Our hope for the Future

[ewq1938]

A mockery of dispen/premil's scripture.

It mocks scripture in all bibles.

 

[covenantee]

It mocks scripture in all bibles.

It mocks dispen/premil's scripture, which is not in any Bibles.

 

[ewq1938]

It mocks dispen/premil's scripture, which is not in any Bibles.

Scripture says 144k virgins. To call that "sex starved" is immature and mockery of the bible.

 

[covenantee]

Scripture says 144k virgins. To call that "sex starved" is immature and mockery of the bible.

D/P says 144k physical virgins. "Starved" means "deprived".

Are not physical virgins deprived of sex?

 

[ewq1938]

D/P says 144k physical virgins. "Starved" means "deprived".

Are not physical virgins deprived of sex?

There's no talking yourself out of this. Be more mature and stop mocking scripture to try to shame Premill. It's a bad look and it has been QFT.

 

[Trekson]

Matt 25 suggests no such thing except for the goats going to hell.

The 70th week saw our atonement for sins committed under the old. It finished a long time ago.


24 “Seventy weeks [of years, or 490 years] have been decreed for your people and for your holy city (Jerusalem),
to finish the transgression,
to make an end of sins,
to make atonement (reconciliation) for wickedness,
to bring in everlasting righteousness (right-standing with God),
to seal up vision and prophecy and prophet,
and to anoint the Most Holy Place.

Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a High Priest of the good things to come [that is, true spiritual worship], He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not a part of this [material] creation. 12 He went once for all into the Holy Place [the Holy of Holies of heaven, into the presence of God], and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, having obtained and secured eternal redemption [that is, the salvation of all who personally believe in Him as Savior]. 13 For if the sprinkling of [ceremonially] defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a [burnt] heifer is sufficient for the cleansing of the body, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal [Holy] Spirit willingly offered Himself unblemished [that is, without moral or spiritual imperfection as a sacrifice] to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works and lifeless observances to serve the ever living God?

15 For this reason He is the Mediator and Negotiator of a new covenant [that is, an entirely new agreement uniting God and man], so that those who have been called [by God] may receive [the fulfillment of] the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has taken place [as the payment] which redeems them from the sins committed under the obsolete first covenant. 16 For where there is a will and testament involved, the death of the one who made it must be established, 17 for a will and testament takes effect [only] at death, since it is never in force as long as the one who made it is alive. 18 So even the first covenant was not put in force without [the shedding of] blood. 19 For when every commandment in the Law had been read by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of the calves and goats [which had been sacrificed], together with water and scarlet wool and with a bunch of hyssop, and he sprinkled both the scroll itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant [that seals and ratifies the agreement] which God ordained and commanded [me to deliver to] you.” 21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the containers and sacred utensils of worship with the blood. 22 In fact under the Law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness [neither release from sin and its guilt, nor cancellation of the merited punishment].

23 Therefore it was necessary for the [earthly] copies of the heavenly things to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves required far better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ did not enter into a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but [He entered] into heaven itself, now to appear in the very presence of God on our behalf; 25 nor did He [enter into the heavenly sanctuary to] offer Himself again and again, as the high priest enters the Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer over and over since the foundation of the world; but now once for all at the consummation of the ages He has appeared and been publicly manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And just as it is appointed and destined for all men to die once and after this [comes certain] judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once and once for all to bear [as a burden] the sins of many, will appear a second time [when he returns to earth], not to deal with sin, but to bring salvation to those who are eagerly and confidently waiting for Him.

Thanks for the conversation.

The 70th week is still future, the gap is right there in the text of Dan. 9.

 

[Trekson]

D/P says 144k physical virgins. "Starved" means "deprived".

Are not physical virgins deprived of sex?

Not when they elect to do so."Deprived" implies against one's will, that is not the case of the 144,000. I believe they are mostly children.

 

[rwb]

The problem with your assumption here, is that this is at the Second Coming. Why are you assuming the Seals point to events in the first century?

The 144k are alive today. They are not dead people from thousands of years ago. The disciples were the first century firstfruits of the church. There were only 12. You are changing these 144k into mere symbols. Why? The 12 disciples were literal, not symbols of the entire church. There were way more the 144k OT redeemed, and definitely not a specific amount from each tribe. Being part of the redeemed since Abel has been a personal choice, by faith. At the Second Coming that choice of faith will be removed as the church will be complete.

These 144k are sealed out of Israel even before the sheep are separated from the goats. They don't represent the sheep. They are not even the sheep. They are humans alive today who will work with Jesus as His Second Coming disciples, just like the original 12 disciples. The original 12 were not the entire church. They took the Gospel to the world. Is it that hard that at the Second Coming Jesus uses way more people in His inner circle, because now there are 8 billion on earth, as opposed to only millions in the first century?

Now you have virtually replaced the original 12 disciples with an unessary opinion about these sealed in Revelation 7. We already have the names of those chosen in the first century. Why do some go to great lengths to explain away the obvious? Refusing to accept the literal reading in the context, and just symbolize away the text with opinion can only lead to jumping to wrong conclusions.

There is a final harvest at the Second Coming, and all those currently on earth will be dealt with one on one, because Jesus is coming to introduce Himself as the King of all creation. He is not coming to instantly incinerate every one.

If or when you can present Scripture to support your opinions, then we will have something to discuss. This is after all a Bible forum for discussing our understanding of Scripture. Not interested in discussing unbiblical opinions, and that is what we have here until you prove what you assume from the Word of God.

 

[rwb]

Apparently you don't believe any of the scriptures that say otherwise. There are way too many proofs to provide and I gave you a sample yet you refuse to believe God's word, I'm done. Here's a fact, take it or leave it. "Every" OT prophecy that speaks of "in that day", the day", etc. is referring to the 'day that Messiah reigns on earth"!

That's why we are called to study the Word and not simply pick and choose verses out of context we think will support our preconceived opinions. We study the Word to rightly divide, rather than search the Word to find verses we think fit our preconceived opinions.

Here's a shock for you! I agree the Old Testament prophets foretell of the Day of the Lord that would come and tell us what will come to pass in that day (age/time) when fulfillment of the prophesy came/comes to pass after the advent of the Messiah coming to earth a man. All the prophets foretell what would come in the Day of the Lord coming, is and shall be fulfilled during this day/age/time the prophets foretell shall be the Day of the Lord. You are not making a distinction between the Day of the Lord when Messiah came to the earth a man in His day/age/time, and the final or last Day of the Lord that shall come when the seventh angel begins to sound that time/day/age shall be no more.

The prophets repeatedly define the Day of the Lord coming with utter destruction of this earth in the day of His fierce anger. Where in any of the writings of the Old Testament prophets can you prove the Day of the Lord that shall come will be when Messiah reigns on this earth for one thousand years?

 

[rwb]

Scriptures interpreted incorrectly are worse than opinions.

How would we know whether you have correctly interpreted the Scripture since you fail to give them?

 

[rwb]

Not when they elect to do so."Deprived" implies against one's will, that is not the case of the 144,000. I believe they are mostly children.

But what can you prove? We're not interested in hearing what you think, but what you can prove is truth from Scripture!

 

[rwb]

The 70th week is still future, the gap is right there in the text of Dan. 9.

Prove this gap!

 

[Trekson]

That's why we are called to study the Word and not simply pick and choose verses out of context we think will support our preconceived opinions. We study the Word to rightly divide, rather than search the Word to find verses we think fit our preconceived opinions.

Here's a shock for you! I agree the Old Testament prophets foretell of the Day of the Lord that would come and tell us what will come to pass in that day (age/time) when fulfillment of the prophesy came/comes to pass after the advent of the Messiah coming to earth a man. All the prophets foretell what would come in the Day of the Lord coming, is and shall be fulfilled during this day/age/time the prophets foretell shall be the Day of the Lord. You are not making a distinction between the Day of the Lord when Messiah came to the earth a man in His day/age/time, and the final or last Day of the Lord that shall come when the seventh angel begins to sound that time/day/age shall be no more.

The prophets repeatedly define the Day of the Lord coming with utter destruction of this earth in the day of His fierce anger. Where in any of the writings of the Old Testament prophets can you prove the Day of the Lord that shall come will be when Messiah reigns on this earth for one thousand years?

The DoL is over a 1000yrs. long, it begins w/ the signs of the 6th seal but it's not an earth destroying event until after the mill as scripture shows. The DoL has many parts to it, basicaly everything from the 6th seal to the GWTJ. The first advent of the Messiah was not the Day of the Lord.

 

[Trekson]

How would we know whether you have correctly interpreted the Scripture since you fail to give them?

I did from Zech.

But what can you prove? We're not interested in hearing what you think, but what you can prove is truth from Scripture!

There are many prophetic things that can't be "proved" w/ scripture one way or another. Sometimes all we can do is create a likely scenario that lines up w/ the whole of prophecy. I'd be surprised if we've been given more than 50% of the details of end times prophecy. We also have to be prepared to re-write our thoughts and opinions should them paradigm of the present reality change. I can't "prove" to you I have eternal life but by faith we accept it to be truth.

Prove this gap!

It's in the order it is written and it will be proven but will you accept it or immediately dismiss it like most because it doesn't "jibe" with their predetermined beliefs (guess which one I believe will happen): Dan. 9:24-27 - "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (this is for Israel to accomplish, not for Messiah to do it for them and it begins when Zech. 12:10 is fulfilled)

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (Messiah came as "Prince" when Zech. 9:9 was fulfilled at the 'end" of his ministry)

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, (shortly after he came, Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69th week. 70th week still hasn't begun) but not for himself: and the people ( the conscripted soldiers of the Roman army from nations surrounding Israel) of the prince that shall come (the a/c) shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; (this is 70ad, still no mention of the 70th week) and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he (anti-christ = the prince that shall come) shall confirm the covenant (this is neither the old or new covenant but something different, more like a peace treaty) with many ( not all of Israel will agree to this but the majority will) for one week: (at last, at some unknown time 'after" 70ad, the 70th week begins) and in the midst of the week (not the exact middle) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, (he breaks the covenant, something Messiah would never do) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, (like Rev.13:5, 14-15) even until the consummation, (Armageddon) and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You implied that Amillennialism promotes Anti-Semitism. Are you trying to backtrack now?

I did. Many of the Christians that had negative feelings abouy the Jews as much as cursing them were Amillennialists. Catholics for instance are Prederists. Recent archives that have become available proves Pope Pius XII knew about the Holocaust, received info in 1942 and ignored it. He did not condemn the Holocaust, he was silent and even lied about it, suggesting the Church should not believe such exaggerated tales. Wow. So, don't tell me Anti-Semitism isn't common in the Church.

What are you talking about? Some Israelites have been grafted in every day for the past almost 2,000 years. Why do you delay that to the future?

Romans 11, Rev 7

You ask how this will happen, a massive amount of Jews, millions, suddenly realize that Jesus really the Messiah? Gid cinverts the soul, He lifts the veil of blindness. When Jesus returns and "every eye sees Him", that will be the day.

 

[jeffweeder]

The 70th week is still future, the gap is right there in the text of Dan. 9.

Heb 9 that I quoted and highlighted proves you wrong.
We have atonement for sin. We are clothed in his everlasting righteousness. He has anointed the most Holy place so we can approach

19 Therefore, believers, since we have confidence and full freedom to enter the Holy Place [the place where God dwells] by [means of] the blood of Jesus, 20 by this new and living way which He initiated and opened for us through the veil [as in the Holy of Holies], that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great and wonderful Priest [Who rules] over the house of God, 22 let us approach [God] with a true and sincere heart in unqualified assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

It is finished.

 

[rwb]

The DoL is over a 1000yrs. long, it begins w/ the signs of the 6th seal but it's not an earth destroying event until after the mill as scripture shows. The DoL has many parts to it, basicaly everything from the 6th seal to the GWTJ. The first advent of the Messiah was not the Day of the Lord.

Yeah, I agree! To date the Day of the Lord is around two thousand years and will not end until the last Day of the Lord when Christ comes the second time.

Again, can you biblically prove what you allege? If the first advent of the Messiah is not the Day of the Lord, why do we read in Acts that Pentecost ushered in the Day of the Lord the prophet Joel foretells would come? The day of Pentecost did indeed usher in the Day of the Lord coming with power. Since not all that was prophesied by Joel came at Pentecost, we know the Day of the Lord consists not of only one day when Christ will come again in judgment. Because the Day of the Lord is not only one day but is from the beginning of the Day of the Lord prophesied to come, fulfilled at Pentecost, until the final or last Day of the Lord the New Testament shows us Christ will come again.

Acts 2:1-4 (KJV) And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:14-21 (KJV) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If you read Joel 2 you will find the Day of the Lord he foretells would come is not only of the final Day of the Lord when Christ comes again as Judge, but also includes the time when man shall call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. That speaks of this current age we are living in and have been in since the advent of Christ coming to earth a man.

Joel 2:28-32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

 

[covenantee]

There's no talking yourself out of this. Be more mature and stop mocking scripture to try to shame Premill. It's a bad look and it has been QFT.

Are not physical virgins deprived of sex?

Premil does a stellar job of shaming itself.

When the 144,000 are recognized as God's redeemed faithful obedient Covenant-keepers through the ages, aka His Church; all of the shame evaporates.

 

[Trekson]

Heb 9 that I quoted and highlighted proves you wrong.
We have atonement for sin. We are clothed in his everlasting righteousness. He has anointed the most Holy place so we can approach

19 Therefore, believers, since we have confidence and full freedom to enter the Holy Place [the place where God dwells] by [means of] the blood of Jesus, 20 by this new and living way which He initiated and opened for us through the veil [as in the Holy of Holies], that is, through His flesh, 21 and since we have a great and wonderful Priest [Who rules] over the house of God, 22 let us approach [God] with a true and sincere heart in unqualified assurance of faith, having had our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.

It is finished.

The problem with that is the prophecy wasn't for us it was for national Israel. Yes, we have all that in Jesus but national Israel does not, yet, but they will. If they had kept on accepting Christ, on a national level, after the triumphant procession than vs. 24 would have been fulfilled but they didn't, hence the need for the gap. When they (national Israel) escort Jesus into Israel after Armageddon it will be the true triumphal procession and it is when "they will bring in everlasting righteousness" and the time when they will "anoint the most holy", who is Christ as King of Kings, Lord of Lords and the prophesied Messiah. They will finish the "national transgression, the end of "national sins" and make reconciliation for "national iniquity" when Zech. 12:10 and 13:8-9 are fulfilled.

 

[Trekson]

Yeah, I agree! To date the Day of the Lord is around two thousand years and will not end until the last Day of the Lord when Christ comes the second time.

Again, can you biblically prove what you allege? If the first advent of the Messiah is not the Day of the Lord, why do we read in Acts that Pentecost ushered in the Day of the Lord the prophet Joel foretells would come? The day of Pentecost did indeed usher in the Day of the Lord coming with power. Since not all that was prophesied by Joel came at Pentecost, we know the Day of the Lord consists not of only one day when Christ will come again in judgment. Because the Day of the Lord is not only one day but is from the beginning of the Day of the Lord prophesied to come, fulfilled at Pentecost, until the final or last Day of the Lord the New Testament shows us Christ will come again.

Acts 2:1-4 (KJV) And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:14-21 (KJV) But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

If you read Joel 2 you will find the Day of the Lord he foretells would come is not only of the final Day of the Lord when Christ comes again as Judge, but also includes the time when man shall call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. That speaks of this current age we are living in and have been in since the advent of Christ coming to earth a man.

Joel 2:28-32 (KJV) And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

I know you'll probably disagree but the quotes don't say his first advent was the DoL. Acts 2:17-18 were fulfilled and are still happening. It's not mentioned until the last part of vs. 20 "after" speaking about the signs of the 6th seal which hasn't happened yet. They are the signs that the DoL is about to begin. Peter is simply quoting the whole prophecy to keep things in context, he is not saying the whole of that prophecy was fulfilled yet. The last part of Joel 2:32 won't happen until the millennial era. The remnant will be the 1/3 of Israel per Zech. 13:8-9.