More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism
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You should be sorry because you are promoting an extra-biblical doctrine that was conceived by the Jesuits. The first person who formulated this eschatology was a Jesuit named Ribera in 1591AD. He interpreted the book of Revelation suggesting an end-time personal antichrist, a rebuilt Babylon and a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem at the end of the Christian Era.
This doctrine began to fester within the system of Romanism which by now had a few dozen more erroneous and blasphemous doctrines introduced as biblical truths by its own leadership. But it wasn't until 1745AD that another Jesuit named Manuel de Lacunza y Diaz began to really distort the Scriptures through doctrines that perfectly fit the category of the kind of doctrines whose destructive results we are warned about by Paul. (2 Tim 4:3-4) .
Back in the 18th Century, there was a Spanish family living in Chile named the De Lacunzas. In 1731, they had a baby boy whom they named Manuel. After fifteen years at home, young Manuel boarded a ship bound for Spain. He wanted to join the holy orders of Romanism and become a Jesuit priest. Twenty-one years later, the Jesuits were expelled from Spain because of their brutality, and "Father" Manuel de Lucunza y Diaz was forced to leave the country. He made his new home in Imola, Italy, where he remained for the rest of his life. While in Imola, Lacunza claimed to be a converted Jew named "Rabbi Ben Ezra."
The Light
Well-Known Member
He does come in like manner only once. However...........he remains in the clouds in this coming.
Revelation 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
I just wonder what translation you are using because it seems like you are reading a different book.
This is the one and only coming of the Lord. There are several references to this lone event. There are several recaps of the same event. That is the pattern of the apocalypse. Where do you think the rapture is in Revelation?
There are multiple posts, with multiple Scriptures, from different posters above that you have ducked around. These expose the error of Pretrib.
The Light
Well-Known Member
I did not see anything that exposed that there will not be a rapture before the seals are opened and then God will turn His attention to Israel as promised. I see that you were unable to explain why Jesus remains in the clouds in Rev 14. He does not go to the earth but returns to heaven.
If you see any particular post that you would like me to address I will be happy to do so, but I saw nothing of value. I've got a lot of irons in the fire right now but will address anything that you consider the best proof you got.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
That is not Him coming in majesty and glory to the sky when every eye shall see Him.
That is not the general resurrection when all will bow the knee and confess Jesus Christ as Lord.
That is not the wicked being completely eliminated.
That is not the bondage of corruption ending (namely death and decay). The curse being finally lifted.
That is not when we are glorified.
If you think that you are totally deceived like every other Full Preterist.
Please remember: it is you that presented this detail as being biblical. I am simply requesting the biblical basis of your assumption. So far, you have come up with nothing. Can you present any Scripture that comes close to identifying this with a period after this age ("the last days") and before the age to come ("the NHNE")? Where in Revelation 20 even intimates this? Can you furnish us with any Scripture that details this scenario you are presenting?
Until you do, we can only conclude these are speculative extra-biblical assumptions.
- Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it say "the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
- Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?
- Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach Jesus will be "crowned king *on earth* in the promised Kingdom of God."
- Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it teach "human rebellion against God" will be "under better control than we now see it"?
- Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the New Testament does it mention a "kingdom age"?
The Light
Well-Known Member
No sir. The Church will be raptured before the seals are opened. The kings and priest in heaven in Rev 5 out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; is the Church in heaven. This is why the Church that was mentioned 19 times in the 1st three chapters of Revelation is not mentioned again until Rev 22.
The harvest in Revelation 14 is the Lord returning for the 12 tribes across the earth. This event occurs at the 6th seal. Only those in the nation of Israel that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers go through the wrath of God. Believers are not appointed to wrath.
Oh. Really? So there is a secret rapture somewhere in Revelation 4-5, followed by a trib period followed by a 3rd coming in Revelation 14 for Israel, followed by a another trib period, followed by a 4th coming in Revelation 19, followed by a future millennium, followed by a 5th coming for all the millennial mortal converts and in order to rescue them from the millennial earth - that flees away after Satan's little season?
Where is this rapture in Revelation 5?
The Light
Well-Known Member
Please quote the rapture detail in Revelation 3 and 4? I do understand your reluctance. But the burden of proof is on you. You made the claim.
So, Revelation 8-19 is not a period of tribulation but of just total destruction until your 4th coming happens in Revelation 19?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Brother, you make good arguments. I'm just persuaded by the points I've made. I didn't insert myself here to get into another one of our hostile discussions--just pointed out one item, that Premils do *not* project the notion of a "goat-filled Millennium." That gives a false impression to those who don't understand the intricacies of the argument.
If you want to believe I've shared "nothing," I don't care.
I am (of course) referring to the claims made by yourself that I presented in quotes.
So, are the billions of wicked (Gog and Magog) who rise to an incredible number as the sand of the sea in your future millennium saved or lost (sheep or goats)?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
They are lost. As in the present age there are both sheep and goats co-existing. But pagan kingdoms like China do as they will. And former Christian Kingdoms are virtual apostates.
But in the Premil vision of things, as I see it, there will still be sheep and goats, saved and lost. The difference will be that Satan is bound and restrained from provoking international war and active rebellion against God.
When the thousand years are over, things will return to how they are today, with open rebellion and paganism rearing its ugly head. I'm not trying to convince you of this--just explaining my own personal position. Other Premils view this differently.
It does seem that Christ focused on a coming Kingdom that is perfect, with the wicked completely removed. It's a good argument--just not enough to dissuade me from believing in a literal version of Rev 20, as seen by Premillennialists. I can see a perfect Kingdom coming, with no sin and no evil, even in an era and on an earth that is still imperfect and laden with sin.
That may seem contradictory, which is why your argument is pretty good. However, I've given my rationale, whether it is "nothing" in your view or not. It's just what I choose to believe.
The perfect Kingdom that is coming will be on an imperfect earth in terms of a "reign." The Kingdom will reign from heaven, but will impose its will on the earth with the specific purpose of fulfilling all of God's promises--not just for Israel but also for many nations. In this coming age I believe there will be many Christian nations that do not fall into rebellion until after the thousand years is over and Satan is released once again.
So, your millennium is indeed infested with billions of goats, as I alleged? It is sin-cursed and death blighted? You agree with what I have alleged, even though it is the opposite picture that you wish to present. This age of Aquarius is obviously a mega-delusion. What i presented was in fact an accurate depiction of the Premil millennium.
The Light
Well-Known Member
Why would I be reluctant as I already know what your response will be, and it will be incorrect? It's not my first rodeo.
Revelation 3
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Revelation 4
4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Ok. I'm short of time, but I digress. Put some time into this long post that no one reads..... for the time is drawing very near.
The Church is raptured to heaven before the seals are opened. The 1st six seals are the tribulation period. You can go to Matthew 24 and go right down the seals. The 1st four seals, the four horsemen of the Apocalypse are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.( Matthew 24:5-8). The fifth seal is the great tribulation. The sixth seal is the coming of Jesus for the gathering from heaven and earth prior to the day of the Lord. This is the second harvest. This is the coming of Jesus at the end of Matthew 24 which is also shown in Mark 13
Mark 13
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
This gathering from heaven and earth results in the great multitude in Rev 7. So the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal and Matthwe 24 is not the coming of Jesus at the end of Revelation 19.
So Jesus comes in at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation. Then the wrath of God begins with the opening of the 7th seal. Trumpet 1-7 are the wrath of God. Jesus has returned and armageddon is over as the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord.
Revelation 11
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
So wrath is over, there is judgement and it is over and that's the end of the story.
You want to see another view of the same story with different details? Revelation 13 and 14 puts you back in the seals. In Revelation 14 we see 144,000 first fruits which are the first fruits of the second harvest. We see Jesus return for these first fruits and redeem them from the earth. There's a coming you are missing.
Rev 14
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
We see the fifth seal, the great tribulation here.
Revelation 14
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
That is followed by the coming of Jesus which is the 6th seal. Which is also the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24
Rev 14
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
At the end of the harvest, we see the wrath of God is getting ready to begin.
Revelation 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
This is the same timeframe of as you see at the 6th seal when wrath is getting ready to begin.
Revelation 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Then you have the vials of wrath which happen in the same time frame as the trumpets. Then you have Jesus retuning with the armies of heaven which include all that have been raptured there.
So to conclude we have the coming of Jesus for His Church before the seals are opened. After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in God turns His attention to His Chosen. Jesus then returns for the 144,000 first fruits of the second harvest. The Jesus returns for that harvest at the 6th seal (Matthew 24, Revelation 14). Then Jesus returns at the end of wrath with the armies of heaven. That's four comings and if he comes for the dead in Christ separately from the alive believers as suspect, that will be 5 comings..............and you can only find one?
You need to study up fast. You are currently in the camp of those that say "where is the promise of His coming"? You need to be in the camp of those that are watching and ready, for the son of man comes in an hour that you think not.
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