More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

[Randy Kluth]

Why would I be reluctant as I already know what your response will be, and it will be incorrect? It's not my first rodeo.

Revelation 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Revelation 4
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.


Ok. I'm short of time, but I digress. Put some time into this long post that no one reads..... for the time is drawing very near.

The Church is raptured to heaven before the seals are opened. The 1st six seals are the tribulation period. You can go to Matthew 24 and go right down the seals. The 1st four seals, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.( Matthew 24:5-8). The fifth seal is the great tribulation. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the day of the Lord. This is the second harvest. This is the coming of Jesus at the end of Matthew 24 which is also shown in Mark 13

Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This gathering from heaven and earth results in the great multitude in Rev 7. So the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal and Matthwe 24 is not the coming of Jesus at the end of Revelation 19.

So Jesus comes in at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins with the opening of the 7th seal. Trumpet 1-7 are the wrath of God. Jesus has returned and armageddon is over as the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.

Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

So wrath is over, there is judgement and it is over and that's the end of the story.

You want to see another view of the same story with different details? Revelation 13 and 14 puts you back in the seals. In Revelation 14 we see 144,000 first fruits which are the first fruits of the second harvest. We see Jesus return for these first fruits and redeem them from the earth. There's a coming you are missing.

Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.


We see the fifth seal, the great tribulation here.

Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

That is followed by the coming of Jesus which is the 6th seal. Which is also the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24

Rev 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

At the end of the harvest, we see the wrath of God is getting ready to begin.

Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

This is the same timeframe of as you see at the 6th seal when wrath is getting ready to begin.

Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Then you have the vials of wrath which happen in the same time frame as the trumpets. Then you have Jesus retuning with the armies of heaven which include all that have been raptured there.

So to conclude we have the coming of Jesus for His Church before the seals are opened. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God turns His attention to His Chosen. Jesus then returns for the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. The Jesus returns for that harvest at the 6th seal (Matthew 24, Revelation 14). Then Jesus returns at the end of wrath with the armies of heaven. That's four comings and if he comes for the dead in Christ separately from the alive believers as suspect, that will be 5 comings..............and you can only find one?

You need to study up fast. You are currently in the camp of those that say "where is the promise of His coming"? You need to be in the camp of those that are watching and ready, for the son of man comes in an hour that you think not.

That's your take on it. My take on it is that the way you put it makes it appear to be a wholesale contradiction with "peace on earth" along with "total war." That's why I wished to clarify what Premills believe, because your depiction seemed to leave much to be desired.

To clarify one more time, the "goat infestation" is not an open sore, but a hidden disease. It is being kept under control. Goats are not given full vent to their inner sin impulses. They are governed as by a "rod of iron."

 

[WPM]

To clarify one more time, the "goat infestation" is not an open sore, but a hidden disease. It is being kept under control. Goats are not given full vent to their inner sin impulses. They are governed as by a "rod of iron."

Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the goat infestation is not an open sore, but a hidden disease. It is being kept under control. Goats are not given full vent to their inner sin impulses. They are governed as by a rod of iron"?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the goat infestation is not an open sore, but a hidden disease. It is being kept under control. Goats are not given full vent to their inner sin impulses. They are governed as by a rod of iron"?

I've quoted it many times for you.
Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.
Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Psalm 2.9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

 

[WPM]

I've quoted it many times for you.
Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.
Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Psalm 2.9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Hello! All of these passages prove Amil and all forbid Premil. They show a climactic destructive finality to Christ's return. Nowhere in Revelation 20 does it mention Jesus reigning with a rod of iron for 1000 years. That is another example of you adding on to Scripture. That is what Premils do.

So, what does the actual ruling entails when He appears? Sudden and total destruction. This is the consistent testimony of Scripture. The wicked are dashed to pieces. In your theology, you reward the ungodly by ushering billions of mortal rebels into inherit your so-called future "kingdom age." This is another invention of yours that you cannot prove in Scripture.

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). Psalm 2:1-12 teaches: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

You must ignore the Hebrew here to fit your thesis. The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The picture here is of a Shepherd with a rod. However, this is NO ordinary Shepherd with NO ordinary rod. The Shepherd here is Christ, and He is coming in His wrath at the end of this age to deal with the wicked thus the significance of the rod of iron. He is a jealous Shepherd who is finally coming to destroy those that have rejected Him. The shepherding is clearly associated with the FINAL separation.

There is no sense or mention of, or allowance for, survivors, as you imagine. All the wicked are destroyed. There is no one left to inherit this supposed future millennium full of sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease.

Revelation 2:25-27 says, “that which ye have already hold fast till I come. And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall poimaino [or shepherd] them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be ‘broken to shivers’ (suntribo): even as I received of my Father.”

There is no reward awaiting these proud Christ-rejecters. When a pot is broken with an iron rod it is destroyed, not subjugated. It's state changes completely and it does not continue in its prior state. When therefore the wicked are “broken,” “dashed to pieces,” “cut off,” then “the wicked shall be no more” at the second coming. This is not an exercise in rulership, subjugation, or discipline; but rather their total obliteration; thus, the meaning of the analogy of the rod and the pottery. The vivid picture painted is of the potter destroying an unwanted useless vessel.

The reference to poimanei in Revelation 2 is in the context of the general judgment at the end of the world and our exercising of power with Christ as He gives out His final sentence on the wicked. The overcoming Church (in Christ) is seen to be part of the final judging of the nations and seeing their final destruction “as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers.” The concluding phrase (“shall they be broken to shivers”) is actually taken from the lone Greek word suntribo (Strong’s 4937) meaning to crush completely, i.e. to shatter. This would suggest a total obliteration of the wicked at His appearing. The destructive wording found here in this passage in the Greek correlates perfectly with the wording used in Psalm 2 to describe the same thing in the Hebrew.

 

[WPM]

I've quoted it many times for you.
Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.
Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Psalm 2.9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Revelation 19:11-16: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

This is the end!

In this narrative He comes as the Lord of glory and removes all evil with the power of His Word. He returns as a man of war to destroy all those left behind. Revelation 19:11 says, “in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” The imagery surrounding Christ in this reading is that of wrath and judgment. The nations have missed their day of opportunity like the wicked in previous judgments, now they must face their deserved recompense of destruction and eternal punishment. Christ comes in glory and power to pour out wrath, and we learn "His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth. Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

The solemn language relates to the wrath of God being poured out on those left behind at the coming of Christ. This proves that “the nations” will not survive the wrath that emanates from Christ. How can any nation survive this closing destruction? This is final justice being meted out of the lost.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: He is coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted thousand-years age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

If you take this out of the Premil armory there is nothing left. The whole Premil doctrine hangs upon a thin frayed thread. It enjoys no other support in Scripture. It solely and exclusively depends on the correlation and chronology of the Rev 19-20, which clearly doesn't exist.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Hello! All of these passages prove Amil and all forbid Premil. They show a climactic destructive finality to Christ's return. Nowhere in Revelation 20 does it mention Jesus reigning with a rod of iron for 1000 years. That is another example of you adding on to Scripture. That is what Premils do.

I have limited time right now. But let me just show you how I view things, as opposed to the way you do. You see this coming rule as final, destroying all to leave no sin and no sinner. But I see this rule that is coming as a continuing period of grace in which rule takes place over sinners, restraining many sins.

The "iron" with which Christ comes to destroy opposition to his Kingdom is indicated in the following passages...

Jer 1.18 Today I have made you a fortified city, an iron pillar and a bronze wall to stand against the whole land—against the kings of Judah, its officials, its priests and the people of the land.

Jer 15.11 The Lord said,
“Surely I will deliver you for a good purpose;
surely I will make your enemies plead with you
in times of disaster and times of distress.
12 “Can a man break iron—
iron from the north—or bronze?
13 “Your wealth and your treasures
I will give as plunder, without charge,
because of all your sins
throughout your country.
14 I will enslave you to your enemies
in a land you do not know,
for my anger will kindle a fire
that will burn against you.”

Jer 28.14 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: I will put an iron yoke on the necks of all these nations to make them serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and they will serve him. I will even give him control over the wild animals.’”

Micah 4.13 “Rise and thresh, Daughter Zion, for I will give you horns of iron; I will give you hooves of bronze, and you will break to pieces many nations.” You will devote their ill-gotten gains to the Lord, their wealth to the Lord of all the earth."

For me, this rule is a period of time in which Christianity rules over the mortal world, restraining international warfare and rebellion against Christ. The "rod of iron" does break in pieces the rule of Antichrist, but this "iron rule" is indicated to also be a means of restraining God's enemies, instead of just destroying them.

Above you will see the "iron" used on God's enemies not to destroy them, but to enslave them, or to control them. I'll try to read the rest of your posts later.

 

[WPM]

I have limited time right now. But let me just show you how I view things, as opposed to the way you do. You see this coming rule as final, destroying all to leave no sin and no sinner. But I see this rule that is coming as a continuing period of grace in which rule takes place over sinners, restraining many sins.

The "iron" with which Christ comes to destroy opposition to his Kingdom is indicated in the following passages...

Jer 1.18 Today I have made you a fortified city, an iron pillar and a bronze wall to stand against the whole land—against the kings of Judah, its officials, its priests and the people of the land.

Jer 15.11 The Lord said,
“Surely I will deliver you for a good purpose;
surely I will make your enemies plead with you
in times of disaster and times of distress.
12 “Can a man break iron—
iron from the north—or bronze?
13 “Your wealth and your treasures
I will give as plunder, without charge,
because of all your sins
throughout your country.
14 I will enslave you to your enemies
in a land you do not know,
for my anger will kindle a fire
that will burn against you.”

Jer 28.14 This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: I will put an iron yoke on the necks of all these nations to make them serve Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and they will serve him. I will even give him control over the wild animals.’”

Micah 4.13 “Rise and thresh, Daughter Zion, for I will give you horns of iron; I will give you hooves of bronze, and you will break to pieces many nations.” You will devote their ill-gotten gains to the Lord, their wealth to the Lord of all the earth."

For me, this rule is a period of time in which Christianity rules over the mortal world, restraining international warfare and rebellion against Christ. The "rod of iron" does break in pieces the rule of Antichrist, but this "iron rule" is indicated to also be a means of restraining God's enemies, instead of just destroying them.

Above you will see the "iron" used on God's enemies not to destroy them, but to enslave them, or to control them. I'll try to read the rest of your posts later.

It doesn't matter what you think. It doesn't matter what I think. The text speaks for itself. Your theology always seems to be built upon your personal opinion. That is totally inadmissible, especially when the inspired text says the opposite to what you are alleging.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

What?! I am an Amillennialist and agree with WPM. You obviously misunderstood what I was saying. Read it again.

Sincerest apology. No excuse. God bless

 

[ScottA]

That is not Him coming in majesty and glory to the sky when every eye shall see Him.
That is not the general resurrection when all will bow the knee and confess Jesus Christ as Lord.
That is not the wicked being completely eliminated.
That is not the bondage of corruption ending (namely death and decay). The curse being finally lifted.
That is not when we are glorified.

If you think that you are totally deceived like every other Full Preterist.

You do not understand. The same One who said "every eye shall see", also said "the kingdom of God does not come by observation."

Nor have you understood the coming of Jesus in the "glory" of God whom is spirit, for I have said He has come in spirit and you deny it.

Your lack of observation by sight is rather unbelief, for which Jesus prayed, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" and for this reason "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Stop calling names.

 

[WPM]

You do not understand. The same One who said "every eye shall see", also said "the kingdom of God does not come by observation."

Nor have you understood the coming of Jesus in the "glory" of God whom is spirit, for I have said He has come in spirit and you deny it.

Your lack of observation by sight is rather unbelief, for which Jesus prayed, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" and for this reason "there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Stop calling names.

You have no clue what you are talking about. You deny the future coming of Christ. You deny the truth. I have no time for heresy or heretics. That is what you are and what you promote.

You need to repent!

 

[ScottA]

You have no clue what you are talking about. You deny the future coming of Christ. You deny the truth. I have no time for heresy or heretics. That is what you are and what you promote.

You need to repent!

In an attempt to remain kind... No, that is not what I am saying. Like I said, you do not understand.

Jesus outlined what would "shortly take place." What I have said is that He was correct, which Paul then elaborated to explain that in addition to Jesus coming "soon", he clarified saying, "but each one in his own order"--meaning both "soon" and "shortly" as well as in the future. Which is not Preterist (so you can stop calling names), but what has not yet been fully understood. But I have explained it as it is [actually] written.

 

[Randy Kluth]

So, what does the actual ruling entails when He appears? Sudden and total destruction. This is the consistent testimony of Scripture. The wicked are dashed to pieces. In your theology, you reward the ungodly by ushering billions of mortal rebels into inherit your so-called future "kingdom age." This is another invention of yours that you cannot prove in Scripture.

The same Shepherd who will comfort His sheep (the elect) will also destroy the goats (the wicked). Psalm 2:1-12 teaches: “Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.Thou shalt break (ra` a`) them with a rod of iron; ‘thou shalt dash them in pieces’ (naphats) like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

You must ignore the Hebrew here to fit your thesis. The Hebrew word ra` a` means to spoil: literally, by breaking to pieces; figuratively, to make (or be) good for nothing. The Hebrew word naphats here derives from a primitive root; to dash to pieces, or scatter.

The problem with this is, the sense of breaking into pieces nations that were Israel's enemies took place without total annihilation. You are advocating for total annihilation--something that happened with the Flood and with Sodom. But breaking into pieces with iron weapons did not annihilate nations--only fragmented their rule.

On the other hand, the coming rule of Christ and of Christians implies that not only will God's enemies have their own rule removed, but they will be *ruled over* by us. That means they will not only *not* be annihilated, but they will also have to suffer imposed law by Christ. That is, they must not be annihilated in order for them to be subject to God's law.

Any way you look at it, you have to make suppositions in order to draw a conclusion. If you wish to believe "breaking in pieces" means total annihilation, that's certainly one option. I opt for the idea that the coming rule of Christ will be an actual *reign*--reigning over people who would otherwise be God's enemies. They will be forced to submit by God's iron control.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Revelation 19:11-16: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

This is the end!

To "rule them with a rod of iron" implies, for me, that these enemies of God will continue to live in forced submission. Certainly, many of God's enemies will die at Armageddon. But the end result will be a world forced to submit to God's law. This is "ruling over people," and not *completely destroying the world.*

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

To destroy God's enemies is to kill many of them and to bring under subjection the rest. In the present age, Christ pointed us towards a perfect Kingdom that will impose its way upon an unruly world. If we take the side of the unruly world we will either die or be forced into servitude against our own carnal desires.

I've long ceased to debate you on these issues, since we only end up in worthless argumentation. My interest here is to explain how I deal with arguments that you make. And I'm certainly not saying they are all unworthy arguments. I wouldn't spend so much time if I thought your arguments were worthless. We're just setting things up for others to decide--you and I have our minds made up--at least for now.

 

[WPM]

The problem with this is, the sense of breaking into pieces nations that were Israel's enemies took place without total annihilation. You are advocating for total annihilation--something that happened with the Flood and with Sodom. But breaking into pieces with iron weapons did not annihilate nations--only fragmented their rule.

On the other hand, the coming rule of Christ and of Christians implies that not only will God's enemies have their own rule removed, but they will be *ruled over* by us. That means they will not only *not* be annihilated, but they will also have to suffer imposed law by Christ. That is, they must not be annihilated in order for them to be subject to God's law.

Any way you look at it, you have to make suppositions in order to draw a conclusion. If you wish to believe "breaking in pieces" means total annihilation, that's certainly one option. I opt for the idea that the coming rule of Christ will be an actual *reign*--reigning over people who would otherwise be God's enemies. They will be forced to submit by God's iron control.

The ruling over ("shepherding" in the Greek) that occurs when Jesus comes is simply the final judgement of the nations. We share in that. There is nowhere in Scripture that teaches that Jesus will rule in a future millennium over the wicked for a thousand years. The fact is: there are no wicked left to rule over. All flesh is destroyed in Revelation 19 (as in every other OT and NT second coming passage).

The reality is, Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recaps pertaining to the intra-Advent period.

 

[WPM]

To "rule them with a rod of iron" implies, for me, that these enemies of God will continue to live in forced submission. Certainly, many of God's enemies will die at Armageddon. But the end result will be a world forced to submit to God's law. This is "ruling over people," and not *completely destroying the world.*

To destroy God's enemies is to kill many of them and to bring under subjection the rest. In the present age, Christ pointed us towards a perfect Kingdom that will impose its way upon an unruly world. If we take the side of the unruly world we will either die or be forced into servitude against our own carnal desires.

I've long ceased to debate you on these issues, since we only end up in worthless argumentation. My interest here is to explain how I deal with arguments that you make. And I'm certainly not saying they are all unworthy arguments. I wouldn't spend so much time if I thought your arguments were worthless. We're just setting things up for others to decide--you and I have our minds made up--at least for now.

"Forced submission"? LOL. He is going to destroy the wicked with the brightness of His coming - none that are left behind shall escape (as in Noah's day and in Sodom)!!! They are going to be obliterated into pieces. He is going to Your obsession with wanting to reward billions of wicked mortal rebels by forcing them to inherit some invented "kingdom age" after the second coming causes you to not take Scripture literally. You spiritualize away so much Scripture, it is unbelievable. These 3 passages are a case-in-point. You explain the literal and straightforward detail away to fit your Premil teaching.

 

[WPM]

I've quoted it many times for you.
Rev 2.26 To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father.
Rev 19.15 Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty.

Psalm 2.9 You will break them with a rod of iron; you will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

Revelation 19:17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be a unique day in the annals of human history and unprecedented in its all-consummating character. Obviously, no other day has ever seen the end of the world and the final complete defeat of every last enemy of righteousness, truth and Almighty God. Neither has any other day seen the destruction of all wickedness by way of fire before. Notwithstanding, the Lord draws our specific attention to two notable days in human history to compare it with, and to fully illustrate the character and finality of this all-consummating day. These two particular days are familiar to most and are found in Holy Writ (both in the Old Testament), and give us an unparalleled insight into the nature, extent and detail of judgment on that impending last day. While, evidently there is no previous individual bygone historic example of a total global annihilation of the wicked by fire, these two individual days, when joined together, vividly portray what will occur on the final day of time. These two former days being (1) the day that Noah entered into the ark and (2) the day that Lot was rescued out of Sodom.

 

[APAK]

Revelation 19:17-18 continues, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

Please see that the wicked are destroyed by the sword of His voice. This is complete wholesale total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

The feasting part of the marriage supper of the Lamb is a symbolism depicted the destruction of the wicked. Why can this not be a symbolic depiction of the return of Christ and the events that accompany it (including the destruction of the wicked)?

The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

The whole thrust of this reading surrounds a climactic end to the world. Like the rest of Scripture, it records the complete rescue of the saints in the “marriage of the lamb” and the complete destruction of the wicked when the fowls consume the entire wicked left behind. The passage makes no allowance for goats-survivors in this great destruction passage or mortals squeezing into a supposed future millennium. This reading seems to fit in with the scriptural pattern of an all-consummating Coming - all the wicked being consumed.

The second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ will be a unique day in the annals of human history and unprecedented in its all-consummating character. Obviously, no other day has ever seen the end of the world and the final complete defeat of every last enemy of righteousness, truth and Almighty God. Neither has any other day seen the destruction of all wickedness by way of fire before. Notwithstanding, the Lord draws our specific attention to two notable days in human history to compare it with, and to fully illustrate the character and finality of this all-consummating day. These two particular days are familiar to most and are found in Holy Writ (both in the Old Testament), and give us an unparalleled insight into the nature, extent and detail of judgment on that impending last day. While, evidently there is no previous individual bygone historic example of a total global annihilation of the wicked by fire, these two individual days, when joined together, vividly portray what will occur on the final day of time. These two former days being (1) the day that Noah entered into the ark and (2) the day that Lot was rescued out of Sodom.

Well written and clear to even the casual Biblical enthusiast.

 

[WPM]

Well written and clear to even the casual Biblical enthusiast.

Thanks! The silence of Premils is deafening.

 

[APAK]

Thanks! The silence of Premils is deafening.

Yes, the rigidity of folks with set taught ideas over generations is alarming. They even look for a 3rd Temple worship!!

They forget that a great deal of scripture have embedded idioms and symbolic language written for that time, not for 21st century modern folks. These poor folks imagine literal wild sci-fi-like scenes of a literal fowls eating flesh etc....results that will never happen. When Christ 'returns' it will be SWIFT and DECISIVE without time to ponder, to end the age for good and return order into the Kingdom of God of the new heaven and earth. No future 1000 years for any human imagined experimentation with Christ and human rule over future generations. No more sin ever and no more humans in the flesh to sin and be tempted again.

 

[The Light]

Thanks! The silence of Premils is deafening.

It appears you live in a delusional world. You have yet to address all these coming of the Lord that are in scripture. How is it the that gathering is before the day of the Lord according to scripture and yet you claim He comes at the end of wrath only. Nothing you say agrees with scripture, simple as that.
2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.