not limit the Church to just the Roman nation!

We know from Daniel 7 that the Roman Kingdom would eventually be divided up into at least 10 nations. To think that the transfer to a single nation means we should spiritualize the meaning of "nation" is absurd.

This initial transfer to the Roman nation was just the start of the Gospel mission to "all nations." The idea was the transfer of the *political rule* of the Kingdom, a Christian rule over society, or what I call a "Christian Theocracy."

Christian nations have existed since the time that the Roman Empire was Christianized under Theodosius. And since that time we've had Christian France, Christian Germany, Christian Scandinavia, and in the East Christian Byzantium, and many Slavic Christian nations.

They were not all designed to be called a single "nation," comprising all of them! You're definitely reading this into a single verse. And on its face it is indeed absurd. But you're welcome to your own personal theological speculations.

 

[WPM]

I do read my Bible, and I have read my Bible. Shame on you for presuming to know my habits! You shame me for not knowing that a spiritual nation encompasses many nations, but that is nowhere in the Bible. You *spiritualize* the word "nation" in order to make this happen for you. But to expect me to believe this simply by reading the Bible is absurd. I'm not going to follow your definitions, which is not only "reading into" the text, but it is also accompanied by a hostile spirit, which makes me very suspicious.

Oh yes, I know some people talk about Peter's reference to the nation Israel. They think Peter is referring to the entire Church when he mentions this one nation. But Peter is clearly talking to Jewish exiles about the nation Israel and her original calling to be a People of God. Hosea prophesied that Israel, though she would cease to be God's People, would become God's People again. That's what I believe because it's in the Bible. And I've read it many, many times.

You are obsessed with the wrong Israel. Your carnal expectation is exposed by Christ and all the NT writers. As is your MO, your rebuttals consist of you building your case upon your opinions. In doing that, you skip around multiple Scriptures I presented that . You step around all the arguments also. That is because Scripture and the arguments expose the error of your Zionism.

The principal element that joins the old and the new, Jew and Gentile, together is shown to be Jesus Christ. He overlaps both covenants, He brings a continuity in salvation and is at the core of meeting man’s greatest need in any day. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows how one’s response to Christ will ultimately determine one’s eternal destiny. Accept Him, and experience eternal life. Reject Him, and experience eternal damnation. Participation in God’s elect remnant therefore is determined by our relationship with Jesus – man’s redeemer and Israel’s only Messiah. Paul presents Christ as the epicenter of man’s favor with God. He supports his teaching with the analogy of a figurative stone which the elect embrace but the religious balk at. He refers back to the Old Testament to Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 8:14 to support his thesis.

Romans 9:30-33 records: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

Paul shows how national religious Israel missed the boat because they rejected Christ (“they stumbled at that stumblingstone”). Also, they were bound to a religious aberration that revolved around keeping the law. The fact is: none of them could keep it. They were totally deceived if they thought they could. They were not a believing people which is why they were cut out of the good Israeli olive tree. On the other hand, Paul shows natural Gentiles (heathens) embracing that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Albert Barnes explains: “This rock, designed as a corner stone to the church, became, by the wickedness of the Jews, the block over which they fall into ruin.”

Through Calvary, the Gentiles have been brought into a new realm, a new spiritual status, and therefore enjoy a new citizenship, with new sanctified benefits. Gentile believers united with Jewish believers on an equal basis, inhabiting God’s Zion. Christ taught this same truth (that Paul shares in Romans 9:30-33) in Matthew 21:42-44 – relating various Messianic prophecies to Himself (only adding Isaiah 28:16 to the mix). By doing this, Christ reveals the literal fulfilment of these figurative Old Testament prophecies in our day. In Matthew 21:44, Jesus laid it out as straight and simple as it could honestly be said: “whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.” Nothing has changed today!

 

[WPM]

You are so incredibly warped by your hostility and pride! Do you have no secular education? You don't read encyclopedias or dictionaries? You don't read history?

I'm sure you do, just like I do, but to claim I'm replacing the Bible with secular information is patently false. That's pure judgment on your part. And I have no interest in getting into another fight that will get me kicked out of a thread like you've done elsewhere. Get your hostility out of it, or go away.

What you call "false teaching" I've presented in a very explanatory way. You can say anything you like, including lies, if you wish. You can distort, exaggerate, or mischaracterize. But I'm not interested in it.

You have admitted the source of your beliefs on national theocracies cannot be found in the NT, and are derived in secular dictionaries and Wikipedia. That is why you cannot bring Scripture to the table. What you promote is extra-biblical.

 

[WPM]

You seem to think that just quoting a Scripture lends legitimacy to your conclusions? It doesn't. The Scripture you quoted can fit into your scenario and it can fit into my scenario.

We both believe Israel fell on hard times, and was rejected. We both believe the grace formerly given to the nation Israel has now been given to other nations.

Does this mean the Church now excludes Israel and only includes other nations? Of course not. What was passed on to Gentile nations was a temporal form of God's Kingdom, a Christian theocracy. Israel failed that, but is destined to eventually get it, when the Gentiles have had their own opportunity. We will fail, as well.

This quote simply speaks of a transference from the nation Israel to the Roman nation--it does not limit the Church to just the Roman nation!

We know from Daniel 7 that the Roman Kingdom would eventually be divided up into at least 10 nations. To think that the transfer to a single nation means we should spiritualize the meaning of "nation" is absurd.

This initial transfer to the Roman nation was just the start of the Gospel mission to "all nations." The idea was the transfer of the *political rule* of the Kingdom, a Christian rule over society, or what I call a "Christian Theocracy."

Christian nations have existed since the time that the Roman Empire was Christianized under Theodosius. And since that time we've had Christian France, Christian Germany, Christian Scandinavia, and in the East Christian Byzantium, and many Slavic Christian nations.

They were not all designed to be called a single "nation," comprising all of them! You're definitely reading this into a single verse. And on its face it is indeed absurd. But you're welcome to your own personal theological speculations.

There is no such thing in the New Testament as Christian nations. That is your own theory that you have taken from Wikipedia. There is just one unitary spiritual nation – the Israel of God, that God spiritually reigns over today. You have no answer for the clear scriptures that I have already presented. You've skipped around each of them. You have to!

Jews and Gentiles today are grafted into this Israeli tree by faith in Christ – who is ultimately true Israel. The New Testament Church today being one with Christ is therefore also true Israel. They have been integrated into believing Israel and have been enjoined to all the elect of the Old Testament era. As a prince they have indeed spiritual power with God and with men, and have prevailed. So, God does not have a separate plan for national Israel outside of the Church. Every Jew and Gentile who trusts in the Lord Jesus are God’s elect or faithful Israel

Just like the Gentiles who came to faith in Israel’s God in the Old Testament sealed that commitment through physical circumcision, which in turn qualified them to be considered natural Israelis, so, in the New Testament those who come to faith in Israel’s God do so through spiritual circumcision, which allows them to experience all the spiritual benefits and blessings that attend being faithful Israel.

We all know that the natural branches of any tree are obviously synonymous with the natural tree itself. For example: an oak tree is not going to have birch branches. Oak trees have oak branches. Birch trees have birch branches. The natural branches of an olive tree can only be olive branches. Scripture depicts the good olive tree as an Israeli tree. Again, speaking about Israelites, he talks about “the natural branches” being “graffed into their own olive tree” (Romans 11:24).

The New Testament depicts the New Testament Church as a continuation of faithful Israel. The Greek word interpreted “partakest” here is sugkoinonos which literally means co-participant. The Gentile believer is a co-participant with the Jewish believer in this spiritual organism. This couldn’t be any more inclusive. A people that were once alien to the “citizenship of Israel” have now been “graffed in among them” and (significantly) “with them partakest of the root and fatness [or oiliness] of the olive tree” (Romans 11:17).