Another Premillennial absurdity

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Timtofly

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Jesus said the sheep will inherit "eternal life" in "the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matt 25:34,46). That is what you call being in torment? And since when does "eternal life" equate to 1,000 years? :jest::Laughingoutloud:
It will be torment because you claim it does not even exist. It will be a test of endurance because those 1,000 years will seem like eternity to you without ever ending. I doubt you will enjoy a life you have denied will happen.

If not on earth, were you thinking of a place on the moon? It will be eternal life on the earth, no?
 

Truth7t7

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I don't find it ridiculous at all! But it's your prerogative to believe whatever you choose to believe. Some of this is semantics. In the language I use, which I hope is biblical, the unregenerate person can indeed operate in the power of Christ. Judas Iscariot is one example. The author of Hebrews also indicate that people sometimes leave the faith after having known God and after having experienced His power.

I've personally known people who embraced Christ as Lord on a temporary basis. It truly looked like a life decision, and to some degree it was. But it devolved into an "appearance" game, with application to God's power when it suited the person, and not only when God led.

I believe we must call people in church "the Church," even though we know many there are only "half way there," in terms of Salvation. It is only honorable to give them a chance to start, to grow, and to endure.

We must call Christian nations "Christian nations," if that is the intention of the people to as a majority adopt the Christian faith and Christian morality for the people of that nation. But it certainly doesn't mean every citizen of a Christian State will be sincere or will last.

Heb 6.4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.

What this appears to be saying is that when people come to a full knowledge of Christ as Savior and Lord they don't always confirm that decision by making a complete transition to Christianity. They accept the blessings, the power, and the love of Christ, but they don't completely submit to the lordship of Christ.

And so, when they turn away from that, from all that they know about Christ, what on earth can bring them back? They've already rejected all that Christ is--his love, and his offer of eternal fellowship with him. If they don't like that, then they never will!

And so, yes, I believe the Bible teaches that unregenerate people can know God and Christ, and experience His power. God is impartial, and when people meet certain conditions He blesses them with His presence and prosperity.

But it is the choice of people to make a complete transition or not. Until they've completed their decision, we should allow them the dignity of being called a "Christian," in my opinion. Otherwise, we will be driving them away.

I think the problem here is that some Christians--perhaps many, equate "regeneration" with experiencing the power of God, or verbal acknowledgment that Christ is Savior and Lord. I don't believe that to be the case personally.

We can experience God's power *before* regeneration. Regeneration happens only when there is a *complete* commitment to Christ as Savior and Lord. Only God knows when that commitment rises to the level of a "regeneration" experience.
No such thing as "Christian Nations" in this present world as you claim

Add to that your false claim in "National Salvation For Israel", claims found no place in scripture

Randy nobody is buying your product, your trying to sell ice in the North Pole in the middle of winter

Jesus Is The Lord
 
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WPM

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It will be torment because you claim it does not even exist. It will be a test of endurance because those 1,000 years will seem like eternity to you without ever ending. I doubt you will enjoy a life you have denied will happen.

If not on earth, were you thinking of a place on the moon? It will be eternal life on the earth, no?

Your millennium is just as what I have been describing it for years. Thanks for finally admitting it. The wicked overrun your millennium as the sand of the sea. Those who you deem “the goats,” “them on the left hand” are indeed “cursed.” This millennium you have tried unsuccessfully over the years to portray in a beautiful light is indeed a dark debacle. It is full of wicked sinners. Thank God it will never happen. You recognize it a “everlasting fire” and all who enter it experience “everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46).
 
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Randy Kluth

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No such thing as "Christian Nations" in this present world as you claim

Add to that your false claim in "National Salvation For Israel", claims found no place in scripture

Randy nobody is buying your product, your trying to sell ice in the North Pole in the middle of winter

Jesus Is The Lord
You're immature. I was giving you an opportunity to have a serious discussion. This is why I'm not interested...
 

covenantee

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First, thanks for sharing your position. I do recognize it as a respectable, Christian position, even though I don't fully agree with it.
Thanks as well for your perspective, although I cannot find Scriptural support for it.
As faulty as Man is, and as faulty, therefore, as nations are, Christianity still has had a positive effect on nations, from the Roman Empire to the many European nations who were somewhat "tamed" by it. I don't think you could say that the European nations would've been better off as Pagan Nations?
That's an interesting question. However, while persecuted, the true NT Church still flourished under pagan Rome; but its candle was burning very dim and low by the time of the Reformation, having suffered centuries of savage persecution under the institutionalized apostate Roman church, unlike anything that had been experienced previously.

My (admittedly subjective) opinion is that, if all of the evidence were considered, the true Church fared relatively better under paganism than under apostasy.
 
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Truth7t7

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You're immature. I was giving you an opportunity to have a serious discussion. This is why I'm not interested...
You will only be interested when posters agree with your false claims, it's apparent I'm not in agreement
 

WPM

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You will only be interested when posters agree with your false claims, it's apparent I'm not in agreement

You are wasting your time. He doesn't get it. He cannot engage in a Christian manner. All he has is insults and name-calling. That is because he has nothing to bring to the table.
 

Randy Kluth

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You will only be interested when posters agree with your false claims, it's apparent I'm not in agreement
Not true. I have discussions all the time with those I disagree with, and I'm fine with that. But it has to be "discussions"--not just immature quips.

And I've noticed that when there is a group that forms a kind of "doctrinal party," there starts to be this ganging up, or piling on, mentality, with lots of negativity. I'm not interested in that.

1 Cor 1.10 I appeal to you, brothers and sisters, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another in what you say and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be perfectly united in mind and thought.

Gal 5.19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions...
 
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Randy Kluth

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Thanks as well for your perspective, although I cannot find Scriptural support for it.

That's an interesting question. However, while persecuted, the true NT Church still flourished under pagan Rome; but its candle was burning very dim and low by the time of the Reformation, having suffered centuries of savage persecution under the institutionalized apostate Roman church, unlike anything that had been experienced previously.

My (admittedly subjective) opinion is that, if all of the evidence were considered, the true Church fared relatively better under paganism than under apostasy.
That also is an interested question--paganism or apostasy? I think you're probably right. It's better to not have known the way than to know the way and to then deliberately do the wrong thing.

2 Peter 2.21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
 
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Randy Kluth

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Brother, I'm a little slow finished/editing my posts--I don't always do this before I send it. So you might wait about 5 minutes before you reply.

With respect to God's choice to call into being "Christian nations," and the theocracy of Israel in the OT, I believe God wanted the world to *know* the truth, despite the fact they would fall away from it. It was part of His plan to establish the Christian Church in all nations. I don't think God should've gone back on this plan simply because He knew there would be a falling away of Christian nations.

Although I believe God called into existence nominal Christian nations, I don't think that keeping them mixed with half-baked Christians ever has been His ultimate intention. His plan to have this was, I think, just a step in the direction of obtaining true and faithful Christians from all parts of the globe.
 

Truth7t7

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Brother, I'm a little slow finished/editing my posts--I don't always do this before I send it. So you might wait about 5 minutes before you reply.

With respect to God's choice to call into being "Christian nations," and the theocracy of Israel in the OT, I believe God wanted the world to *know* the truth, despite the fact they would fall away from it. It was part of His plan to establish the Christian Church in all nations. I don't think God should've gone back on this plan simply because He knew there would be a falling away of Christian nations.

Although I believe God called into existence nominal Christian nations, I don't think that keeping them mixed with half-baked Christians ever has been His ultimate intention. His plan to have this was, I think, just a step in the direction of obtaining true and faithful Christians from all parts of the globe.
No such thing as "Christian Nations" found in scripture as you falsely claim, no more than false claims in "National Salvation For Israel"

Your trying to sell ice at the North Pole Randy, nobody is buying your product

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Randy Kluth

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No such thing as "Christian Nations" found in scripture as you falsely claim, no more than false claims in "National Salvation For Israel"
Christian nations did not yet exist when the Bible was written! ;) But of course, you knew that.
 

CadyandZoe

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You seem to think that any disagreement is an attack. I think you might be too thin skinned for this, Randy.
The source of Randy's offence isn't disagreement per se; it's the vocabulary used in order to express disagreement. For instance, someone has recently told Randy that his views are a figment of his imagination. Instead of raising a counter argument, we witness attacks of this sort.
 

Truth7t7

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The source of Randy's offence isn't disagreement per se; it's the vocabulary used in order to express disagreement. For instance, someone has recently told Randy that his views are a figment of his imagination. Instead of raising a counter argument, we witness attacks of this sort.
It appears you are part of the I'm tooo sensitive leftist agenda, a claim of "Figment of Imagination" in trying to silence opposition?

Please!

Jesus Is The Lord
 

Randy Kluth

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The source of Randy's offence isn't disagreement per se; it's the vocabulary used in order to express disagreement. For instance, someone has recently told Randy that his views are a figment of his imagination. Instead of raising a counter argument, we witness attacks of this sort.
Yes, a normal defense doesn't work with a group attacking with a "party spirit." Unity in Christ is being sacrificed to ensure there is agreement in the group to prove they are "right," and to ensure their doctrine remains unchallenged.

I like the distinction you're making between "language disagreements" and "hostility." I can be as guilty as the next guy in "getting loud" to make my point. I let down my guard and capitulate to a kind of argument that is at least partly carnal.

So why can't we dispense with these kinds of insulting exchanges? The Apostle Paul ran into this, and said that all we can do is warn brothers and sisters that "division" isn't spiritual. But Paul also admitted that some aren't going to "get it," and we will have to let them be.

My prayer, of course, is that we all take the right course, and insist on spiritual unity, despite the inevitable disagreements. We must not make these belief systems so important that they become idols.
 
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