Another Premillennial absurdity

[Randy Kluth]

I agree. We have been giving some of these guys too much credibility for too long, which they do not deserve. It is a waste of time. They are in love with their doctrine, not the truth.

That is no way to discuss different doctrines with one another!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Joining a kibbutz or eating kosher do not qualify anyone as chosen in God's sight.

Only faithfulness and obedience to Him and His Son do that.

You're making the mistake in believing that the end of the OT Law and the failure of Israel under that covenant means that Israel ceased to have recourse to Christ's New Covenant. From the time Jesus died on the cross, his New Covenant was made available to Jews. It's just that the restoration of the Jewish nation will not take place until the 2nd Coming. That's when those who reject Jesus will be cut off from the nation, while the nation itself will convert to Christianity. Just my opinion, brother.

Just keep in mind, if you will, that we've seen the story played out before. When Israel broke their covenant with God under the Law--when they broke it so badly that the covenant itself was temporarily abandoned by God, they appeared to have been lost as a People of God. This was during the Babylonian Captivity.

But miraculously, God restored them as a nation of God, albeit they were a mere vestige of their former selves. It was a nation, but the Kingdom itself had been severely diminished. Their hope began to be focused on the restoration of the Messianic hope, the final monarchy that God promised would completely restore the Kingdom. And this includes the nation of Israel, in my view.

This Jewish Hope remains in effect even though much of the NT is dedicated to assuring the rest of the world that they can have what Israel was given too. Paul maintained that even though Israel has fallen on hard times, while God is gathering more nations, ultimately all will be given deliverance from Satanic oppression at the coming of Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Sounds like "once upon a time" in a bed time story with cookies and chocolate milk, because it's not found in my holy bible

Make sure you wear your bib when you read it then.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If that forming of a nation happened according to Gods will, they would not be alone.
People of all nations, according to his will, find themselves a part of the same nation when they are born again.

Of course, Jeff! That has always been my position, that at the eschaton God will finally achieve "peace on earth," with godly nations ranging from Israel to perhaps even Russia. I've *never* said that God's promise to have godly nations for Abraham means that every citizen in every one of these nations will be born again Christians. God promised Christian nations so that people can get born again as individuals. Pagan nations make this a more difficult process.

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless a person is born again [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified], he cannot [ever] see and experience the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.

1pet 2
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a [special] people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies [the wonderful deeds and virtues and perfections] of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people [at all], but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

As I've said elsewhere, I believe Peter is here talking to Jewish believers, who were indeed called to a future Nation associated with the Messianic Kingdom. This is not to deny other nations from co-participation in this Kingdom. There simply will be many nations participating in the same Kingdom of God, in my view.

 

[Truth7t7]

You're making the mistake in believing that the end of the OT Law and the failure of Israel under that covenant means that Israel ceased to have recourse to Christ's New Covenant. From the time Jesus died on the cross, his New Covenant was made available to Jews. It's just that the restoration of the Jewish nation will not take place until the 2nd Coming. That's when those who reject Jesus will be cut off from the nation, while the nation itself will convert to Christianity. Just my opinion, brother.

Just keep in mind, if you will, that we've seen the story played out before. When Israel broke their covenant with God under the Law--when they broke it so badly that the covenant itself was temporarily abandoned by God, they appeared to have been lost as a People of God. This was during the Babylonian Captivity.

But miraculously, God restored them as a nation of God, albeit they were a mere vestige of their former selves. It was a nation, but the Kingdom itself had been severely diminished. Their hope began to be focused on the restoration of the Messianic hope, the final monarchy that God promised would completely restore the Kingdom. And this includes the nation of Israel, in my view.

This Jewish Hope remains in effect even though much of the NT is dedicated to assuring the rest of the world that they can have what Israel was given too. Paul maintained that even though Israel has fallen on hard times, while God is gathering more nations, ultimately all will be given deliverance from Satanic oppression at the coming of Christ.

More claims without one scripture in support

 

[Truth7t7]

Make sure you wear your bib when you read it then.

Two bibs, your stories are long

 

[CadyandZoe]

You agree? I guess I'll need to reconsider my view on this. I'm kidding (mostly).


I was referring to Romans 11:11-14 in particular. What are you talking about?


How do I not figure? Have you actually read Romans 11:11-14?


What in the world are you even talking about here? He was talking the hardened Israelites of his day and saying that he wanted to make them jealous because of his ministry to the Gentiles and save some of them. When it says "some of them" it's talking about the hardened Israelites of his day. It has to be talking about them because Paul was talking in terms of himself personally helping to lead them to salvation.

What I am trying to get you to see is the distinction between an individual person, considered as a single entity, and a group of people considered together as a single entity. We won't be able to understand Paul's point in Romans 11:11-14 if we fail to maintain that distinction.

Consider Romans 10:21 for instance.

But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”​

Here Paul speaks of "Israel" in general terms, whereby he considers all of his kinsmen taken together as a single entity. The single entity known as "Israel" is a disobedient and obstinate people. Never mind that one might find individuals within that group, who are not disobedient and obstinate. Paul's generalization is true for the most part. A review of the Biblical text will bear out his broad universal statement about "Israel." It is true that Israel is a disobedient and obstinate people.

Likewise when he asks, "they did not stumble so as to fall, did they?" once again his statement considers all of his kinsmen taken together as a single entity. While it is true that some of his kinsmen didn't stumble, it is also true that the entity known as "Israel" did stumble. She, the single entity, sentenced her messiah to die on a cross. And because of this, her transgression became riches for the Gentiles (taken together as a single entity.) And here also, Paul is using the term "Gentiles" to represent the entire group of Gentiles, taken together as a single entity. Never mind that only a fraction of them were willing to take advantage of those riches. These riches were available to all of them if they wanted it.

Paul's point is that the single entity known as "Israel", which is comprised of all of Paul's kinsmen taken as a whole and treated as a single entity -- THAT entity did not fall to it's destruction. Contrary to the opinion of WPM, God didn't transmogrify the church into Israel. The topic of Romans 11:11 is not the church universal, but the kinsmen of Paul considered as a single entity.

 

[CadyandZoe]

That hasn't stopped you from sharing your opinions before, so what's different about this?

As a student of Jesus Christ, I have learned that when direct communication fails, all one has left is indirect communication. Why did Jesus speak to them in parables? Because his people were rejecting the truth, spoken to them in plain language.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Why are you saying that I apparently don't understand Romans 9:6? What is that based on? I have explained my understanding of that verse many times and you have never done anything at all to refute it.

I think I was speaking in general terms. I meant to say that anyone (not you in particular) who can't identify the particular promise God made, which has apparently failed in light of Paul's gospel, can't understand Paul's defense. If a direct and real implication of the gospel of Jesus Christ is that God doesn't keep his word, then the gospel of Jesus Christ is wrong. God does keep his word.

Paul's defense can only be understood within the context of the alleged failure of God's word. Which one of God's promises is the subject of contention between Paul and his opponents? This is a question for both sides of the debate. Both sides should be able to answer and tell us which specific promise is under scrutiny?

 

[CadyandZoe]

What isn't okay? I didn't say anything about something being okay.


LOL. Do you actually think I'm going to take statements like this seriously when you won't even state what you believe the promise is? LOL. Hilarious.


Paul applied the promises God made to Abraham and his seed to Gentiles (Gal 3:29) even though that isn't stated explicitly anywhere in the Old Testament. Does that mean he was changing the Old Testament passages that talk about the promises God made to Abraham and his seed? Of course not. So, your logic here doesn't hold up at all.

I agree. Paul applied God's promise to Abraham and his seed to Gentiles in his epistle to the Galatians.

But the question remains, which particular promise of God does Paul have in view in Romans 9:6? He is not defending God's promise to Abraham, since he repeats God's promise to Abraham in his defense. Paul would never rely on a circular argument, making a rookie mistake like that. God's promise to Abraham and his seed is one pillar in many which support the Gospel of Christ, but the gospel of Christ doesn't challenge or call into question God's promise to Abraham. Paul is discussing another promise God made, which might be subject to failure.

And the question is, which one is it?

 

[CadyandZoe]

What is you understanding of the following passage of Scripture? When Paul writes "which is the mother of us all" he is saying not of the Jews of faith only but Gentiles of faith also.

Galatians 4:21-31 (KJV) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law? For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise. Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise. But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now. Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman. So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

I agree with your interpretation.

 

[CadyandZoe]

If that forming of a nation happened according to Gods will, they would not be alone.
People of all nations, according to his will, find themselves a part of the same nation when they are born again.

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless a person is born again [reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, sanctified], he cannot [ever] see and experience the kingdom of God.”

John 3:5
Jesus answered, “I assure you and most solemnly say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot [ever] enter the kingdom of God.

1pet 2
9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a consecrated nation, a [special] people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies [the wonderful deeds and virtues and perfections] of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people [at all], but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

I agree with the scriptures you present. But these passages inform our understanding of the Physical nation of Jewish people that God will bring into existence. According to John 3:3, the entire nation of physical Israel will consist of born again people. According to John 3:5, the entire population of physical, national Israel will enter the kingdom of God through the new birth (just like everyone else) and just as Peter says, the physical, national Israel will finally be the consecrated nation she was meant to be.

 

[rwb]

What I am trying to get you to see is the distinction between an individual person, considered as a single entity, and a group of people considered together as a single entity. We won't be able to understand Paul's point in Romans 11:11-14 if we fail to maintain that distinction.

Consider Romans 10:21 for instance.

But as for Israel He says, “All the day long I have stretched out My hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”​

Here Paul speaks of "Israel" in general terms, whereby he considers all of his kinsmen taken together as a single entity. The single entity known as "Israel" is a disobedient and obstinate people. Never mind that one might find individuals within that group, who are not disobedient and obstinate. Paul's generalization is true for the most part. A review of the Biblical text will bear out his broad universal statement about "Israel." It is true that Israel is a disobedient and obstinate people.

Likewise when he asks, "they did not stumble so as to fall, did they?" once again his statement considers all of his kinsmen taken together as a single entity. While it is true that some of his kinsmen didn't stumble, it is also true that the entity known as "Israel" did stumble. She, the single entity, sentenced her messiah to die on a cross. And because of this, her transgression became riches for the Gentiles (taken together as a single entity.) And here also, Paul is using the term "Gentiles" to represent the entire group of Gentiles, taken together as a single entity. Never mind that only a fraction of them were willing to take advantage of those riches. These riches were available to all of them if they wanted it.

Paul's point is that the single entity known as "Israel", which is comprised of all of Paul's kinsmen taken as a whole and treated as a single entity -- THAT entity did not fall to it's destruction. Contrary to the opinion of WPM, God didn't transmogrify the church into Israel. The topic of Romans 11:11 is not the church universal, but the kinsmen of Paul considered as a single entity.

This is not different than how Scripture speaks of the universal Church. The letters written are addressed to specific Churches, referring to all the members of the Church as 'saints', even though in reading these letters we understand not every member of the Church should be called a saint because some within the Church are the exact opposite.

The same is true of Israel of old. The nation as a whole was God's chosen people, yet we know there are many within the chosen nation who are not chosen of God for salvation. In fact, of those coming out of Egypt the majority of them died in unbelief.

Just because Paul writes that Israel has not stumbled so badly that there is no more hope for the entire nation, does not mean we can ignore everything else Paul says regarding them. While it's true Israel as a whole is not altogether forsaken by God, it is also true that according to Paul there is only a remnant from among the nation who are eternally saved by faith.

The nation was the Church in the wilderness before the advent of Christ (Acts 7:38), even though there was never more than a remnant of them actually belonging by grace through faith. The Church after the advent of Christ did not replace the faithful Jews within the Church of old, it expands the Old Covenant faithful with the New Covenant faithful from throughout the whole world. That's what Christ ushered in. That is what Paul repeated time and again. It was necessary for Paul to write of the fact that Gentiles of faith are included with the Jews of faith because the Jews had a hard time understanding and accepting that the plan of God from the beginning was to have a people of faith for Himself from every nation of the world.

Israel had much advantage over the rest of the world, because she alone was chosen by God to bring the promised Messiah into the world. Having been given the Covenant promises, the Law, and prophets, Israel was to have been a light for the world. But instead of being a light unto the Gentiles, Israel saw herself above the nations, and instead of receiving the light of God's grace, the nations of the earth remained without God in the world and sat in darkness and fear of death until the promised Messiah came. Christ was ordained from the beginning to be the bearer of light, and eternal life for Gentiles of faith as well as Jews of faith together.

This is what Paul's letters along with the four Gospels teach us. Christ would build His Church throughout the whole world and the gates of hell, though Satan would try, shall not prevent His Church from being completed.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is not different than how Scripture speaks of the universal Church. The letters written are addressed to specific Churches, referring to all the members of the Church as 'saints', even though in reading these letters we understand not every member of the Church should be called a saint because some within the Church are the exact opposite.

The same is true of Israel of old. The nation as a whole was God's chosen people, yet we know there are many within the chosen nation who are not chosen of God for salvation. In fact, of those coming out of Egypt the majority of them died in unbelief.

Just because Paul writes that Israel has not stumbled so badly that there is no more hope for the entire nation, does not mean we can ignore everything else Paul says regarding them. While it's true Israel as a whole is not altogether forsaken by God, it is also true that according to Paul there is only a remnant from among the nation who are eternally saved by faith.

The nation was the Church in the wilderness before the advent of Christ (Acts 7:38), even though there was never more than a remnant of them actually belonging by grace through faith. The Church after the advent of Christ did not replace the faithful Jews within the Church of old, it expands the Old Covenant faithful with the New Covenant faithful from throughout the whole world. That's what Christ ushered in. That is what Paul repeated time and again. It was necessary for Paul to write of the fact that Gentiles of faith are included with the Jews of faith because the Jews had a hard time understanding and accepting that the plan of God from the beginning was to have a people of faith for Himself from every nation of the world.

Israel had much advantage over the rest of the world, because she alone was chosen by God to bring the promised Messiah into the world. Having been given the Covenant promises, the Law, and prophets, Israel was to have been a light for the world. But instead of being a light unto the Gentiles, Israel saw herself above the nations, and instead of receiving the light of God's grace, the nations of the earth remained without God in the world and sat in darkness and fear of death until the promised Messiah came. Christ was ordained from the beginning to be the barer of light, and eternal life for Gentiles of faith as well as Jews of faith together.

This is what Paul's letters along with the four Gospels teach us. Christ would build His Church throughout the whole world and the gates of hell, though Satan would try, shall not prevent His Church from being completed.

Your explanation doesn't take into account Paul's purpose for writing Romans 9-11, which is his defense that the word of God hasn't failed. Let's answer that question first, before we jump to conclusions. What particular promise is under scrutiny?

 

[rwb]

I agree with the scriptures you present. But these passages inform our understanding of the Physical nation of Jewish people that God will bring into existence. According to John 3:3, the entire nation of physical Israel will consist of born again people. According to John 3:5, the entire population of physical, national Israel will enter the kingdom of God through the new birth (just like everyone else) and just as Peter says, the physical, national Israel will finally be the consecrated nation she was meant to be.

This is not true! Christ does not say every individual in the nation of ethnic Israel will be born again. In the Gospel of John, Christ is simply telling Nicodemus he and whosoever desires eternal life MUST be born again of the Spirit before he can understand or enter the Kingdom of God. The Bible clearly states that only a remnant of the nation of old are saved. If it were true that the Bible also states that all Israel that shall be saved are an ethnic people, then throw away your Bible. Because we cannot put our trust in a contradictory tale! Are you not the least concerned that your doctrine forces the Word of God to contradict itself?

 

[rwb]

Your explanation doesn't take into account Paul's purpose for writing Romans 9-11, which is his defense that the word of God hasn't failed. Let's answer that question first, before we jump to conclusions. What particular promise is under scrutiny?

No, the Word of God has not failed, and will never fail! Unless you read it as though it contradicts itself. Paul NEVER says that every individual ethnic Israelite will be eternally saved. Because that was never God's promise to them. That is YOUR doctrine but is NOT the doctrine of the Bible. God's promise to all people is that whosoever from every nation upon the earth, believes in Christ shall be saved! All who remain in unbelief will have their part in the second death which is the lake of fire.

 

[Truth7t7]

According to John 3:5, the entire population of physical, national Israel will enter the kingdom of God through the new birth (just like everyone else) and just as Peter says, the physical, national Israel will finally be the consecrated nation she was meant to be.

Your claim is "False"

"Only The Remnant Elect Jew" whom God "Foreknew" will be saved and "Added" to the "Church on Earth" Just Like Every Believer Is Saved And Added, They Now Become Children Of The Promised Seed to Abraham "The Church" of Both Jew and Gentile

When "The Election" Seen Below Obtains Salvation, They Become "The Church" Children Of The Promised Seed

Romans Chapter 11KJV "The Election"

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is not true! Christ does not say every individual in the nation of ethnic Israel will be born again. In the Gospel of John, Christ is simply telling Nicodemus he and whosoever desires eternal life MUST be born again of the Spirit before he can understand or enter the Kingdom of God. The Bible clearly states that only a remnant of the nation of old are saved. If it were true that the Bible also states that all Israel that shall be saved are an ethnic people, then throw away your Bible. Because we cannot put our trust in a contradictory tale! Are you not the least concerned that your doctrine forces the Word of God to contradict itself?

I don't see it as a contradiction. Remember God is going to circumcised their hearts, baptize them in the Holy Spirit and they will believe in Jesus Christ. No difference between them and us except for timing.

 

[CadyandZoe]

No, the Word of God has not failed, and will never fail! Unless you read it as though it contradicts itself. Paul NEVER says that every individual ethnic Israelite will be eternally saved. Because that was never God's promise to them. That is YOUR doctrine but is NOT the doctrine of the Bible. God's promise to all people is that whosoever from every nation upon the earth, believes in Christ shall be saved! All who remain in unbelief will have their part in the second death which is the lake of fire.

Again, until one understands what particular promise Paul has in mind in Romans 9:6 one can not understand Romans chapters 9 through 11. So I ask you, assuming that God did not promise to save each and every Israelite, what DID he promise?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your claim is "False"

"Only The Remnant Elect Jew" whom God "Foreknew" will be saved and "Added" to the "Church on Earth" Just Like Every Believer Is Saved And Added, They Now Become Children Of The Promised Seed to Abraham "The Church" of Both Jew and Gentile

I don't see that as a contradiction to what I said. The only difference is that God will call the Jews back to their land and sanctify them as a nation. They are known as the people "of the land." The church, however, is spread out all over the world and not in any particular place.