Was Jesus Eternally Tormented?

[Brakelite]

If the wages of sin is death, and death = eternal torment, what would Jesus have to endure in order to deliver us from that penalty of eternal torment?

If the wages of sin = eternal torment and Jesus suffered less than eternal torment, are the wages of sin paid?

Is anyone willing to take a firm hold of those questions, answer them, without changing the meaning of words in order to harmonize with preconceived opinions? Anyone? They aren't trick questions. Just require some honesty and integrity to get real answers without circumventing the issue.

 

[MatthewG]

It may be a good thing to look up what the word eternal means. I don’t see why Jesus would be eternally tortured, but for a period of time having suffered the sins of mankind, and suffering from what it was like to be in the body of flesh (with temptations from the devil, and possibly the world around him, including his willingness to do his Fathers will over his own); which he would taste death for everyone according to the scriptures. However he is always alive and active helping people and setting them free from bondage, by and through spirit of Christ.

Perhaps I don’t really understand. I don’t see where death = eternal torment either. People who died before went to Sheol; Jesus went to Sheol; and Jesus was the resurrection which lead them out of that place; and those in prison where judged when hell gave up its dead.

Now today people are resurrected in the Heavenly Realm outside the kingdom, and those who were saved by the blood inside the kingdom for keeping the commandments to love God and love your neighbor as yourself.

I believe the wages of sin have been paid for by the death of Christ Jesus for the world as a whole because of Gods love for the world (the people within it). The wrath of God was paid for to by the Nation of Israel.

 

[Scott Downey]

Is anyone willing to take a firm hold of those questions, answer them, without changing the meaning of words in order to harmonize with preconceived opinions? Anyone? They aren't trick questions. Just require some honesty and integrity to get real answers without circumventing the issue.

That is an agenda driven question full of false suppositions created by a JW designed to confuse and deceive gullible people. Are you also one of them?

Hebrews 9 tells why Christ did not have to suffer continually for sin.
In actuality Christ died to atone for the sins of His people, only His people have their sins forgiven them.
The examples here are of the atonement done for the people of Israel in the OC times by the Levitical priests.
The example here is the atonement done for the people of God in the NC time by the Great shepherd of the sheep, a priest of a different order entirely.
This is speaking of the atonement, the forgiveness of sins for the people of God in the New Covenant.
This is not speaking about those who are outside of the New Covenant, those who are not His people.
He puts away SIN by the sacrifice of Himself for the people of God, that is why he does not have to continually suffer as a sacrifice for sin, v26
They do not come under the final judgement of life or death by their works, but have passed from death to life, as John 5 says.

​

The Earthly Sanctuary​

1 Then indeed, even the first covenant had ordinances of divine service and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was prepared: the first part, in which was the lampstand, the table, and the showbread, which is called the [a]sanctuary; 3 and behind the second veil, the part of the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of All, 4 which had the golden censer and the ark of the covenant overlaid on all sides with gold, in which were the golden pot that had the manna, Aaron’s rod that budded, and the tablets of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat. Of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

Limitations of the Earthly Service​

6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various [b]washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

The Heavenly Sanctuary​

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

The Mediator’s Death Necessary​

16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every [g]precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are [h]purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no [i]remission.

Greatness of Christ’s Sacrifice​

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

 

[The Learner]

There are also 2 judgements.
As believers, we will not face the white throne judgement (the final judgement)
At our death, we come before the judgement seat of Christ. 2 Cor 5

When Christ says we will not come under judgement but have passed from death into life, he is referring to the final judgement, we are immune from that.

John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

I know the gospel accounts read like it is all the same judgement at that time, but we have already been judged not guilty by God and Christ and so are not under judgement at that final judgement.

I think we will be witnesses of the final judgement, so will be there but not subject to it. We will be pointed out as the group that has eternal life, while the others will be cast into the fire. All will witness so they must all be present. The final judgement also finalizes the end of the age for us and the others to all of the universe. For believers the final judgement has no power of condemnation, it formalizes that we are not under judgement of destruction,

wow icon is a good thing right?

"
The great white throne judgment is described in Revelation 20:11-15 and is the final judgment prior to the lost being cast into the lake of fire. We know from Revelation 20:7-15 that this judgment will take place after the millennium and after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire where the beast and the false prophet are (Revelation 19:19-20; 20:7-10). The books that are opened (Revelation 20:12) contain records of everyone’s deeds, whether they are good or evil, because God knows everything that has ever been said, done, or even thought, and He will reward or punish each one accordingly (Psalm 28:4; 62:12; Romans 2:6; Revelation 2:23; 18:6; 22:12).

Also at this time, another book is opened, called the “book of life” (Revelation 20:12). It is this book that determines whether a person will inherit eternal life with God or receive everlasting punishment in the lake of fire. Although Christians are held accountable for their actions, they are forgiven in Christ and their names were written in the “book of life from the creation of the world” (Revelation 17:8). We also know from Scripture that it is at this judgment when the dead will be “judged according to what they had done” (Revelation 20:12) and that “anyone’s name” that is not “found written in the book of life” will be “thrown into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:15).

The fact that there is going to be a final judgment for all men, both believers and unbelievers, is clearly confirmed in many passages of Scripture. Every person will one day stand before Christ and be judged for his or her deeds. While it is very clear that the great white throne judgment is the final judgment, Christians disagree on how it relates to the other judgments mentioned in the Bible, specifically, who will be judged at the great white throne judgment.

Some Christians believe that the Scriptures reveal three different judgments to come. The first is the judgment of the sheep and the goats or a judgment of the nations (Matthew 25:31-36). This takes place after the tribulation period but prior to the millennium; its purpose is to determine who will enter the millennial kingdom. The second is a judgment of believers’ works, often referred to as the “judgment seat [bema] of Christ” (2 Corinthians 5:10). At this judgment, Christians will receive degrees of reward for their works or service to God. The third is the great white throne judgment at the end of the millennium (Revelation 20:11-15). This is the judgment of unbelievers in which they are judged according to their works and sentenced to everlasting punishment in the lake of fire.

Other Christians believe that all three of these judgments speak of the same final judgment, not of three separate judgments. In other words, the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-15 will be the time that believers and unbelievers alike are judged. Those whose names are found in the book of life will be judged for their deeds in order to determine the rewards they will receive or lose. Those whose names are not in the book of life will be judged according to their deeds to determine the degree of punishment they will receive in the lake of fire. Those who hold this view believe that Matthew 25:31-46 is another description of what takes place at the great white throne judgment. They point to the fact that the result of this judgment is the same as what is seen after the great white throne judgment in Revelation 20:11-15. The sheep (believers) enter into eternal life, while the goats (unbelievers) are cast into “eternal punishment” (Matthew 25:46).

Whichever view one holds of the great white throne judgment, it is important to never lose sight of the facts concerning the coming judgment(s). First, Jesus Christ will be the judge, all unbelievers will be judged by Christ, and they will be punished according to the works they have done. The Bible is very clear that unbelievers are storing up wrath against themselves (Romans 2:5) and that God will “give to each person according to what he has done” (Romans 2:6). Believers will also be judged by Christ, but since Christ’s righteousness has been imputed to us and our names are written in the book of life, we will be rewarded, but not punished, according to our deeds. Romans 14:10-12 says that we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ and that each one of us will give an account to God." What is the Great White Throne Judgment? | GotQuestions.org

 

[The Learner]

There are also 2 judgements.
As believers, we will not face the white throne judgement (the final judgement)
At our death, we come before the judgement seat of Christ. 2 Cor 5

When Christ says we will not come under judgement but have passed from death into life, he is referring to the final judgement, we are immune from that.

John 5:24
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

I know the gospel accounts read like it is all the same judgement at that time, but we have already been judged not guilty by God and Christ and so are not under judgement at that final judgement.

I think we will be witnesses of the final judgement, so will be there but not subject to it. We will be pointed out as the group that has eternal life, while the others will be cast into the fire. All will witness so they must all be present. The final judgement also finalizes the end of the age for us and the others to all of the universe. For believers the final judgement has no power of condemnation, it formalizes that we are not under judgement of destruction,

Thanks daniel

 

[Scott Downey]

Thanks daniel

One reason I think we are judged separately is this verse here, so the final judgement is definitely not a judgement of life or death for us as it is for the wicked unbelieving.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

And that all the believers, Christ raises up at His second appearing. So there is a resurrection of the righteous and the wicked, but the righteous reign with Christ 1000 years first, so a separation in time.

Plus the final judgement is a judgement of life versus death, there is no concept there of rewards, like the judgement seat of Christ in 2 Corinthians 5, and we already have been justified by faith and have eternal life, so that judgment is on of rewards or no rewards

There is the order of resurrection, which for Christ and us includes our glorification. Christ is first, then those who are His at His coming, are resurrected and given glorified bodies.

then comes the end which is the final judgement, and even death is thrown in the lake of fire at the end. The resurrection of the wicked is not even mentioned, but it happens at the end when death is also ended as the last enemy to be destroyed.

1 Cor 15
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.

If you think there is a thousand year reign, with death destroyed at the end, the final judgement is contemporaneous with the judgement of the wicked where death is thrown into the fire at the same time they are.

The other concern is the way this is written, 'And I saw the dead', well we though are alive in Christ, and have eternal life when we believe in Him, and not the dead who are standing here now. Plus we were raised up at Christs' second appearing and been given glorified bodies like He has, so we can not be the dead..

Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened.

Anyhow, we will find out when it happens.

 

[Scott Downey]

1 John 3, tells us we shall be like Him when HE is revealed (second appearing we are all changed to have glorified bodies like HE has)

Behold what manner of love the Father has bestowed on us, that we should be called children of [a]God! Therefore the world does not know [b]us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

 

[Phoneman777]

Is anyone willing to take a firm hold of those questions, answer them, without changing the meaning of words in order to harmonize with preconceived opinions? Anyone? They aren't trick questions. Just require some honesty and integrity to get real answers without circumventing the issue.

One person had stones to answer the wages of sin is indeed death, and once dead he ends up in eternal torment - but Jesus' death didn't land Him in eternal torment? That makes Jesus die a "different" death than the sinners dies, so how in the world could that be equal to divine justice? It's like trying to bail me out of an American jail with Spanish pesetas. Not going to happen.

They won't abandon their Religion of Exclusivity for anything - they're looking forward to watching their enemies roast for eternity so they can laugh and howl at their former tormentors.

They don't realize that it's the in the heart of SATAN to torment people forever, while the heart of God is mercy, both to save sinners and blot out of existence those who refused His love, knowing that allowing them to exist eternally would only perpetuate for eternity their terminal disease of sinful misery.

 

[Jack]

Symbolism, there is no literal eternal suffering. The lake of fire = eternal destruction.

I quote God and you give your opinion. Who should I believe? I'll stick with Jesus!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Keiw]

I quote God and you give your opinion. Who should I believe? I'll stick with Jesus!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Here is what Jesus teaches--Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life, FEW are the ones finding it. For MANY have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to DESTRUCTION.--2Peter 3:9--God doesnt desire any to be destroyed.
Gods justice scales make a literal eternal suffering impossible, it is symbolic.

 

[Jack]

Here is what Jesus teaches--Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life, FEW are the ones finding it. For MANY have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to DESTRUCTION.--2Peter 3:9--God doesnt desire any to be destroyed.
Gods justice scales make a literal eternal suffering impossible, it is symbolic.

Well then maybe your eternal life is only symbolic.

 

[Keiw]

Well then maybe your eternal life is only symbolic.

Its a promise from God, everlasting life.

 

[Jack]

Its a promise from God, everlasting life.

When Kingdom Hall doesn't like Scripture it's "symbolic".

 

[Brakelite]

One reason I think we are judged separately is this verse here, so the final judgement is definitely not a judgement of life or death for us as it is for the wicked unbelieving.

You are right. Judgement begins in the house of God. We are judged before Jesus comes... Otherwise the angels won't know who are His. The sheep and goats are divided before He comes, the sheep are taken, the goats are left. ... Behold i come quickly, and My reward is with Me to give to every man according as His work shall be..

 

[[email protected]]

If the wages of sin is death...
and "death" = "eternal torment"...
what would Jesus have to do to take our place and pay our penalty for sin?

That's right...Jesus would have to be eternally tormented. Is He presently suffering eternal torment?

No, He didn't suffer "eternal torment" - He suffered death...which is exactly what Scripture says is the wages of sin.

And because the Father knew He was not guilty of sin, He was able to raise Jesus up after Jesus suffered death, unlike the impenitent wicked who deserve the death they will die which is the Second Death, an eternal death, a death from which there will be no resurrection.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HELL.

There is no such thing as eternal torment in the Bible. It exists only in pagan mythology and fear-mongering ideology.

The root word for HELL doesn't come from Holy Writ. It's actually derived from the norse demi-god HEL who was said to be the female guardian of the underworld. HELL is a person in pagan myth, not a place. The root word for HADES is actually the Greek god of the underworld. Again the term refers to a person, not a place. Gehenna was the site of the pagan god MOLECH to whom the Hebrews once sacrificed their living children. Again, the term refers to a pagan personality, not a place. The use of these terms was employed by early translators of Hebrew & Greek text so as to employ fear-mongering attitudes to gain and keep church members. It is not consistent with Biblical context.

The notion of an afterlife or underworld began to infect western ideology in the days of ancient Egypt. It was thought that certain incantations and ceremonies would preserve not only the body but some aspect of the human personality. According to God's Word, there is no part of a human that survives physical death. Ergo, there is no eternal torment.

Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless. (Ecclesiastes 3:19)

In the first book of the Bible, God tells us that we are finite, that death is the end of the story for all of us.

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; (Genesis 6:3a)

In order for one to justify the false dogma of eternal torment one must ALTER the meaning and definition of common words. Words are used to teach truth but words can also be used to twist it into doctrines of demons. Death becomes something other than the end of physical life and the Lake of Fire assumes a quality fire never has in nature. God uses these words to teach physical and spiritual truth. Fire consumes everything as does the grave. There is no suggestion in any definition of the words 'death' and 'fire' that they mean something other than their simplest meaning - absolute termination and utter consumption.

The Old Testament speaks only of SHEOL, a Hebrew word that simply means death and/or the grave. Nothing happens there because death is the absolute cessation of life. But the words of fear-mongering persons suggest something God did not intend. It suggests a terrible experience that goes beyond that which God alone can grant. It suggests humans are endowed with some quality of personality that survives physical death. The Bible denies this....

"who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light" (1 Tim 6:16)

Only God is immortal.

Thus the assertion that there is a permanent quality of human life is false. Indeed even the terms used to describe it derives from pagan religions. But what does the Bible teach us?

In chapter one of book one, the Bible tells us that Eve & Adam were endowed at their creation with the image of God. Two chapters later we are told that both creatures LOST the image because they SINNED against God. It is this LOST IMAGE that condemns humanity to death.

"The soul that sins shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4) "The wages of SIN is death." (Romans 6:23)

Much has been written and argued about the IMAGE OF GOD, but after Genesis chapter 3 we do NOT see it mentioned again until we are informed as to where it resides. It resides in Christ Jesus, NOT US.

"The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation." Colossians 1:15

Therefore it is Christ Jesus who alone possesses immortal life and it is HE who gives it to those who accept HIM. Inasmuch as we are born again (1 Peter 1:23) in Christ Jesus, who cannot lie and who keeps His promises, we can hope for immortal life.

Immortal life is in Christ, NOT in us.

The nature of humanity is to DIE. That's the end of the story for those who refuse God's good mercy toward us, but it isn't necessarily our destiny. For God does not desire that anyone should die, but that all should come to repentance and be saved. Unfortunately as Jesus told us, most will deny and reject this most gracious gift.

Can a dead man be punished for anything? He cannot for the dead know nothing.
Can a living person enjoy the life God gives? As long as God lives so do His promises of immortality for those who accept Christ as their savior.

Nowhere in the Bible is it even remotely suggested that SINNERS are granted immortal life - even for the purpose of punishment.

SINNERS DIE. Therefore the stories of eternal torment are fear-mongering myth.

The IMAGE OF GOD is the source of immortality for humans. Christ alone possesses this quality. Inasmuch as we take Christ into our lives He shall share it with us.

Everybody else dies like dogs and cockroaches.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Jack]

"Was Jesus Eternally Tormented?"

Honestly that makes no sense at all! That sounds like Copeland heresy. Maybe Muslim?

 

[Jack]

Here is what Jesus teaches--Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life, FEW are the ones finding it. For MANY have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to DESTRUCTION.--2Peter 3:9--God doesnt desire any to be destroyed.
Gods justice scales make a literal eternal suffering impossible, it is symbolic.

You shouldn't believe Kingdom Hall. Stick with the Bible.

Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.

You can't have eternal life without eternal punishment. No matter what Kingdom Hall says. Are you gonna follow Kingdom Hall to Hell fire?

 

[Jack]

Its a promise from God, everlasting life.

You can't pick just the parts you like! Have you read the warning in Rev about taking away things that God said?

Revelation 22 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

And that ain't good!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Satan LOVES it when his messengers tell us there is no everlasting Hell fire!

 

[Keiw]

You shouldn't believe Kingdom Hall. Stick with the Bible.

Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.

You can't have eternal life without eternal punishment. No matter what Kingdom Hall says. Are you gonna follow Kingdom Hall to Hell fire?

Symbolism for the following---- As each new day dawns in Gods kingdom, those destroyed in the lake of fire miss each day, miss each day of Gods love, it never ends. Likened to be an eternal suffering. They traded 70-100years of an unrepented sinful life and will miss trillions x trillions x trillions, etc of never ending years of life, never sick, not aging like now, never without.
Gods justice scales = perfect balance-an eye for an eye God taught. Uncorruptable.--So for 70-100 years of an unrepented sinful life God could not nor would not condemn one to trillions x trillions x trillions of never ending years of suffering. There is no balance in that scenario. Only a sadist would create such a reality. God set before all-(Deut 30:19= LIFE or DEATH) both will be everlasting.

 

[Keiw]

You can't pick just the parts you like! Have you read the warning in Rev about taking away things that God said?

Revelation 22 If anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

And that ain't good!

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Satan LOVES it when his messengers tell us there is no everlasting Hell fire!

its just the opposite. He loves it when false religion shows God to be the worst sadist ever by lying about him because they live in darkness and cannot understand reality.