What and when is the rapture Part 2

[ewq1938]

With that same logic, no city can ever be called Sodom. Sodom is Sodom from its beginnings. Oh, except: Isaiah 1:10

10Hear the word of the LORD, ye rulers of Sodom; give ear unto the law of our God, ye people of Gomorrah.

That doesn't prove anything. Those are two different cities not two names for one city.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There are many religions acting as the state. There are nations claiming total atheism. Are you saying the woman is also the beast as well?

Are you purposely just being a clown and playing games here or are you just ignorant? Of course I'm not saying that the woman is also the beast. No one in their right mind would say that. Don't be so ridiculous.

Do you want to be taken seriously? If you do then stop asking ridiculous questions like that. Imagine if I asked you that question. What would you think? Clearly, no one would say the woman and the beast are the same since it's clear that it says the woman rides on the beast (Rev 17). How can the beast ride on itself? Come on.

 

[Timtofly]

Lets focus on one thing at a time. You said that I didn’t interpret scripture with scripture and that is exactly what I did so here it is again.

Rev 16
16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

Babylon the great is destroyed at the battle at Armageddon she is called a city and she is destroyed as rev 17 shows by the beast and the 10 kings. Jesus isn’t mentioned here but scripture shows us that God uses the beast and 10 kings to do it.

Revelation 17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled

Revelation 19
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf.With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. 21 The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh
After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting:

So once again a different battle with different combatants and a different outcome.

Revelation 16 is the destruction of Babylon the great not the beast and revelation 17 shows us that the beast and 10 kings do it. Revelation 19 is the defeat of the beast and the false prophet by Jesus and everyone dies but not everyone dies in revelation 16.

Now unlike what you accused me of I used scripture to interpret scripture.

Now here more proof that they are not the same battle

Revelation 19
“Hallelujah!
Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for true and just are his judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries.
He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”

3 And again they shouted:

“Hallelujah!
The smoke from her goes up for ever and ever.”

The beginning of Revelation 19 clearly shows that Babylon the great is destroyed before the battle at the end of revelation 19.

Here’s another question do you believe that no one knows when the second coming is?

You left out this verse in chapter 17:

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

Can you point out how these kings can destroy the whore after Jesus destroys them? They have already destroyed the whore by the time Armageddon starts.

Same Armageddon in chapter 16 as in chapter 17 as in chapter 19.

These 10 kings are only destroyed once, by the Lamb in all 3 chapters. Not 3 comings and 3 battles. They do not keep coming back to life and fighting 3 different times.

They are not gathered at Armageddon to defeat the city of Babylon nor the whore. The only enemy they face at Armageddon is the Lamb. That is because God gathered them, Himself to defeat them once and for all.

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I (the Lamb) come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he (the Lord God, the Lamb included) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

Besides that "I" is a person. You are saying Jesus is not mentioned here? Do you know another person coming as a thief?

 

[Timtofly]

Not one verse in revelation chapter 18 states that Jerusalem was a port city or even describes it as one it only says that merchants and sea captains became rich from her. All that is saying is that it was a large trading city like Jerusalem was and like I said.

Now on the other hand I posted 10 biblical references that tie Babylon the great city to Jerusalem which is morning biblical authoritative

Well there will be a river running from Jerusalem to the Mediterranean at the Second Coming. Detroit MI is hundreds of miles from an ocean and is a port city. Ship trade will be possible on that new river.


But this Babylonian "city" is the empire of Satan, not just Jerusalem. More than likely the whole ME.

 

[Marty fox]

You left out this verse in chapter 17:

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

Can you point out how these kings can destroy the whore after Jesus destroys them? They have already destroyed the whore by the time Armageddon starts.

Same Armageddon in chapter 16 as in chapter 17 as in chapter 19.

These 10 kings are only destroyed once, by the Lamb in all 3 chapters. Not 3 comings and 3 battles. They do not keep coming back to life and fighting 3 different times.

They are not gathered at Armageddon to defeat the city of Babylon nor the whore. The only enemy they face at Armageddon is the Lamb. That is because God gathered them, Himself to defeat them once and for all.

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I (the Lamb) come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he (the Lord God, the Lamb included) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

Besides that "I" is a person. You are saying Jesus is not mentioned here? Do you know another person coming as a thief?

Actually I did mention chapter 16 but obviously the lamb overcoming them is in future tense after they destroy Babylon since the bible states that they destroy her.


Yes Jesus is mentioned in chapter 16 I stand corrected but that verse is about Jesus coming in judgment. That is described in chapter 17 as they destroyed her for Gods purpose just like in the verse below

Isaiah 19:1
19 A prophecy against Egypt:

See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

God came in judgment on Egypt but just like the beast and the 10 kings He used people to do it He didn’t come literally Himself

 

[Timtofly]

Are you purposely just being a clown and playing games here or are you just ignorant? Of course I'm not saying that the woman is also the beast. No one in their right mind would say that. Don't be so ridiculous.

Do you want to be taken seriously? If you do then stop asking ridiculous questions like that. Imagine if I asked you that question. What would you think? Clearly, no one would say the woman and the beast are the same since it's clear that it says the woman rides on the beast (Rev 17). How can the beast ride on itself? Come on.

Because some humans have no distinction between their religion and the government that controls their daily life.

You would have to rule out Islam because the whore and beast are the same entity. Most eastern thought processes are.

It is western thought that makes such a distinction in most cases. But even Europe at times held religion as their governing body.

Not sure why you are offended at the question. Unless you don't see religion as the whore. What would you define the whore as other than religion? Israel?

 

[Timtofly]

Actually I did mention chapter 16 but obviously the lamb overcoming them is in future tense after they destroy Babylon since the bible states that they destroy her.


Yes Jesus is mentioned in chapter 16 I stand corrected but that verse is about Jesus coming in judgment. That is described in chapter 17 as they destroyed her for Gods purpose just like in the verse below

Isaiah 19:1
19 A prophecy against Egypt:

See, the Lord rides on a swift cloud
and is coming to Egypt.
The idols of Egypt tremble before him,
and the hearts of the Egyptians melt with fear.

God came in judgment on Egypt but just like the beast and the 10 kings He used people to do it He didn’t come literally Himself

Well it is the Second Coming time frame. Most of Christianity accepts Jesus to come in the flesh, just the same as in the flesh the first time. The Lamb hung on a Cross, right?

Still not getting this push back, where people agree Jesus was in the flesh as the Lamb on the Cross, but will not be in the flesh as the Lamb at Armageddon. Most Amil think the earth is burnt to a crisp instead of Jesus actually showing up and literally dealing with humanity face to face. I don't get the disconnect of it being true in the first century, but won't happen at the Second Coming Day of the Lord.

 

[Phoneman777]

What did Paul teach us that the rapture is for? When it would occur?

There are two main teachings by Paul on the rapture,the first one is:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The second example that is used is in 1st Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37 When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39 Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40 There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41 The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.

42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. 48 As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true:

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.

There is also no mention of a tribulation upon the earth or a persecution upon the saints after these events. Paul tells us that the rapture is only for changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven. Paul also says that this happens at the last trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.

Back to Revelation

Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

The voices say that Jesus will reign for ever and ever, not for just a 1000 years on the earth.

The 24 elders say in Revelation 11:18 say (at the seventh trumpet)

The nations were angry, and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your people who revere your name, both great and small—and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

The time has come for judging the dead and rewarding your servants and for destroying the earth. The judging the dead happens in Revelation 20:12 after Satan is defeated and cast into hell which is after the 1000 years.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

The destroying of the ones who destroyed the earth is in Revelation 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:12-13 “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus says here that when he comes he will reward us and give to each person according to what they have done. Jesus does this on the judgment day in Revelation chapter 20. Jesus also says that he is the beginning and the end, Jesus made the earth in the beginning and will come at the end. I believe that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s release right before he is cast into hell. The 1000 years is not what most people think. The bible does not say that the 1000 years is a time of peace or on the earth because Satan is bound from doing any evil. There is no mention Jesus being on the earth during the 1000 years in the book of Revelation. I believe that we are in the 1000 years now, and possibly in the time of Satan’ release. The 1000 year reign and the 1000 year binding start, and end, at different times in Revelation 20. The binding starts in verse 2 and ends in verse 7. The reign starts in verse 4 and ends in verse 11 & 12 verse 5 tells us this. The 1000 year reign ends after Satan is released defeated and cast into hell. Satan is only bound by deceiving the nations because of the message of the gospel through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Summary

I believe that this study shows us that the rapture is at the end of Satan’s little season at the 7th trumpet right before Jesus destroys the earth. So lets spread the word now because there is no chance after the rapture as some people believe there is. They believe that the rapture will be the proof that Jesus is real and convince there unsaved friends who Jesus is.

Remember these verses Jesus said in Luke 16:21-27 about the dead rich man. “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if
someone rises from the dead.’”

Doesn't Revelation say the 1,000 years are bookended by the two resurrections?

After it speaks of the righteous being raised, it says the rest of the dead (the wicked) lived not again until the thousand years were finished, followed by the parenthetical statement: "this is the first resurrection", referring to the saints.

 

[Phoneman777]

Because some humans have no distinction between their religion and the government that controls their daily life.

You would have to rule out Islam because the whore and beast are the same entity. Most eastern thought processes are.

It is western thought that makes such a distinction in most cases. But even Europe at times held religion as their governing body.

Not sure why you are offended at the question. Unless you don't see religion as the whore. What would you define the whore as other than religion? Israel?

For interest's sake, the Protestant Reformation taught that a beast is a kingdom and a woman is a church: a pure woman represents God's faithful church while the whore represents an apostate church.

Therefore, a "woman riding the beast" is an apostate church exercising control over the secular state - just as Jezebel, prophetess of Baal, led king Ahab to persecute God's faithful...and just as the papacy controlled the state and used it to persecute God's true people throughout the Dark Ages. Protestantism taught this for over 300 years before Jesuit Futurism and it's "7 year tribulation future Antichrist" took hold and eventually gained ascendency in the first half of the 20th century.

 

[Marty fox]

Doesn't Revelation say the 1,000 years are bookended by the two resurrections?

After it speaks of the righteous being raised, it says the rest of the dead (the wicked) lived not again until the thousand years were finished, followed by the parenthetical statement: "this is the first resurrection", referring to the saints.

The saints first resurrection is spiritual the wicked is physical

 

[ewq1938]

The saints first resurrection is spiritual the wicked is physical

Incorrect, the dead in Christ will be physically raised from the dead because Christ also physically rose from the dead. The dead will be split into two groups. The first group is the first resurrection of the dead, Rev 20:4. The second group is the second resurrection of the rest of the dead, Rev 20:5

 

[Marty fox]

Incorrect, the dead in Christ will be physically raised from the dead because Christ also physically rose from the dead. The dead will be split into two groups. The first group is the first resurrection of the dead, Rev 20:4. The second group is the second resurrection of the rest of the dead, Rev 20:5

Yes they will too be raised physically along with the wicked at the end of our world but the first resurrection is spiritual

 

[ewq1938]

Yes they will too be raised physically along with the wicked at the end of our world but the first resurrection is spiritual

Not the first resurrection of Rev 20. That chp speaks of two separate resurrections, both are physical. The first resurrection is the first of those two.

 

[Hippie]

Why wonder when the rapture is going to happen . Be more concerned about you daily walk with Jesus to please God. Our job being born again. Spread Gods word so people can change their lives to God. Less chance for them to miss their journey to heaven. We don't know when the rapture is going to happen nobody knows when the twinkle of the eye will. We may be in the first rapture or the second one. God only knows. So live your life like God wants you to.

 

[Phoneman777]

The saints first resurrection is spiritual the wicked is physical

Both dead saints and dead wicked resurrect to the Second Life - the saints with an immortal flesh and bone body, and the wicked with the same old mortal body which is why it's subject to the Second Death. Both resurrections are separated by the 1,000 years.

 

[Phoneman777]

You left out this verse in chapter 17:

"These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

Can you point out how these kings can destroy the whore after Jesus destroys them? They have already destroyed the whore by the time Armageddon starts.

Same Armageddon in chapter 16 as in chapter 17 as in chapter 19.

These 10 kings are only destroyed once, by the Lamb in all 3 chapters. Not 3 comings and 3 battles. They do not keep coming back to life and fighting 3 different times.

They are not gathered at Armageddon to defeat the city of Babylon nor the whore. The only enemy they face at Armageddon is the Lamb. That is because God gathered them, Himself to defeat them once and for all.

"For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I (the Lamb) come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he (the Lord God, the Lamb included) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

Besides that "I" is a person. You are saying Jesus is not mentioned here? Do you know another person coming as a thief?

Since there's no pre-trib rapture:

The battle of Armageddon begins with the 1st of the 7 Last Plagues when the inhabitants of spiritual Babylon realize the very ones they've persecuted and condemned for rejecting the Papal Beast and its "Mark of authority" are divinely protected, while they are overcome with the divine justice of scorching sun, unquenchable thirst, grievous sores, etc. "A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand, but it shall not come nigh thee. Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked".

The 7th Plague compels them to run to their rocky, mountainous tombs and cry out to them to "fall on us and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb" as the wicked drop dead in their tracks and "the slain of the Lord in that day shall be from one end of the Earth even to the other end of the Earth" because no one but the saints can withstand "the brightness of His coming".

After a 1,000 year lull, the battle resumes - Jesus and the saints in "New Jerusalem come down", permanently relocated to Earth and the wicked rise in the Resurrection of the Damned. They marshal themselves together, preparing to attack but their plans are interrupted by the White Throne Judgment. Jesus ascends high above and flashes before each mind every occasion when they refused God's hand of grace, and instead chose to serve sin. Eventually, they drop to their knees and for the first time, every single person who's ever lived confesses in one voice that Jesus Christ is Lord of all. Suddenly, they rise to make one final desperate attempt to avoid the fate they know they deserve, and go up and surround the City, but fire comes "down from God out of heaven" and devours them.

Thus ends the battle of Armageddon.

 

[Phoneman777]

Incorrect, the dead in Christ will be physically raised from the dead because Christ also physically rose from the dead. The dead will be split into two groups. The first group is the first resurrection of the dead, Rev 20:4. The second group is the second resurrection of the rest of the dead, Rev 20:5

He means the saints rise with an immortal body, while the wicked rise with the same old arthritic, bent over, cancer-ridden, clogged artery, disease ravaged mortal body...I think.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Yes they will too be raised physically along with the wicked at the end of our world but the first resurrection is spiritual

If the 1st resurrection is spiritual, how do you spiritualize them being beheaded and martyred? According to you that isn’t physical. Please explain

 

[Marty fox]

Why wonder when the rapture is going to happen . Be more concerned about you daily walk with Jesus to please God. Our job being born again. Spread Gods word so people can change their lives to God. Less chance for them to miss their journey to heaven. We don't know when the rapture is going to happen nobody knows when the twinkle of the eye will. We may be in the first rapture or the second one. God only knows. So live your life like God wants you to.

Yes did you see the end of my study?

 

[Marty fox]

If the 1st resurrection is spiritual, how do you spiritualize them being beheaded and martyred? According to you that isn’t physical. Please explain

Because the first resurrection is spiritual when we are saved and then we never truly die because death has no power over us. Revelation 20:4 shows us that even though the body dies physically we still live spiritually

So it is physical but we are no longer bound to the physical