What you quote pertains to the one and only coming of Christ. For the millionth time: where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord? Also, where is your rapture in Revelation?
More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism
- Thread starter WPM
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What you quote pertains to the one and only coming of Christ. For the millionth time: where in Scripture teaches a rapture of the Church, followed by seven-year tribulation, followed by a third coming of the Lord? Also, where is your rapture in Revelation?
The Light
Well-Known Member
What car part fixes your transmission, fixes your motor and gets you 30 miles a gallon.
Already quoted in Revelation 3 and 4. And of course there is the rapture at the 6th seal and then there is the first fruits rapture of the 144,000.
How is it you see only one coming when the Word clearly says the gathering from heaven and earth is before wrath and then he comes again at the end of wrath. And of course there is the pretribulation rapture that you can't seem to comprehend that He is coming when you think not. So he doesn't draw you the road map to pinpoint His coming AS YOU REQUIRE, before you will believe the written Word of God. And then of course there is the 144,000 that he comes to the earth for that you overlook. Pretty much you are clueless and spread blindness like a cancer. Time runs short and you are blind to it.
More avoidance. Quote and highlight your future rapture in Revelation 3 and 4 please. Stop avoiding. Also, where is your 7-year trib in Revelation?
Last edited:
The Light
Well-Known Member
Where is a future rapture mentioned here? Nowhere
Where is a 7-years trib mentioned here? Nowhere.
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned here? Nowhere.
Where is a future rapture mentioned here? Nowhere.
Where is a 7-years trib mentioned here? Nowhere.
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned here? Nowhere.
The Light
Well-Known Member
You know you have not addressed and identified the rapture and 7-year trib in these passages. The reader knows it. If you had clear Scripture, you would be happy highlighting it and explaining it. Stop avoiding. Stop acting ignorant.
Where is a 7-year trib mentioned in Revelation 6 or anywhere else in Revelation?
The Light
Well-Known Member
How many times am I going have to post, show me a car part that fixes the transmission, the motor and gets 30 miles a gallon. Are you not able to deduce the comparison of what you are asking? Maybe I need to add the car part also prevents tooth decay.
Can you find anything. You sure can't see more than one coming of Jesus which you have to be totally blind not to see there is more than one coming.
Daniel 9
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The events of Daniel 9 occur in the 7 seals. I realize that there's not a snowballs chance that you will understand this but that's the result of blindness and ignorance. And we are warned about ignorance.
You should be watching and be ready for the soon arrival of the master, as instructed, and yet you continue in this folly. I really have wasted too much time on one that has no interest in seeking the truth. I wish I could help you, but as I said, I can't get the blind to see. If you would take the time to ask the Father what is true, He might have mercy as the time draws near.
This shows how lacking Pretrib is. It has no biblical-proof-texts. All you are left with is this type of smokescreen.
Again, nothing of evidential worth.
There is absolutely no mention of a rapture or a 3rd coming in Daniel 9. It is a historic passage already long-fulfilled. This truly sums up Pretrib hermeneutics. With this mode of interpretation, you could literally make the Bible say whatever you wanted to say. There is no mention of a 7-year trib or antichrist. You again force your opinions into the text. There is no other rapture text that teaches a 7-year trib following or any prolonged trib period. Neither Thessalonians or Revelation show a rapture followed by a trib period. This is elaborate would man-made invention.
Everyone is apparently blind who disagrees with Pretrib. That speaks for itself. Ad hominem is your default. Pretribbers must run from discussions because they have no Scripture that teaches their error.
Last edited:
I was waiting for this and Rev 4:1, and after much squeezing you finally came up with it.
Where is a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Revelation 3:10?
Revelation 3:7-13: “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.”
Firstly, you are butchering the text to support your false teaching.
- There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You force that into the text.
- There is no mention of a rapture in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
- There is no mention of a 7-year tribulation in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
- There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. You force that into the text.
Secondly, you make Christ out to be a liar. According to what you have been taught, He promised the Philadelphians a rapture to heaven to preserve them from undergoing a 7-years trib as a reward for their faithfulness, but, failed to carry through. They all went to the grave, without experiencing this.
If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experienced a rapture 2,000 years ago.
Thirdly, if one is to read this portion of Scripture in its most straight-forward and literal way it seems clear that this is specifically speaking to the local church in Philadelphia (Asia Minor) in A.D. 96. There is no way you would naturally relate it to some end-time global Church prior to the coming of the Lord.
You totally negate the relevance of this passage to the literal Philadelphian Church 2000 years ago, who are long gone. You conveniently divert that promise to the Church generally before the coming of Christ to support your doctrine. This is twisting Scripture. This is wrong and done because you have nothing to support your teaching in the Book.
Fourthly, you do not just err in your understanding of God's Word, you also show an ignorance of history. There was heavy persecution of the early Church throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned.
Pretrib seems to ignore the severity of the hour the seven churches in Asia Minor found themselves in. The Church was being assaulted on all sides – both secularly and religiously. On one side the Roman Empire was on a vicious unrelenting campaign of genocide to obliterate the Gospel witness. The severity of the persecution depended on the area each church was located and the attitude of those enforcing the turmoil. Countless believers throughout the world were being destroyed under the jackboot of Rome. In a religious side-show the Jews were resisting the Church at every step.
The same persecution that the Philadelphian church was to be protected from was the very same trial that the church at Smyrna would have to endure. The Lord said to the church at Smyrna in Revelation 2:10, reference the approaching first century trial, “Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”
Why do Dispensationalists not apply this passage to the entire Church at the end? Remember Smyrna was specifically told that it would go through a period of distinct tribulation. It seems like Pretrib cherry picks a church out of the 7 that suits its theology and then places it in an end-time scenario. The reason is that this message does not fit the carefully constructed Pretrib paradigm. The message to the Philadelphia church (and the Pretrib interpretation of the same) suits their paradigm.
Fifthly, the Philadelphian Christians are promised protection “from the hour of temptation” on the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God.
Preservation in the midst of trial is a common promise for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to preserve His elect people in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.
The same assurance that we find in Revelation 3:10 is found in our Lord’s Prayer in John 17:15 (only it was written a few years before). The comparison cannot be lightly dismissed as both were penned by the same author. Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil.”
Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil. This is the same thought that Christ is presenting in Revelation 3:10. Interestingly, a careful comparison between these two passages reveals the remarkable similarity in their import and word construction.
“keep [Gr. tēreō] them from [Gr. ek] the evil” (John 17:15)
“keep [Gr. tēreō] thee from [Gr. ek] the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:10)
In fact, these are the only two places in Scripture that the Greek words tēreō and ek are found together. Not only do these two passages not teach an escape for the Church from this world, but Christ plainly and succinctly proclaims the contrary. Whatever “the hour of temptation” represented to the Philadelphian church they knew that they would be sheltered from its awful throes. There is no indication that they anticipated that blessing to involve being beamed out of the Roman Empire.
Last edited:
Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.
Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”
There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.
Nowhere in this chapter do we find any description of, or allusion to, the rapture of the saints. Rather, in contrast, it is a record of the catching away of John “in the Spirit” (4:2) to receive further revelation. In fact, chapters 4 & 5 in their totality outline a detailed description, by John, of the heavenly court and the One who sits upon the throne. Moreover, nowhere in this chapter is there even the slightest allusion to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ – generally.
(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?
(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”
The Light
Well-Known Member
You expect a verse that shows a rapture, a 7 year tribulation, and third coming of Christ. Gee that's a pretty big list when the master says that you are not going to know when He is coming. I wonder why all the things that you request cannot be found in one verse.
Matthew 24
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Here are a few comings Jesus that you seem to be blind to.
The Church is raptured to heaven before the seals are opened. The 1st six seals are the tribulation period. You can go to Matthew 24 and go right down the seals. The 1st four seals, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.( Matthew 24:5-8). The fifth seal is the great tribulation. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the day of the Lord. This is the second harvest. This is the coming of Jesus at the end of Matthew 24 which is also shown in Mark 13
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
This gathering from heaven and earth results in the great multitude in Rev 7. So the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal and Matthwe 24 is not the coming of Jesus at the end of Revelation 19.
So Jesus comes in at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins with the opening of the 7th seal. Trumpet 1-7 are the wrath of God. Jesus has returned and armageddon is over as the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
So wrath is over, there is judgement and it is over and that's the end of the story.
You want to see another view of the same story with different details? Revelation 13 and 14 puts you back in the seals. In Revelation 14 we see 144,000 first fruits which are the first fruits of the second harvest. We see Jesus return for these first fruits and redeem them from the earth. There's a coming you are missing.
Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
We see the fifth seal, the great tribulation here.
Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
That is followed by the coming of Jesus which is the 6th seal. Which is also the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24
Rev 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
At the end of the harvest, we see the wrath of God is getting ready to begin.
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
This is the same timeframe of as you see at the 6th seal when wrath is getting ready to begin.
Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Then you have the vials of wrath which happen in the same time frame as the trumpets. Then you have Jesus retuning with the armies of heaven which include all that have been raptured there.
So to conclude we have the coming of Jesus for His Church before the seals are opened. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God turns His attention to His Chosen. Jesus then returns for the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. The Jesus returns for that harvest at the 6th seal (Matthew 24, Revelation 14). Then Jesus returns at the end of wrath with the armies of heaven. That's four comings and if he comes for the dead in Christ separately from the alive believers as suspect, that will be 5 comings..............and you can only find one?
You need to study up fast. You are currently in the camp of those that say "where is the promise of His coming"? You need to be in the camp of those that are watching and ready, for the son of man comes in an hour that you think not.
Daniel 9 tells of the final week, the time of Jacobs trouble. That is the very week that most can see in the 7 seals and Matthew 24. I realize you are unable to see these things.
God tells you He is coming when you think not, and you can't find exactly when He is coming in scriptures? And that's your proof that He is not going to do what He says. Oh the blindness.
It is not in 1 verse; it is not in 10 verses. It is not in the Bible. That is why you cannot show it.
All orthodox Christians believe He is coming. This proves nothing.
Here are a few comings Jesus that you seem to be blind to.
There are not multiple comings of Jesus, as you claim, but one final future coming. There are several recaps in Revelation that cover the same last days intra-Advent era and that culminate with the one final future climactic return of Christ. The detail is the same.
The only way you can deny the correlation and comparison between the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials is bias theology that requires you to deny the evidence.
As a former Pretribber, and as a former Police Officer, I am convinced that the Amil Idealist view (that of 7 recaps in Revelation) is biblically and evidently compelling. Please compare. By comparing the seven trumpets to the seven vials we see a remarkable detailed, yet symbolic, picture of God’s sovereign dealings with wickedness and the wicked. It relates to the period sandwiched between Christ’s two Advents since he made a show openly of the devil at Calvary. In comparing the two, we view the same events from slightly different camera angles. Although, coming from divergent angles, the parallels are clearly indisputable.
Note what is highlighted in blue, and see the parallel.
FIRST TRUMPET - upon the earth
Revelation 8:7-13 says, “The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”
The wrath poured out in the first trumpet is specifically directed “upon the earth” – or upon the land. The character of the wrath is described as “hail and fire mingled with blood” The consequence of this action is that the “third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.”
FIRST VIAL - upon the earth
Revelation 16:2-9 says, “And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.”
The first vial is also directed “upon the earth” however our attention is here brought to the consequence for the inhabitants of the land rather than the land itself. It also proves that the mark of the beast is not some last-of-the-last-days phenomenon; it has been around since Cain.
SECOND TRUMPET - upon the sea
Revelation 8:8-9 says, “And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.”
The wrath poured out in the second trumpet comes in the form of what is described as, “as it were a great mountain burning” which is cast into “the sea.” This event causes the third part of the sea to turn to blood. The consequence being that “the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.” Thus we see that a third part of the fish life is destroyed in this incident. Furthermore, the third part of the ships that were in the sea are destroyed.
SECOND VIAL - upon the sea
Revelation 16:3 says, “And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.”
The second vial is also poured out upon the sea again causing it to become as blood. However, instead of addressing the creatures in the sea or even the ships upon the sea, this passage looks at the souls (or human beings) in the sea. We learn that, “every living soul died in the sea.” This does not in any way contradict the parallel with the second trumpet as it is worth noting here that animals or fish life don’t have souls.
The result of this catastrophic judgment is that:-
1. Every living soul died in the sea.
2. The third part of the creatures which were in the sea died
3. The third part of the ships were destroyed
I believe there is a clear distinction between all three.
THE THIRD TRUMPET - upon the rivers and fountains of waters
Revelation 8:10-11 says, “And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters (the nations) became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”
The judgment of the third trumpet, in the form of a great star, falls upon “the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.” We are again reminded that the source from whence this judgment came is “from heaven.”
Wormwood is a poisonous plant of great bitterness which is alluded to from time to time in Scripture. It is a substance that can be drank and is repeatedly given to men as a means of judgment. It is always employed in Scripture in the context of bitterness, sorrow and calamity.
Lamentations3:15 says, “He hath filled me with bitterness, he hath made me drunken with wormwood.”
Jeremiah 23:15 says, “Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall.”
It is interesting that when this judgment is poured out in the third trumpet it is directed towards the source of mans drinking water - the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.
Regardless of the symbolic nature of this usage, the consequence of this judgment is that the waters become undrinkable. This passage says that “the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.”
THIRD VIAL - upon the rivers and fountains of waters
Revelation 16:4-7 says, “And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. And I heard the angel of the waters (the nations) say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.”
Whilst the third vial confirms that the judgment is directed towards “the rivers and fountains of waters,” the third trumpet details the fact that this judgment poisons “the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters.” The third vial, however, explains how this judgment causes the “the rivers and fountains of waters” to become “blood.” The vial and the trumpet here, in agreement, describe how a large part of the world’s drinking water becomes undrinkable.
Finally, the third vial outlines the reason why the waters are turned to blood, explaining, “For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.”
FORTH TRUMPET - upon the sun
Revelation 8:12-13 says, “And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise. And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!”
FOURTH VIAL - upon the sun
Revelation 16:8-9 says, “And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.”
The forth vial concentrates solely upon the greater light the sun, with its pre-eminent light, describing how God smites it and employs it “to scorch men” with “great heat.” This results in the damned blaspheming “the name of God”
Significantly, the fourth angel, of the fourth trumpet, looks ahead to the impending final three trumpets and cries, “Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!” The worst is still yet to come.
FIFTH VIAL - the followers of anti-Christ afflicted with grievous pain
Revelation 16:10-11 says, “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent); and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.”
SIXTH TRUMPET – a catastrophic final battle emanating from that great river Euphrates
Revelation 9:14-21: “Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone. By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths. For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.”
Here we see modern day armoury described in 1st century language. How else would even the most meticulous of disciples describe a modern day tank or a modern day battlefield. How else could he express to early believers a future scene which was amazing to his eyes.
The casualty list is unprecedented in modern day warfare when the “third part of men” are slain.
SIXTH VIAL – a catastrophic final battle
Revelation 16:12-16 says, “And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of [1] the dragon, (Satan) and out of the mouth of [2] the beast, and out of the mouth of [3] the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty."
The reading finishes with an admonition to the reader, saying, “Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.”
Whilst it would be possible to surmise that the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent ) is ‘all those who belong to the devil’, Revelation 20 seems to disprove that possibility as the beast (the anti-Christ system of this world - intra-Advent ) precedes (verse 10) all those who are not found within the book of life (verse 20).
Last edited:
SEVENTH TRUMPET - the end!
Revelation 10:1-4 declares, describing the seventh trumpet, “And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth, And cried with a loud voice, as when a lion roareth: and when he had cried, seven thunders uttered their voices. And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.”
The symbolism and authority surrounding this great heavenly angel proves beyond a doubt that it is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ and a picture of His glorious Second Coming. We will the symbolism shortly.
Revelation 10:5-7 says of the Second Advent and the concluding last trumpet, “And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.”
There is clearly a major dilemma here for you those who take Revelation to be a literal chronological unfolding of last day events. They must surely concede, if they are going to be consistent with their view that everything after Revelation 11 (which also makes reference to the seventh trumpet) is in the realm of eternity and the after-life. After all Revelation 10 plainly records that with this particular event “there should be time no longer.” For those who would lightly dismiss this important narrative as anything other than a magnificent picture of the Lord Jesus Christ and His glorious Second Coming, they do foolishly ignore the great wealth of explicit and consistent end-time teaching on this subject and divorce the undoubted harmony of this chapter from the rest of New Testament prophetic teaching.
We must first of all recognise, this is the second of seven similar symbolic parallels relating to intra-advent period, each of which take us up to the one final future all-consummating Coming of Christ (the day of God’s wrath) and the end of the world (when time shall undoubtedly be no more). This pattern of repeating the record of the same event from different angles is common throughout Scripture on most themes, none more that the glorious Coming of Christ.
The third parallel in Revelation 11:15 also makes reference to the seventh angel with the last trump, again being in complete agreement with consistent New Testament teaching (including the conclusion of the second parallel in Revelation 10) on this single, final, all-consummating nature of the Second Advent, saying, “And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.”
This is the end of the old temporal sin-cursed order and the introduction of the new eternal glorified order. Also, the undoubted finality surrounding the echo of the seventh trumpet proves beyond doubt that it is the last trump – the final trumpet sound for all mankind.
Revelation 11:18-19: “And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
SEVENTH VIAL - the end!
Rev 16:17-21: "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great."
Here we see a vivid record of Satan’s great concluding ‘devilish gathering’ just prior to the one final future Coming of Christ. The seventh vial portrays an unmistakable description of the all-consummating Second Coming.
Conclusion
Revelation actually agrees with every other book in the Bible and proves that there is only one future coming of Christ and that the end is the end. This is such a stark contrast to the Pretrib position that has no actual support in the wording of Revelation or in the rest of Scripture.
How many times do I need to rebut this and show you there is no rapture, no 7 years trib, or no 3rd coming in this chapter and how many times are you going to avoid the obvious?
1. Where is there any mention of the Church in Daniel 9.
2. Where is a tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
3. Where is a 7-year tribulation mentioned in Daniel 9?
4. Where is the rapture mentioned in Daniel 9?
5. Where is a 3rd coming mentioned in Daniel 9?
6. Where in Daniel 9 does it tell us to sever the last 7 years off from this harmonious prophecy relating to Christ’s 1st Coming and propel it 2,000 years into the unknown?
7. Where is antichrist mentioned in Daniel 9?
8. Where does it say that antichrist will make a peace covenant with Israel for 7 years in Daniel 9?
9. Where does it say that antichrist will break a peace covenant with Israel in Daniel 9?
10. Where are the tribulation saints mentioned in Daniel 9?
11. Where does it mention the rebuilding of a third temple?
All orthodox Christians believe He is coming. This proves nothing.
Once agin, keep your crude ad hominem to yourself.
You rip Jacob's troubles from its historic old covenant setting in the book of Jeremiah, and its clear description of the Babylonian exile, and translate it the First Advent, to support your end-time beliefs.
A careful and unbiased analyze of the biblical and contextual evidence relating to the book of Jeremiah will prove that Jacob’s trouble was an historic occurrence that has been long fulfilled in the Babylonian captivity. It describes a time when Jeremiah lived and when he was rebuking the rebellion of Israel that caused him to be driven from their homeland.
Jacob's trouble is shown to relate to Babylonian captivity which occurred back in Nebuchadrezzar’s day. Let us let the Bible speak for itself.
Jeremiah 1:3 “It came also in the days of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah the son of Josiah king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.”
Jeremiah 2:27-28: “they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us. But where are thy gods that thou hast made thee? let them arise, if they can save thee in the time of thy trouble: for according to the number of thy cities are thy gods, O Judah.”
Jeremiah 8:14-15: “assemble yourselves, and let us enter into the defenced cities, and let us be silent there: for the LORD our God hath put us to silence, and given us water of gall to drink, because we have sinned against the LORD. We looked for peace, but no good came; and for a time of health, and behold trouble! "
Jeremiah 11:10-12: “They are turned back to the iniquities of their forefathers, which refused to hear my words; and they went after other gods to serve them: the house of Israel and the house of Judah have broken my covenant which I made with their fathers. Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them. Then shall the cities of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem go, and cry unto the gods unto whom they offer incense: but they shall not save them at all in the time of their trouble.”
Jeremiah 14:7: “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name's sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee. O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble.”
Jeremiah 15:2: “And it shall come to pass, if they say unto thee, Whither shall we go forth? then thou shalt tell them, Thus saith the LORD; Such as are for death, to death; and such as are for the sword, to the sword; and such as are for the famine, to the famine; and such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.”
Jeremiah 20:4: “For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will make thee a terror to thyself, and to all thy friends: and they shall fall by the sword of their enemies, and thine eyes shall behold it: and I will give all Judah into the hand of the king of Babylon, and he shall carry them captive into Babylon, and shall slay them with the sword.”
Jeremiah 25:9-11: “Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years.”
Jeremiah 29:1: “Now these are the words of the letter that Jeremiah the prophet sent from Jerusalem unto the residue of the elders which were carried away captives, and to the priests, and to the prophets, and to all the people whom Nebuchadnezzar had carried away captive from Jerusalem to Babylon."
Jeremiah 30:3-7: “For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. "
Jeremiah 30:10-11: “Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.”
This was speaking of Babylon at the time. It reveals a consistent scriptural truth, the vessels God uses to chasten His people, He then casts away. It was only the last few books that were post-exile. As promised, Israel after chastisement was delivered. They were only one of many nations over the centuries. Today in this New Testament era, those who oppose God's only nation the Church face the same outcome.
Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”
Jeremiah 31:23: “Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; As yet they shall use this speech in the land of Judah and in the cities thereof, when I shall bring again their captivity; The LORD bless thee, O habitation of justice, and mountain of holiness.”
Jeremiah 32:44: “Men shall buy fields for money, and subscribe evidences, and seal them, and take witnesses in the land of Benjamin, and in the places about Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, and in the cities of the mountains, and in the cities of the valley, and in the cities of the south: for I will cause their captivity to return, saith the LORD.”
Jeremiah 51:1: “Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, and against them that dwell in the midst of them that rise up against me, a destroying wind; And will send unto Babylon fanners, that shall fan her, and shall empty her land: for in the day of trouble they shall be against her round about. Against him that bendeth let the archer bend his bow, and against him that lifteth himself up in his brigandine: and spare ye not her young men; destroy ye utterly all her host. Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, and they that are thrust through in her streets. For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel. Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence.”
If this was a legal case it would be a closed case. I believe it is absolutely water-tight. The lawyer would simply say: “I rest my case.” I don’t believe there is any question that an objective analyze of this book would come to any other conclusion than the fact that Jeremiah is describing Israel’s captivity in Babylon in his day. There is no mention (or context) of end-times in the prophet’s writings on this matter. Quite the opposite.
Last edited:
The Light
Well-Known Member
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
It's not.
The fact that He will keep those from the hours of testing shows He will come for His bride as promised.
There is a mention of the Church that is kept from the hour of testing that you seem to be looking forward to.
You believe that Christ comes only once more, at yet the text shows at least 4 more comings. Of course, the blindness can overlook what the Word says.
Your inability to understand the text is your error, not mine, nor any failing of Christ.
1+1=2. That's far as we can go today. Hmmm. I guess tomorrow we will go over 1+1=2 again.
1+1=2
1+1=2, I know that you think that we are covering too much ground, but dig in.
You can find the answer in Matthew 25: 1-13
The Light
Well-Known Member
John saw that door that no man can open and no man can shut.
He then saw 24 elders in heaven with crowns on their heads.
You can pretend that you can't see them, if you want. You can pretend that they aren't there before the seals are opened, if you want. Whatever your blindness allows to do, go for it. I'll be watching and waiting as instructed so He won't come on me as a theif. You are free to choose the path you want.
It was John being caught up 2000 years ago in the Spirit. Hello! There is no Pretrib future rapture there. I suspect you know that by your avoidance. That is a false Jesuit teaching you have been misled with. You couldn't even acknowledge and address the biblical arguments. So far you do not even have a rapture in Revelation to support your teaching. That is typical Pretrib. They do not need Scripture. The Left Behind novels are enough.
Similar threads
