Calculating the Rapture? 7 Factors to Consider

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ewq1938

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What's this?

Lots of things.



The tribulation is over before the sixth seal is opened.


The trib doesn't even start until after all the seals have been opened and the 6th trump sounds.


No seal has been opened.

All the seals were opened.


The great tribulation is over before any trumpets sound. The trumpets are the wrath of God

No, only the 7th trump is the wrath of God and that's when the vials pour.


The 7th trumpet is the end of the wrath of God.

The bible says the wrath of God begins at the 7th trump.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here it clearly states that God's wrath has come (arrives) after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.
 

Ronald D Milam

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No, and what so-called "Trumpet Judgments"? You are obviously confused. The Vials are when God's wrath upon the beast and the wicked are poured out.
All of the Judgments come forth from the 7 Trumps. That is why Rev. 10 says that when the 7 Thunders sound time [as we know it] will be no more. Why was it bitter and sweet? Because it brings billions of deaths, and because it brings forth Jesus' 1000 year reign which ushers in everlasting righteousness.

So, Trumps 1-4 begin God's Wrath, we see then in Rev. 8:13 that an angel proclaims Woe, Woe, Woe, and says the sounding of the last three Trumps bring the Three Woes, do you get that part? Trump #5 is therefore the first woe, Trump #6 is the 2nd Woe. Thus Trump #7 is the third woe, and we therefore understand the last woe is ALL 7 Vials in total. The 7 Vials COMPLETE God's Wrath. Rev. 9:20 states very clearly that those who have the Mark of the Beast are killed by the "Plagues of God". The Asteroid Impact kills many also, do you think the Asteroid Impact in Rev. 8 is not God's wrath? That makes no sense, once again brother you take one scripture and run with a bad phraseology. Rev. 15 says the Wrath of God is filled up or completed by the 7 Vials.

The time of Christ's Olivet discourse Signs of the End follow the Seals of Revelation 6. The only Sign that will serve as a Judgment upon the beast and his followers is the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial timing. It is the 6th Seal and 7th Vial that specifically is about God's cup of Wrath poured out on the wicked on the last day of this world.
This is just not factual, once again this is bad eschatology passed down by men, many men at that, all thinking they can see the 70th week in there without thinking it through. The 6th Seal is Prophetic, it DOES NOTHING, its just like the Joel 2:31 Prophecy, it points to a FUTURE EVENT. It is very strange that people can not understand what a Sealed Scroll is, it can not be opened and read until ALL 7 Seals are taken off. The 7 Trumpets contain all of the Wrath of God, the 7 Vials are the 7th Trump in total and the 3rd Woe also. Rev. 8:13 tells us that if we will just listen.

Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So, the Three Trumps that are left, Trumps 5, 6 and 7 are the Three Woes, thus Trump 1 and 2 are seen in Rev. 9 and Trump 3 has to be in Rev. 16, the 7 Vias are the 3rd Woe.

The events Jesus gave in Matthew 24 & Mark 13 cover from the time just prior to the "great tribulation", and then the "great tribulation" that begins with the AOD setup, and then events that cover the tribulation all the way up to the day of Christ's future return and gathering of His saints immediately after that tribulation. The Trumpet timing equivalent to the tribulation timing is the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe. Christ comes on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe.
No, ONLY Matt. 24:20-31 covers the Greatest Ever Troubles, verses 15-19 cover the first part of the 70th week, really the 1290 , which is where the Jews who repent flee Judea. Verses 4-6 are about 70 AD only, and verses 7-14 are about the Church Age in general, BUT MOSTLY about the Disciples and a guideline of how survive amidst 70 AD and they are told about false prophets (of Zeus, Jupiter etc. etc.) who will eventually kill them because they are bringing the Gospel unto the masses and turning the Western Civilization into a place where eventually these demi gods were forsaken over time. Which is why we had a renaissance in the Western World and forsook those demi gods for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Amen. We are now falling back into the same demi gods, read Jonathan Cahn's "Return of the gods" or just watch a couple of Youtube clips, its some very good information. Yes we the Church return with Jesus via the THEN.........Not via the IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation, that is speaking of the Sun & Moon going dark, you seem however to conflate the two.

Finish later, got to take my dog to the vet.
 
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Davy

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None of that is right. Jesus returns at the 7thn trump, not the 6th seal. The 6th seal only describes the 7th trump return.

The trib doesn't even start until the 6th trump. By then all the seals were opened long ago and the first 5 trumps have sounded. The 6th trump is the GT, and the 7th is the second coming which is when the wrath of God begins, Rev 11.
I have to differ with you, the 6th Seal is describing the "day of the Lord" event with Christ's coming and His cup of Wrath being poured out, and the wicked on earth wanting to hide from His, seeing even The Father sitting upon His Throne, which points to Rev.1 about every eye is to see Christ coming in the clouds.

The 7th Seal has a pause, a selah like the Psalms, and usually in the Psalms a selah means to pause and consider what was just said (like the 6th Seal events).

Thus the 6th Seal is the same timing as the 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. The 7th Seal merely acts as a pause of separation before John was shown about the Trumpets in Rev.8. The Rev.7 chapter is parenthetical, because it is declaring God's servants that are 'sealed' with His seal in order to make a stand during the great tribulation.
 

Davy

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That is true, BUT.............there are different segments via each. For instance Matt. 24 speaks about the 70th week in some verses, about the Church Age in some verses and about 70 AD in some verses. So, I assume they all speak about these same three things since they all refer to Jesus' Olivet Discourse. In Matt. 24:4-6 we see the 70 AD verses, in verses 7-14 we see the Church Age verses even though it is mainly telling the Disciples how to survive, the Church Age verses is to instill in them what has to come before the end comes. Thus as Jesus says in verses 4-6 the End (70th week) is by and by or later on....
All... of the Signs Jesus gave in Matthew 24 (and Mark 13), are about the final "one week" (70th) of Daniel 9.

And there is no such thing written in God's Word about your "Church Age" theory. That idea was devised by John Darby in 1830s Britain, who also first preached a false Pre-trib Rapture theory then too. Each of the 7 Messages Jesus gave in Revelation 2 & 3 still APPLY TODAY for ALL Churches. Those Messages are our 'measure' for what each Church today is following.

Christ's Olivet discourse is about the same SEVEN SIGNS of the END given in His Book of Revelation. This is why a parallel study can be done with Revelation 6 about the Seals in conjunction with Christ's Olivet discourse. The 7 Signs are the 21 events given in the Revelation Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. The FINAL SIGN Jesus gave was His return on the last day of this world as the LAST Sign. That is how it is laid out in His Olivet discourse also.

So your vain attempt to try and ADD different timings to His Olivet discourse reveals the false doctrines you are trying to push here.
 

Davy

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No it doesn't if you are saying at the 1260, yes its in the MIDST of the week but not in the exact middle of the week, we know this by reading Daniel 12 brother. ...
The placing of the "abomination of desolation" DOES happen in the 'middle' of the symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27. There is NO OTHER WAY TO READ THAT SCRIPTURE.

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:
and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
KJV

Dan 9:27
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week:
and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.
Douay-Rheims

Dan 9:27
27 The ruler will make a treaty with the people for a period of one set of seven,
but after half this time, he will put an end to the sacrifices and offerings. And as a climax to all his terrible deeds, he will set up a sacrilegious object that causes desecration, until the fate decreed for this defiler is finally poured out on him."
Holy Bible, New Living Translation ®, copyright © 1996, 2004 by Tyndale Charitable Trust. Used by permission of Tyndale House Publishers. All rights reserved.

Dan 9:27
27 "'Then for one seven, he will forge many and strong alliances,
but halfway through the seven he will banish worship and prayers. At the place of worship, a desecrating obscenity will be set up and remain until finally the desecrator himself is decisively destroyed.'"
(from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.)


So why do you represent a lie from men's doctrines about that middle of the "one week" of Daniel 9:27? It is clearly written, so WHY do you seek to CHANGE what is written there?
 

Ronald D Milam

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No, and what so-called "Trumpet Judgments"? You are obviously confused. The Vials are when God's wrath upon the beast and the wicked are poured out.
All of the Judgments come forth from the 7 Trumps. That is why Rev. 10 says the 7 Thunders sound time [as we know it] will be no more. Wy was it bitter and sweet? Because it brings billions of deaths, and because it brings forth Jesus' 1000 year reign which ushers in everlasting righteousness.

So, Trumps 1-4 begin God's Wrath, we see then in Rev. 8:13 that an angel proclaims Woe, Woe, Woe, and says the sounding of the last three Trumps bring the Three Woes. do you get that? Trump #5 is therefore the first woe, Trump #6 is the 2nd Woe. Thus Trump #7 is the third woe, and we therefore understand the last woe is ALL 7 Vials in total. The 7 Vials COMPLETE God's Wrath. Rev. 9:20 states very clearly that those who have the Mark of the Beast are killed by the "Plagues of God". The Asteroid Impact kills many also, do you think the Asteroid Impact in Rev. 8 is not God's wrath? That makes no sense, once again brother you take one scripture and run with a bad phraseology. Rev. 15 says the Wrath of God is filled up or completed by the 7 Vials.

The time of Christ's Olivet discourse Signs of the End follow the Seals of Revelation 6.
This is just not factual, once again this is bad eschatology passed down by men, many men at that, all thinking they can see the 70th week in there without thinking it through. The 6th Seal is Prophetic, it DOES NOTHING, its just like the Joel 2:31 Prophecy, it points to a FUTURE EVENT. It is very strange tat people can not understand what a Sealed Scroll is, it can not be opened and read until ALL 7 Seals are taken off. The 7 Trumpets contain all of the Wrath of God, the 7 Vials are the 7th Trump. Rev. 8:13 tells us that of we will just listen.

Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So, the Three Trumps that are left, Trumps 5, 6 and 7 are the Three Woes, thus Trump 1 and 2 are in Rev. 9 and Trump 3 has to be in Rev. 16, the 7 Vias are the 3rd Woe.

The events Jesus gave in Matthew 24 & Mark 13
No, ONLY Matt. 24:20-31 cover the Greatest Ever Troubles, verses 15-19 cover the first part of the 70th week, really the 1290 , which is where the Jews who repented flee Judea. Verses 4-6 are about 70 AD only, and verses 7-14 are about the Church Age in general, BUT MOSTLY about the Disciples and a guideline of how survive amidst 70 AD and they are told about false prophets (of Zeus, Jupiter etc. etc.) who will eventually kill them because they are bringing the Gospel unto the masses and turning the Western Civilization into a place where eventually these demi gods were forsaken over time. Which is why we had a renaissance in the Western World and forsook those demi gods for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Amen. We are now falling back into the same demi gods, read Jonathan Chan's "Return of the gods" or just watch a couple of Youtube clips, its some very good information. Yes we the Church return with Jesus via the THEN.........Not via the IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation, that is speaking of the Sun & Moon going dark, you conflate the two.

Finish later, got to take my dog to the vet.
Well no... your claim that Mark 13:25-27 matches your 4th Trumpet claim does NOT match.
Above I am saying you confuse ands conflate different verses even between Mark and Matthew. However that changes nothing, the place on both where the Sun ad Moon goes dark is indeed Rev. 8's 4rth Trump, this is 100 percent factual. This is my bag brother, my calling, when you get to heaven you will be like, that guy had all the answers and I refused to heed them. It is what it is.

Mark 13:25-27 matches the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe when Jesus comes. So why are you denying the Mark 13:26 verse which shows Jesus coming in the clouds?
The Sun and Moon goes dark when the Asteroid first hits. Not at the 7th Vial when Jesus shows up. Not understanding the Raptures timing will get one off-kilter a wee bit.

I agree that Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 are both the same timing and events. But both of those Chapters have other direct parallels also. They're just two different versions of Jesus' declarations while on the Mount of Olives. And just like the Four Gospels, each one may contain small bits between each other that differs. For example, the gathering origin point is different between the Matthew 24:31 verse and the Mark 13:27 verse. One version is about the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him when He comes in the clouds, and the other version is about the saints still alive on earth being gathered. Apostle Paul followed the same gathering distinctions in 1 Thessalonians 4.

The point is you and others assume these are mostly about the 70th week troubles, they are not. Certain parts are, certain parts are about 70AD, certain parts are about the Church Age, certain parts about the 1290 and fleeing Judea, certain portions about the 70th week/Jacobs Troubles and finally only one or two verses are about Jesus Second Coming, and we the Church return with Jesus. They are all the same, men have different viewpoints, ever see the movie Vantage Point? The Gospels are the same but the Death of Jesus is recorded differently, because they each stood in different places viewing these events, some retold what they heard etc. etc.

Thess. 4 is Pre Trib. as is 1 Col. 15.

When Lord Jesus died on His cross, the daytime turned dark then also, but it wasn't because of an asteroid.
That has zero to do with the Day of the Lord. The Temple was rent, the storms came. That is not what happens at the DOTL, and Asteroid hits.

So I think you go too far in your speculation. In the Books of God's prophets, especially Isaiah, we are shown on that "day of the Lord" God's destruction of this present world will be at an 'instant'. What you are describing is like idea out of a National Geographic magazine which is often passed off as real science when it is not (yes I tend to challenge the status quo).
 

Ronald D Milam

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Nope, Jesus reigns a 1000 years, you take Peters verses about the earths elements melting, but fail to Understand the Day of the Lord is a WIDE SWATH of things, not only Wrath, but why does the Judgement and Wrath come? So, Jesus can take back over Dominion of the Earth from Satan who tricked Adam & Eve out of the Dominion God gave them over the earth. Thus Jesus sets up his 1000 year reign in Jerusalem, thus his reign can be Juxtaposed against Satan's 6000 years on earth, that thus will condemn Satan at the Second Resurrection. The Day of the Lord is Jesus taking over, the Wrath of the Lamb falls, then he reigns for 1000 years, THEN this whole worlds elements will melt by fire. (this earth is hell, most do not understand that, in a twist, God gives Satan his prize, but it is on fire.

I don't have it wrong, as YOU say. I am following the Scripture as written.
Well, you are wrong on this, the Sun and Moon go dark via the Asteroid, then 1260 some odd dats later Jesus shows up,. JUST LIKE Zech. 14:1-2.............JUMPS 1260 DAYS to Zech. 14:3-4.

Nah... you are ADDING to the Scripture.

Those Zechariah 14:1 thru 5 events occur within the SAME timeframe. Verse 1 is merely giving a summary of what will happen.
NO, they do not, Jesus DOES NOT EVER LOSE a fight at his Second Coming, get real now!! (cornered)

The "day of the Lord" timing IS... the LAST DAY of this present world, and is the 'day' when Jesus comes in the cloud to gather His faithful Church. And that happens IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. It is what actually ENDS... the "great tribulation".
No one thinks this way, go read everything that happens on the DOTL, it is NOT POSSIBLE for everything in the DOTL to happen in even a year, much less one day.

The gathering of the nations to surround Jerusalem is NOT the "day of the Lord" time. It is just PRIOR to the "day of the Lord" events. We are given the SAME order of events in Revelation 16...
No, reread verse 1 the DOTL comes. Dont try to bend things to fit brother. You get off-tracked that way.

Both Apostles Paul and Peter taught that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night".
As did Jesus, but what you fail to see is how that is meant. If you miss the Rapture, you will be in the DOTL, even though it will be 1260 days away, it is upon you, just like when the Rain came, they did not understand in a few dats they would all die. When you miss the Pre Trib Rapture, the DOTL is UPON YOU ALREADY, (unless you die) people just do not understand that point.

Then He describes the gathering of the nations against Jerusalem with that Armageddon idea. That gathering event on the last day is also declared in Zephaniah 3:8 which links the time of God's consuming fire on that SAME "day of the Lord". Then on the 7th Vial, God's cup of Wrath upon those armies, and the wicked, is poured out on the "day of the Lord".
Yes, the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, then 1260 days later Jesus shows up. Just like in verses 2-3.

Even Apostle Peter in 2 Peter 3:10 declared God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth on that "day of the Lord" that he also said comes "as a thief in the night".
Yes, the DOTL lasts 2.5 years PLUS 1000 years. It means Jesus TAKES OVER. (The Lord) It's that simple tbh.

Then on the 7th Vial, God's cup of Wrath upon those armies, and the wicked, is poured out on the "day of the Lord".
The 7th Vial ends the 3rd Woe. Jesus takes over.

Thus the "day of the Lord" destruction will be a SURPRISE EVENT
Yes, once you miss the Pre Trib Rapture those will have a HUGE SURPRISE, for sure.
 

No Pre-TB

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Yes, once you miss the Pre Trib Rapture those will have a HUGE SURPRISE, for sure.
agree! Those who miss the Pre-TB rapture will be surprised. Surprised that it didn’t exist and will be caught unprepared for what comes which requires the patience of the saints.
 
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Truth7t7

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Thus Jesus sets up his 1000 year reign in Jerusalem
Your claim is "False"

Many claim Jesus will literally return and rule "On This Earth" In A Millennium this being false in deception

Jesus warned his followers against this teaching, Jesus wont be found anywhere upon this earth as many claim

The Antichrist will be in Jerusalem, claiming to be Messiah Returned, "Beware"!

"Believe It Not" "Go Not Forth"

Matthew 24:23-27KJV
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Revelation 13:13-14KJV
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Revelation 19:20KJV
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 

Ronald D Milam

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No, and what so-called "Trumpet Judgments"? You are obviously confused. The Vials are when God's wrath upon the beast and the wicked are poured out.
All of the Judgments come forth from the 7 Trumps. That is why Rev. 10 says the 7 Thunders sound time [as we know it] will be no more. Wy was it bitter and sweet? Because it brings billions of deaths, and because it brings forth Jesus' 1000 year reign which ushers in everlasting righteousness.

So, Trumps 1-4 begin God's Wrath, we see then in Rev. 8:13 that an angel proclaims Woe, Woe, Woe, and says the sounding of the last three Trumps bring the Three Woes. do you get that? Trump #5 is therefore the first woe, Trump #6 is the 2nd Woe. Thus Trump #7 is the third woe, and we therefore understand the last woe is ALL 7 Vials in total. The 7 Vials COMPLETE God's Wrath. Rev. 9:20 states very clearly that those who have the Mark of the Beast are killed by the "Plagues of God". The Asteroid Impact kills many also, do you think the Asteroid Impact in Rev. 8 is not God's wrath? That makes no sense, once again brother you take one scripture and run with a bad phraseology. Rev. 15 says the Wrath of God is filled up or completed by the 7 Vials.

The time of Christ's Olivet discourse Signs of the End follow the Seals of Revelation 6. The only Sign that will serve as a Judgment upon the beast and his followers is the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial timing. It is the 6th Seal and 7th Vial that specifically is about God's cup of Wrath poured out on the wicked on the last day of this world.
This is just not factual, once again this is bad eschatology passed down by men, many men at that, all thinking they can see the 70th week in there without thinking it through. The 6th Seal is Prophetic, it DOES NOTHING, its just like the Joel 2:31 Prophecy, it points to a FUTURE EVENT. It is very strange tat people can not understand what a Sealed Scroll is, it can not be opened and read until ALL 7 Seals are taken off. The 7 Trumpets contain all of the Wrath of God, the 7 Vials are the 7th Trump. Rev. 8:13 tells us that of we will just listen.

Rev. 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!

So, the Three Trumps that are left, Trumps 5, 6 and 7 are the Three Woes, thus Trump 1 and 2 are in Rev. 9 and Trump 3 has to be in Rev. 16, the 7 Vias are the 3rd Woe.

The events Jesus gave in Matthew 24 & Mark 13 cover from the time just prior to the "great tribulation", and then the "great tribulation" that begins with the AOD setup, and then events that cover the tribulation all the way up to the day of Christ's future return and gathering of His saints immediately after that tribulation. The Trumpet timing equivalent to the tribulation timing is the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe. Christ comes on the 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe.
No, ONLY Matt. 24:20-31 cover the Greatest Ever Troubles, verses 15-19 cover the first part of the 70th week, really the 1290 , which is where the Jews who repented flee Judea. Verses 4-6 are about 70 AD only, and verses 7-14 are about the Church Age in general, BUT MOSTLY about the Disciples and a guideline of how survive amidst 70 AD and they are told about false prophets (of Zeus, Jupiter etc. etc.) who will eventually kill them because they are bringing the Gospel unto the masses and turning the Western Civilization into a place where eventually these demi gods were forsaken over time. Which is why we had a renaissance in the Western World and forsook those demi gods for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Amen. We are now falling back into the same demi gods, read Jonathan Chan's "Return of the gods" or just watch a couple of Youtube clips, its some very good information. Yes we the Church return with Jesus via the THEN.........Not via the IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation, that is speaking of the Sun & Moon going dark, you conflate the two.

Finish later, got to take my dog to the vet.
None of that is right. Jesus returns at the 7thn trump, not the 6th seal. The 6th seal only describes the 7th trump return.

The trib doesn't even start until the 6th trump. By then all the seals were opened long ago and the first 5 trumps have sounded. The 6th trump is the GT, and the 7th is the second coming which is when the wrath of God begins, Rev 11.
I was going to like the point about the 7th Trump then you stated the trib (TROUBLES) start on the 6th Trump. So what is the Asteroid Impact via Trump #2, the fires via Trump #1, the Trump 3 and 4 fallout of poison abd sun and moon getting dark if not troubles? What is Woe #1 and #2 if not troubles?
 

No Pre-TB

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The 6th Seal is Prophetic, it DOES NOTHING,
It does nothing? Then why did God cause John to write it? Yes, it’s a seal. Yes, it seals the contents of the scroll. But it does and explains much!
Without the 6th seal, it’s impossible to open the scroll, have God to rise, removal of the heavens to make way for new heavens, to demonstrate his majesty and bring other scripture to life:
The sun to darkness, the moon to blood before the Day of the Lord
Giving the reader direction the DotL does not precede the 6th seal.
It does nothing? No, It does everything! It is a major prerequisite to the resurrection of the dead and harpazo.
So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
 

No Pre-TB

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So what is the Asteroid Impact via Trump #2,
When does “oros” identify as an asteroid?
If a literal mountain (oros) fell into a literal sea, it would kill people. Ships are destroyed, a third of the sea life dies and their blood is in the sea. Yet no man dies….how odd!
 

Truth7t7

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When does “oros” identify as an asteroid?
If a literal mountain (oros) fell into a literal sea, it would kill people. Ships are destroyed, a third of the sea life dies and their blood is in the sea. Yet no man dies….how odd!
Do you believe the waters in Egypt actually became undrinkable as scripture describes below?

Exodus 7:19-20KJV
19 And the Lord spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone.
20 And Moses and Aaron did so, as the Lord commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood.
 

No Pre-TB

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Do you believe the waters in Egypt actually became undrinkable as scripture describes below?
I’d rather have my question answered by him.

When does “oros” identify as an asteroid?
If a literal mountain (oros) fell into a literal sea, it would kill people. Ships are destroyed, a third of the sea life dies and their blood is in the sea. Yet no man dies….how odd!
 

Ronald D Milam

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Of course He returns at the 7th trumpet.
7th Vial, which is the end of the 3rd Woe which STARTS via the 7th Trump. So, yes it comes the 7th Trump, but its more than that in full, its the 7th Trump, the 3rd Woe AND the 7th Vial.

What's this?

Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
This is the PRE TRIB RAPTURE, via a FLASHBACK. This is the Harvest Chapter, so you have to put all of the Harvests in here, the 144,000 (3.5-5 million Jews who repent/the Wheat) the wicked Grapes placed in the Wine-press of God's Wrath in verses 17-20 AND the Pre Trib Rapture in verse 14, Jesus from upon a cloud raptures the Church.

The tribulation is over before the sixth seal is opened.
The troubles start at the 1st Trump. The Seals DO NOTHING. You will never ever grasp this until you get to heaven, tunnel vision brother.

The 7th trumpet is the end of the wrath of God.
You of course are looking in the wrong place, yes the 7th Trump BRINGS VICTORY, but just like we see the 2nd Woe mentioned in Rev. 11 but get the DETAILS in Rev. 9, likewise we get the MENTION of the 3rd Woe and 7th Trump to come "SHORTLY" in Rev. 11 but we get the DETAILS in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, which starts via the 7th p. When you finally understand that Rev. 7 is one of 6 or 7 Revelation chapters that are Parenthetic Citation Chapters, then and only then may you see the overall big picture.
No seal has been opened.

The Seals DO NOTHING, why does this not penetrate you mind sir? A SEALED SCROLL can not be read until ALL 7 Seals are taken off. You can understand a closet door can not be looked into until 7 locks are taken off, (I assume) and even when 6 locks are off the closet still can not be opened, yet you refuse to admit this is what Jesus is doing via the 7 Seals, even though we all know a kings message with 2 seals kept the message safe, with one seal off the message was still safe, with 2 off it was still safe !! The number 7 being used tells us the Scroll is DIVINLY SEALED until all 7 Seals are taken off. It is a no brainer to be honest.
The great tribulation is over before any trumpets sound. The trumpets are the wrath of God
You just will never get that Seal #6 is Prophetic in Nature.

The 7th trumpet is the end of the wrath of God.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Christ has returned. ARMAGEDDON IS OVER.
Rev. 11 the 7th Trump WILL BRING VICTORY, the 7th Via in Rev. 16:19 ENDS the 7th Trump and 3rd Woe and thus is the SAME VICTORY. Rev. 14:17-20 is the SAME VICTORY it also sees God place the Wicked in God Wine-press just like Rev. 16:19. Last but not least Rev. 19:16-20 is the EXACT SAME THING, Armageddon is the Marriage Supper. Jesus shows up The book of Revelation is indeed not in Chronological Order.
 

No Pre-TB

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This is the PRE TRIB RAPTURE, via a FLASHBACK. This is the Harvest Chapter,
What?
Did you even notice Christ wearing a crown? It symbolizes his majesty. This is the moment of his manifestation when the Kingdom is his and he begins to reign; aka the 7th Trumpet. You’d know that based upon the previous verses detailing: Fear God, Babylon Falls followed by the mark. In perspective, it shows a pattern of events within the Trumpets. Pre-TB flashback? Come on. Let’s not make things up as we go.

having on his head a golden crown; as an ensign of royal majesty, showing that his kingdom was now come, the time for him to reign
 

ewq1938

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You just will never get that Seal #6 is Prophetic in Nature.

Most people seem unable to see that. Making it an event happening at the time it's unsealed causes massive issues in chronology and contradictions with other scriptures. Namely, Christ doesn't leave heaven to participate in the 6th seal "event" which should make everyone realize it is a prophecy not a real time event happening right then and there.
 
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The Light

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This is the PRE TRIB RAPTURE, via a FLASHBACK.
No sir. It is the second harvest which occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God. Gods people are not appointed to wrath.
This is the Harvest Chapter, so you have to put all of the Harvests in here, the 144,000 (3.5-5 million Jews who repent/the Wheat)
Why can't you just accept what is written. John goes to a lot of trouble to tell you the 144,000 are 12,000 from each tribe. Can't you just accept that? They are the first fruits of the second harvest. The Gentiles will be the 1st harvest. We don't need to figure out who the 144,00.0 are as we are told who they are.

the wicked Grapes placed in the Wine-press of God's Wrath in verses 17-20 AND the Pre Trib Rapture in verse 14, Jesus from upon a cloud raptures the Church.
Nothing in those verses have to do with the pretrib rapture. Jesus will be visible in the clouds in the rapture of Revelation 14 which happens at the 6th seal, which happens with the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24
The troubles start at the 1st Trump. The Seals DO NOTHING. You will never ever grasp this until you get to heaven, tunnel vision brother.
The seals are the entire tribulation period. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth
, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

I have no idea whatsoever why you can't see this. The tribulation is over at the 6th seal.
 

Ronald D Milam

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All... of the Signs Jesus gave in Matthew 24 (and Mark 13), are about the final "one week" (70th) of Daniel 9.
No they are not, this is so easy to understand, but you will only have a chance at seeing it if you step back from your preconceived notion and think on it with an open mind. Let me show you why the very first portion can only be 70 AD. The 70 AD events look a lot like the end time conquering by the Anti-Christ, hence the Pharisees, who were learned men, actually thought that was the end times and the Messiah was going to save them from the Fourth Beast (Rome). Psstt, the Kingdom Age could have been ushered in at that time, except Israel never repented, thus the 70th week was put off. God of course foreknew all of this. Now with all of this in mind, lets look at Matt. 24-1-6 and see what was the very first SIGN Jesus told them about, if one doesn't stop to think its easy to miss it because of the wording in the Disciples question. They simply say when shall these things be, which means the Temples Destruction.

Jesus and the Olivet Discourse:

Matt. 24:1
And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. 2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, (1)the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? (Temples Destruction) and (2)what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of (3)the end of the world?

{{{
Notice, the first question is TELL US WHEN THESE THINGS WILL BE? Well Jesus only spoke of the Temples Destruction, but when the Disciples asked the three questions, they asked first about The Temples Destruction (THESE THINGS you just spoke of) and then about Jesus' coming, AND the End of the World. Three questions were asked. }}}

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many (In 70 AD when the Disciples were still alive).
6 And ye (Disciples) shall hear of wars and rumours of wars(66-70 AD): see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

So, Jesus tells his Disciples the Temple will be destroyed. They then ask WHEN will this happen? And also when is your coming and the end of the world? So, Jesus answers the first question first, of course. Don't let men deceive you, many will come in my name (as the Messianic Savior) and shall deceive many This is NOT END TIMES, this is 70 AD, the Pharisees were deceived, they thought (correctly) Rome was the Fourth Beast, thus they saw the 66-70 AD events and thought the Messiah, who they saw as a coming political leader, would save them, this fulfills Jesus' Prophecy in John 5:43, he told the Pharisees that you refuse to accept me who has come in the Fathers name but you (PHARISEES of his time) will accept another who comes in his own name. It is well documented that the Pharisees and Jewish leaders put forth 2 or 3 Messianic types around 70 AD. This is what Jesus was warning about, there will be wars and rumors of wars, but the end IS NOT YET. Or in other words these 70 AD events you see are NOT the 70th week to come, that will be by and by or later on. Why was this so important? Because the Disciples were the leaders of the Church movement to spread the Gospel unto the whole world, if they got deceived, all of Christendom would have been in Jerusalem fighting in 70 AD and they would have all been killed and the Church would have been wiped out !! Now Jesus feels he needs to tell the Disciples their fate and tell them he will not come for many, many years, thus they will not get caught up in the 70 AD events, and they will not fear death because they already know they will all die a Martyr save John. Jesus does not want them becoming another Judas, so he tells them their fate, then says those who endure until the end [of their lives] will be saved. (Paul said we run a Marathon, not a short race)

So, now in verses 7-14 Jesus gives them the Church Age events by telling them what all must come before the Church is raptured or has finished their mission on this earth. Jesus now starts telling them about Nation against Nation (Ethos against Ethos), and Kingdoms vs. Kingdoms to let them know, hey many, many, many wars will come, many, plagues/pestilences of death, many earthquakes, much famine and all of these must get worse and worse like a woman having birth pangs, so in other words, ALL THIS is what I meant by THE END IS NOT YET, it is by and by or later on, and he then tells then in verse 14 a FOOLPROOF way to understand that they will not be in that end time 70th week, and he tells them they (Disciples) will all die a Martyrs death.

Matt. 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: (Disciples)and ye shall be hated of all nations(WHY? see below) for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. {{{Now as per the total Church Age, some of these are the Joseph Smith, and Jim Jones types, but the main message was to the Disciples to get them ready to be Martyrs, so they would not flinch when that moment in time came.}}}

So, the above is not Christian false prophets per se, but this was the Disciples taking the Gospel into these nations who served many, many false gods and demi-gods. There was a clash, these people sacrificed kids to these gods at times, they were perverted like the Greeks and Roman cultures, the Gospel set the Western Civilization free from the darkness that still resides in India, much of the Muslim world, much of the Far East. And this cost the Disciples their lives in the end. A Woman Oracle stood up and made a speech which started the slaughter of the Christians, but we overcame them by our blood. So, the false prophets Jesus warned of were those Zeus and Jupiter type prophets who were very angry that the Gospel was taking away their patrons. Thus they via politics started having them killed. Jesus felt they needed to know they would all grow the Church by becoming Martyrs themselves, so they would not lose their salvation like Judas did. Thus he says those who endure will be saved.

Matt. 24:12 And because iniquity(Sin) shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. (Or HEY, because peoples love of sin, these evil cold people will KILL YOU)

13 But he that shall endure unto the end[of ones life, unlike Judas), the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So, remember verse 6 now? The end is NOT YET ? So now Jesus gives the Disciples a roadmap for when the END COMES !! Only when the Gospel has been preached unto all the Nations, thus they knew India, China and the Scythians (Russia today) had to have the Gospel preached unto them BEFORE the end could come (70th week). So, none of this is the 70th week, that is what THE END means !! He is saying don't think the 70 AD events are THE END, that is LATER ON.........so in verse 14 he clarifies, THE END will only come when the Gospel has been preached in ALL Nations on this earth. He says this after telling the Disciples that they will all die for his names sake and that in order to remain SAVED they must endure until the end, unlike Judas. By telling them this they all had 35-45 years to prepare for this death, thus they would be very, very ready and feel pride in dying for the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Amen. The first 70th week scene is seen in the Matt. 24:15-19 AoD and Jews Fleeing Judea verses.

Verses 4-6 is 70 AD and verses 7-14 are Church Age verses.
 
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Ronald D Milam

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And there is no such thing written in God's Word about your "Church Age" theory. That idea was devised by John Darby in 1830s Britain, who also first preached a false Pre-trib Rapture theory then too. Each of the 7 Messages Jesus gave in Revelation 2 & 3 still APPLY TODAY for ALL Churches. Those Messages are our 'measure' for what each Church today is following.
This came from Paul, go read it. 1 Cor. 15, 2 Thess. 2:3 is the Departure of the Church also. So, do you really mean there is no Church Age or did that slip in there by mistake, because that is a non defensible POV. We are in the Church Age, the 7 Feasts tell of a coming Church Age, but when I explain it you guys refuse to answer the points, WHY? Isaiah says God will call a people he did not know. Paul says when the "Time of the Gentiles" comes full, only then will Israel's blindness be lifted. All one has to do is read Romans chapters 9-11 and it is evident Paul is speaking about God taking the Mantle away from Israel and giving it to the Gentiles, then he says when THIS TIME (Time of the Gentiles comes full), only then will Israel be grafted back in and repent.

The Time of the Gentiles has zero to do with the Anti-Christ conquering Jerusalem, that is wrong think, it is about God CHOOSING the YOUNGER over the ELEDER, that is why Paul mentions Jacob being chosen over Esau in chapter 9, why he references the Potter being the master of the vessels he creates etc. The Time of the Gentiles is about the Church Age Gospel being taken unto the whole world . Here is where you get off-tracked brother, you do not understand that if Israel had repented Jesus would have saved them from Rome in 70 AD and ushered in the Kingdom Age, but they did not, so God turned to the Gentiles to take the Gospel unto the whole world instead and put off the 70th week. Thus when the "Time of the Gentiles" is fulfilled, the 70th week then comes, or THE END as Jesus called it. This refers to the Church Age Gentiles. So, why would Jesus ever preach on a coming Rapture when the Gentiles were never supposed to take Israel's place as taking the Gospel unto the whole world? This is why Jesus said he came only to the Lost Sheep of Israel, just like the Two-witnesses come ONLY to get Israel to repent in Revelation 11:1-3 via the Measuring of the Temple, Altar and ONLY THOSE that worship therein. So, you are looking for something that is only hinted at until Paul was given the chore of taking the Gospel unto the Gentiles. It has to be dug out of the bible, one also has to understand how the TIMING TELLS mandate a Pre Trib Rapture. It is not my fault some people can not see it brother, it is their fault. These are brain locks via tunnel vision. Satan lied to Peter, he never stops lying brother. We see the Pre Trib Raptured Church in heaven Rev. 4, 5 and 7 BEFORE the Seals are ever opened and in Rev. 19 before the even get married unto the Lamb and with Jesus as he returns to Armageddon. And no, no one goes to Heaven before the Pre Trib Rapture, Paul says this in 1 Cor. 15:42-52 and Daniel is told this in Dan. 12:1-2. So, they can only be the Pre Trib Raptured Saints.

The John Darby stuff tbh is funny and annoying also. It reminds me of modern day libs trying to use red herrings to win arguments they are in error on. We can prove that is wrong via other early writings AND via Paul's writings. Its a non sequitur with me tbh. Now if I explain the 7 Feast's will you avoid it? Why not answer these things and learn, instead of dodging them, I have posted it on here multiple tines and all I get are dodges. These things have to be dug out, Jesus never came unto the Gentiles, so we can only get glimpses of the Church Age and Rapture via Prophecy TIMING TELLS in the Old Testament, and via Jesus, Paul explained these things in Letters to his flocks, sadly we only get half of these correspondence letters, not the flocks questions, and Paul had told his flock things thus at times he only gives hints like you remember what I told you, and does not go into details, that is why I say his letters are not like a Prophets "Thus Saith the Lord" writings. 2 Thess. 2 is the Rapture or DEPARTURE of the Church, not a falling away (DEPARTURE) from the Faith which is NEVER MENTIONED one time in the whole chapter, but a Gathering unto Jesus is mentioned, so the only DEPARTURE being spoken about in the chapter is the Church DEPARTING its standing on this earth. Its not even debatable if one simply reads the passage.

Christ's Olivet discourse is about the same SEVEN SIGNS of the END given in His Book of Revelation. This is why a parallel study can be done with Revelation 6 about the Seals in conjunction with Christ's Olivet discourse. The 7 Signs are the 21 events given in the Revelation Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. The FINAL SIGN Jesus gave was His return on the last day of this world as the LAST Sign. That is how it is laid out in His Olivet discourse also.

So your vain attempt to try and ADD different timings to His Olivet discourse reveals the false doctrines you are trying to push here.
As I explained in my other post just above, this is just not the case. And there are 10-12 signs, not 7. Rev. 6 has nothing to do with Matt. 24:1-14, as a matter of fact Rev. 6 is just Jesus Prophesying anyway, the actual events start in Rev. 8. There are 7 Judgment Trumps, not 21. The Seals DO NOTHING, they are Jesus Prophesying as he opened a Sealed Scroll. The 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe which come from the 7th Trump, so ALL JUDGMENTS come forth from 7 Trumps. Jesus' return is not really a sign of his coming, he is just coming. Would you spot me on the corner of Times Square in NYC and says Ron is coming to New York, I saw him, that a sign? No, I would just be in New York. I understand some say there is a sign of him in the air, but I think its wrong think, the 10-12 signs are giving us a clue to when all of these things will happen, Jesus returning is him coming, nit a sign, IMHO. I understand the TIMING TELLS in Matt. 24.