Was Jesus Eternally Tormented?

[The Learner]

Yes, the punishment for the wicked is eternal....but what is the punishment? Eternal torment in flames? You answer is in Romans 6:23, which says it's DEATH!

Hi Brother, friend it is clear from the text, death there is spiritual death or separation form God.

20 In the past you were slaves to sin, and you did not even think about doing right. 21 You did evil things, and now you are ashamed of what you did. Did those things help you? No, they only brought death. 22 But now you are free from sin. You have become slaves of God, and the result is that you live only for God. This will bring you eternal life. 23 When people sin, they earn what sin pays—death. But God gives his people a free gift—eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[The Learner]

I have no problems with Brethren in Christ Disagreeing on secondary doctrine, but major doctrine like the deity of our Lord, the Arian position will send them to eternal punishment. Mainline SDAist do believe Jesus is God.

 

[Jack]

How about you just accept the truth?

If Jesus is not at this moment suffering in the fires of eternal torment, then "Christians" need to stop falsely claiming they've been saved from the fires of eternal torment.

ONLY sinners burn in Hell. Is your Jesus a sinner?

 

[Jack]

I was introducing you to the true living God instead of the sadist you are taught.

I'm glad I didn't call God of the Bible "sadist"!

 

[Jack]

I was introducing you to the true living God instead of the sadist you are taught.


Its fact. Every scholar on earth knows its fact.

You made a terrible mistake being taught by Kingdom Hall!

 

[Jack]

Hi Brother, friend Jack, it is clear that the dead do not know what is going on the surface of the earth from the Ecc proof texts.

This text below proves beyond doubt of any honest person that they sleep and are awake like we on the surface are.

Isaiah 14:1-11​

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Easy-to-Read Version​

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Israel Will Return Home​

14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.

A Song About the King of Babylon​

4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:
The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.

The rich man in Luke 16 died but was tormented in the fire. He was very much alive! Jesus didn't lie!

 

[The Learner]

You made a terrible mistake being taught by Kingdom Hall!

claiming that "Every scholar" agrees with his nonsense is a serious logic error.

 

[The Learner]

"
This article shows examples of the following types of logical fallacies Watchtower uses to support its teachings.

• Argument From Authority
• Excluded Middle, False Dichotomy
• Special Pleading
• Ad hominem - Attacking the Person
• Inconsistency
• Confirmation Bias
• Begging the Question - Circular reasoning
• Sweeping Generalisation - Dicto Simpliciter
• Misuse of Statistics
• Non sequitur
• Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
• Appeal to ignorance
• Slippery slope
• Straw Man
• Red Herring
• Suppressed Evidence
• Lies
• Knight Jump Exegesis"
• Examples of rhetorical fallacy within the Watchtower

 

[The Learner]

The Watchtower argues from authority when it calls for unquestioning acceptance of information from the Organization, claiming as the basis that it comes from Jehovah.

"Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and "the faithful and discreet slave."" Watchtower 2001 Aug 1 p.14

"The point is that Christians have implicit trust in their heavenly Father; they do not question what he tells them through his written Word and organization." Watchtower 1974 Jul 15 p.441

Excluded middle, or false dichotomy​

"Considering only the two extremes in a continuum of intermediate possibilities. Either you love your country or you hate it." 1

False Dichotomy is better known as black-and-white thinking. This is common within high control religions, and a constant feature in Watchtower publications. It is displayed by the concept that if you do not follow the Watchtower Organization, you do not worship Jehovah.

"If we stop actively supporting Jehovah’s work, then we start following Satan. There is no middle ground." Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.18

"Either you are serving Jehovah God or Satan the Devil. Regardless of your answer, if you follow the unrighteous ways of the world you cannot be serving the true God, Jehovah." You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth p.208

"Are you so different from the majority of mankind that you can say that they are serving the Devil but that you are serving the true God? There is a people who are that different, and everyone knows they are different and no part of the world. They are Jehovah's witnesses." Watchtower 1968 Mar 1 p.136

 

[The Learner]

Special pleading​

Special pleading is used to rescue a proposition in deep rhetorical trouble. It consists of statements such as, "it is not for us to know the way of God."

Watchtower appeals to special pleading when a person questions its doctrine with terms like "wait on Jehovah", don't "question Jehovah" or to describe disagreement as a sign of "immaturity."

"Do I patiently wait on Jehovah when answers to lingering questions seem slow in coming?" Watchtower 2003 Mar 15 p.25

"At the same time, we recognize that our knowledge of God's purpose is not perfect; our understanding has undergone adjustments over the years. Loyal Christians are content to wait on Jehovah for all such refinements." Watchtower 2004 Feb 15 p.17

"God's faithful modern-day Witnesses would never dare to question Jehovah" Watchtower 1995 Oct 1 p.27

"Mature Christians also realize that being at the Kingdom Hall for the Bible-based talk is more important and beneficial than being at a wedding feast or a gathering that might follow." Watchtower 2006 Oct 15 p.30

The expression "wait on Jehovah" is a special plead that is used when the Watchtower Society has not provided a logical answer to a question. Such an expression blames the person raising the questions of being unfaithful, when in reality it is not Jehovah being questioned but the logic of a human organization.

For example, a common question Witnesses struggle with is "Why would a loving God destroy billions of people at Armageddon for not being Jehovah's Witnesses?" Typically a Witness may use the special plea; "It is not for us to question Jehovah's justice." In reality, this is a valid question that highlights a major flaw in Watchtower Doctrine. It is not the justice of Jehovah being questioned but an unrealistic doctrine.

Another doctrine that requires a special plea is that the "earth together with the sun and the moon, will remain forever". (ws pp.98-99) It is impossible for the earth to remain forever, as the sun only has a finite period of time before the matter fueling it is consumed. The Watchtower makes the plea that God will refuel the sun.

"The great Creator of the universe, the Supplier of the energy that keeps it running, the Provider of the nuclear fuel that has kept our sun burning for billions of yearsyes, the Maker of man himself has promised that He will provide the fuel to perpetuate human lives forever on this earth. It is His divine will to do so!" Watchtower 1961 Feb 15 p.109

There is no Bible promise that God will "fuel" the sun. This imaginative solution is a special plea, as the writer finds no better solution to support the unfeasible Watchtower doctrine that this planet earth will remain forever. If an all powerful God had intended this planet to remain forever, he could have created nature in a sustainable way, rather than be forced to interfere with his own universal rules sometime in the future.

 

[The Learner]

Ad hominem - Attacking the Person
Ad hominem is Latin for "to the man" and refers to attacking the arguer and not the argument. Ad hominem attack is to use a person's reputation is to invalidate his argument, for example, saying that a person's statement is not worth considering because they are homosexual. Related to this is the phrase to "shoot the messenger". When a claim is made, such as that gravity exists, it is no more or less correct a statement depending on whether the claim is made by scientist or a student, a Muslim or a Christian.
"Some people insult those who disagree with them by questioning character or motives instead of focusing on the facts. Name-calling slaps a negative, easy-to-remember label onto a person, a group, or an idea. The name-caller hopes that the label will stick. If people reject the person or the idea on the basis of the negative label instead of weighing the evidence for themselves, the name-callers strategy has worked." Awake 2000 Jun 22 p.6
Watchtower provided an outstanding example of just such an ad hominem attack in a five page article from 1986 about "apostates." It listed a number of claims apostates make. Rather than address any of the claims, the article devoted itself to attacking what it felt was the motive of apostates.

"What is often the motive of those who criticize the Society or those taking the lead? Is it not often that some application of Scripture affects them personally? Rather than conform to sound doctrine and direction, they want the organization to change. Let us illustrate this with a few examples: …
But what is behind such reasoning [regarding grooming]? Is it not usually pride, an independent attitude, or a rather childish desire to have one's own way? …
But what is behind that reasoning [regarding blood]? Is it fear - fear of possibly losing one's present life or the life of a loved one? Is hope in the resurrection fading? …
But why do such critics feel that way [regarding disfellowshipping]? Do they have a close family tie or mistaken loyalty to a friend that they are putting ahead of loyalty to Jehovah and his standards and requirements? …
What is the motive of these critics [of failed Watchtower predictions]? Are they encouraging wakefulness on the part of God's people, or are they, rather, trying to justify themselves for falling back into sleepy inactivity?" Watchtower 1986 Mar 15 p.18
Watchtower's stance on each of these issues is questionable and the ad hominem attack of the motives of people that question such topics does nothing to address these points.

 

[The Learner]

Inconsistency
Becoming aware of inconsistency was one of the first things that made me start questioning. I was in hospital visiting a pioneer couple whose baby son spent his first year in hospital requiring numerous operations. In the room another sick baby lay wearing a cross around her neck. The Witness scoffed that the cross would not assist in having God answer the mother's prayers. I was aghast that this Witness inconsistently dismissed that her prayers for a healthy child had gone similarly unanswered.

One of the most common logical fallacies with Watchtower publications is the use of inconsistency, particularly when comparing events affecting Witnesses with similar events affecting others.

Prayer and Protection
Watchtower claims that only baptised Witnesses have an "unrestricted privilege of prayer".

"So, then, once we have learned that we should pray to God in Jesus' name, our prayers would not be answered unless we prayed only to Jehovah through his Son. ... He could approach his heavenly Father through Christ Jesus with the expectation of being heard. That is what happens to all who dedicate themselves to God through Christ and get baptized. They too have the unrestricted privilege of prayer. Surely, you desire to have your prayers answered. Therefore, if you are not now serving Jehovah as one of his dedicated worshipers, how wise to seek him earnestly! Pursue a course like that of Cornelius, and God will answer your prayers." Watchtower 1990 Jan 15 pp.4-6
""Naturally, God does not answer the prayers of wicked, unfaithful, and self-righteous people. (Proverbs 15:29; Isaiah 1:15; Luke 18:9-14) But those who fear Jehovah are heard because they have conformed to his righteous standards. Yet, they have done more. Fearers of Jehovah have made a dedication to God in prayer and symbolized this by undergoing water baptism . ... only baptized believers have an unrestricted privilege of approaching the King Eternal in prayer." Watchtower 1990 May 15 pp.11-12

 

[The Learner]

It is claimed that Jehovah provides protection to his followers.

"Jehovah still uses his angels to protect and strengthen his people." Watchtower 2017 Oct Study ed p.28 caption

"Heavenly angels guide and protect us so that we can preach the good news." Watchtower 2010 Jan 15 p.10

"Deliverance has often come through being identified as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses. Because of the house-to-house preaching, people get to know who the Witnesses are and what their position is on issues of the day. In a small village in Peru, terrorists accused the villagers of having betrayed them. They rounded up the men of the town and put them in a line to be shot. (In similar situations entire villages had been wiped out.) But at this point, one of the terrorists recognized a brother and said to the executioners: “That man is not one of them. I know him to be a Jehovah’s Witness, and they don’t meddle in politics.” The brother was released. Certainly, Jehovah protects his own!" Watchtower 1987 Jan 1 p.14

Watchtower claims Jehovah protects his followers, yet includes experiences of Jehovah's Witnesses that have died during spiritual activities.

 

[The Learner]

Image: Watchtower 2013 Mar 15 p.22

When Jehovah's Witnesses feel they have experienced protection through the power of prayer it is a sign of Jehovah's blessing.

"The anointed prayed for a way out of their inactive state, and in 1919, God answered their prayers, delivered them, and reactivated them in his service. Watchtower 1992 Sep 15 p.15

“They beat me on my heels with thick sticks. As I lay on the floor bleeding, feeling that I could not bear it anymore, I cried, “Jehovah, help me!” My persecutors were surprised and stopped beating me. Within a few minutes, they fell asleep. I felt relieved and regained my strength. This convinced me that Jehovah lovingly responds to his dedicated servants when they cry out to him. It strengthened my faith and taught me to place my full confidence in God.” Watchtower 2005 Aug 1 p.17

"One of Jehovah's Witnesses was reading The Watchtower in his car when someone suddenly grabbed him around the neck. He prayed fervently to Jehovah God. The attacker became motionless, and his grip slackened. The Witness started up the car, bade the man farewell, and left him standing like a statue in the middle of the road. In a world of increasing skepticism and doubt, lovers of God and truth can take heart from the positive assurance that prayers offered to Jehovah God through the right channel, in the right manner, and with the right attitude of mind and heart are heard." Watchtower 1988 Mar 15 p.7

This reasoning is inconsistent and fails at two levels.

1. Billions of people feel their prayers are answered and Christian bookstores are filled with literature outlining the power of prayer. What does it indicate for a "worldly" person to have their prayers answered?
2. If Jehovah protects some Witnesses, why have other faithful Witnesses been killed driving to meetings, at meetings, or in the preaching work?

Jehovah's Witnesses do not have divine protection, proven by the catastrophes that befall them. The Watchtower contains experiences of those that have died in the preaching work, driving to meetings or in special assignments? Therefore, experiences claiming divine protection are either exaggerated, or coincidence.

 

[The Learner]

"Note the example of Geydi, a sister from Guatemala. Her husband, Edi, was murdered as they were returning home from a congregation meeting. How has Geydi’s faith helped her to cope with her great sorrow? She states: “Prayer helps me throw my burden on Jehovah, which makes me feel peace. I see Jehovah’s care for me through my family and my friends in the congregation. Staying busy in Jehovah’s service eases my pain and helps me to take one day at a time without worrying too much about to- morrow. After going through this experience, I have learned that no matter what kind of test may come in the future, I will be able to face it with the help of Jehovah, Jesus, and the organization.”" Watchtower 2021 Nov p.24

In this experience, Geydi says she believes Jehovah helps her, despite her husband being "murdered as they were returning home from a congregation meeting." Numerous experiences have been printed of Jehovah's Witnesses dying in service.

"When I arrived in Cape Town, I was shown 200 cartons of literature destined for East Africa. The literature was printed in four European and four Asian languages, but none of it was in any of the African languages. When I inquired why all this literature was there before I even arrived, I was told that this had been intended for Frank and Gray Smith, two pioneers who had recently gone to Kenya to preach. Almost as soon as they arrived in Kenya, both contracted malaria, and sadly, Frank died." Watchtower 2003 Apr 1 p.27

 

[The Learner]

"Police identified the two men killed as Serafin Castillo, 86, and Francisco Urana, 56, both of Miami, police said. The bus was bringing the group of Jehovah’s Witnesses to a gathering in West Palm Beach." (usecmagazine.usecnetwork.com 2012/12/03)
"Super Typhoon Haiyan Pummels Central Philippines ... As of November 13, 2013, the Philippines branch office of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Manila reported that 27 Witnesses have been confirmed dead. Well over 100 homes of the Witnesses and five places of worship were destroyed." (jw.org as of 2 Jan 2016)
In order to have it both ways, claiming miracles but ignoring tragedies, the official line is Jehovah protects the group as a whole, not allowing Satan to totally annihilate all followers; not a particularly comforting concept.

"How, though, does Jehovah guard his people? His promise of protection does not guarantee us a problem-free life in this system; nor does it mean that he is obligated to work miracles in our behalf. Nevertheless, Jehovah does provide physical protection for his people as a group. After all, he would never allow the Devil to efface true worshipers from the earth!" Watchtower 2002 Dec 15 p.15
This is underwhelming reassurance, quite different to the preceding quotes promising protection from angels.

 

[The Learner]

Understanding truth​

The reason people do not believe Watchtower teachings is attributed to Satan blinding the minds of unbelievers.

"If anyone does not want to hear and get the sense of the truth and turn back and get healing for himself, Satan the Devil will take advantage of that fact. Satan blinds "the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through."-2 Corinthians 4:4" Watchtower 1984 Jun 1 pp.5-6

The inconsistency of this reasoning creates an interesting catch-22. If Satan is able to prevent billions of people from understanding Watchtower truth, how do Jehovah's Witnesses know that they are not similarly blinded by Satan?

Watchtower Errors​

"The Light Gets Brighter" is justification for Watchtower errors. Inconsistently, the errors of other religious groups are not dismissed so casually by Watchtower, such as when the Catholic Church was criticised from changing its doctrine.

"Yes, millions of persons have been shocked to learn that things they were taught as being vital for salvation are now considered by their church to be wrong. "Just ten years ago we Catholics had the absolute truth, we put all our faith in this. Now the pope and our priests are telling us this is not the way to believe any more, but we are to believe 'new things.' How do I know the 'new things' will be the truth in five years?" Awake! 1970 Apr 22 p.8

 

[The Learner]

Confirmation Bias​

Confirmation bias is where information is used to support prior beliefs. Watchtower teachings contain numerous examples of opposite situations being used to support that Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth.

If something positive is stated about Jehovah's Witnesses, it proves they have the truth. If something negative is stated about Jehovah's Witnesses, it is "persecution," proving Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth. If there are wars, it is a sign of the last days; if there is a cry of "peace and security" it is the last days. If archaeology makes a finding that contradicts the Bible, they are wrong, if they make a finding that aligns with the Bible, it is proof the Bible is inspired. If carbon dating aligns with a Bible date, it is support, if it disagrees, it cannot be trusted. If a disfellowshipped person has a good life, Satan is blessing them, if they have a tragic life, it is because they left Jehovah. During periods of high growth such as prior to 1914, 1925 and 1975 it was due to Jehovah's blessing. During negative growth after these dates, Jehovah was removing those with wrong motives. When Jehovah's Witnesses experience growth it proves Jehovah's blessing; when other religions experience growth, it is Satan's blessing. Jehovah's Witnesses are the "happiest people," except for all those that are on anti-depressants, because of how difficult it is living in a world controlled by Satan. If a person prays for the truth and is met by Jehovah's Witnesses, it was divine intervention, if they were met by another religious denomination it doesn't count. Religious groups flush with money are corrupt, but Watchtower's billions of dollars worth of property are evidence of diving blessing. When Catholics are accused of covering up child abuse it is evidence of their corruption, but when Watchtower is similarly accused, it is based on lies. When other religions predict the end of the world and nothing happens, they are false prophets, when Watchtower has done so, they are simply eager and keeping awake.

The list is endless; everything either confirms Watchtower teachings, or is dismissed as unreliable.

 

[The Learner]

Begging the Question - Circular reasoning​

Proof for a claim is assumed in the premise. For example, claiming the Bible is inspired because it tells us it is inspired.

"One of the most ancient books claiming inspiration by God is the Bible. It is also the most widely circulated and translated book in all history. Nearly two thousand years ago, one of its writers stated: “Quit being fashioned after this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” (Romans 12:2) What would be the source of such proof? The same writer stated: “All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” Therefore, the inspired Bible should serve as a reliable measuring rod for true and acceptable worship. — 2 Timothy 3:16, 17." Mankind's Search for God pp.16-17

Watchtower uses circular reasoning when attempting to prove they are God's chosen organization.

 

[The Learner]

Sweeping Generalisation - Dicto Simpliciter​

A sweeping generalisation applies a general statement too broadly, such as, "children should be seen and not heard" or "all atheists support adultery".

Watchtower makes sweeping generalisations, particularly related to supporting its black-and-white thinking that Witnesses alone are worthy of salvation. This is evident when promoting Witnesses as the happiest, most loving and moral group on earth, as well as claims that only Witnesses preach.

Only Witnesses demonstrate Christian love​

""Who else would welcome strangers into their home just because they worship the same God? Only Jehovah’s Witnesses!"" Watchtower 2017 May p.7

"Who in our time demonstrate such obedience to God's commandments on love? ... only Jehovah's Witnesses." Watchtower 1989 May 1 p.28

"Only in the spiritual paradise, among Jehovah's Witnesses, can we find the self-sacrificing love Jesus said would identify his true disciples." Watchtower 1986 Mar 15 p.20

"What religious group bases all its teachings on the Bible and makes known Jehovah's name? What group practices godly love, exercises faith in Jesus, is no part of the world, and proclaims that God's Kingdom is the only real hope for mankind? Of all the religious groups on earth, which one meets all these requirements? The facts clearly show that it is Jehovah's Witnesses" What Does the Bible Really Teach (2005) p.151

Such is the outstanding kind of love that the "new commandment" calls for, the love that Jesus' true followers would have for one another. (1 John 3:16) Who today give clear proof of obeying the "new commandment"? The evidence presented earlier in this publication unequivocally points to one worldwide association of Christians. ... The love that they demonstrate is unique in a world of increasing selfishness. They are Jehovah's Witnesses." Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of God's Kingdom pp.711-712

This is an inaccurate generalisation. It is a normal for sects to say that they are the most loving group and the smaller the group the more convinced they are that they are part of an irreplaceable family. Jesus said love would identify his followers and all Christian groups claim to follow this command and to be motivated by love. Aspects that bring into question the Watchtower claim of love is their lack of charitable works, their view of worldly people and shunning.