More biblical proof that supports Amillennialism

[WPM]

Corruption will not last forever. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future (Romans 8:19-23 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-55). What is more, this earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. We see that in Psalm 102:25-27, Matthew 19:28, Acts 3:19-21, 2 Peter 3:7–13, and Hebrews 1:10-12.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted, as Premils argue.

Acts 3:19-21

19 the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the the times of restitution [Gr. apokatastasis or reconstitution] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

“The times of refreshing” and “the restitution of all things” expressly coincides with the Lord’s appearing, thus proving the all-consummating nature of that glorious event.

The sense and meaning of the word apocatastasis here is ‘a restoration of things to its first state’ (or ‘to return to its former state’).

Webster's 1828 Dictionary says, “‘Restitution’ means ‘The act of recovering a former state or posture, the putting the world in a holy and happy state’.”

In everyday language it refers to a return to the original place. For example, the return of a ship to its home port; in astronomy it meant the cyclical return of a planet to the point where it was found earlier; in medicine it meant the return of a patient to health.

Whilst the Greek word apokatastasis is only found in Acts 3:21, the root word apokathistemi is found 8 times in Scripture. We see the restorative sense of the word in the story of the man with the withered hand in Matthew 12:13, where it says, “it was restored (apokathistemi) whole, like as the other.”

Likewise, in Mark 8:25 the blind man received his sight it says, “he was restored (apokathistemi), and saw every man clearly.”

This passage is clear in its instruction: “the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain)” Jesus Christ “until the times of restitution of all things.”

Jesus isn’t going anywhere until the restoration of fallen creation!

2 Peter 3:7 also confirms, “the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

The destruction of our current earth coincides with the fiery judgment of the wicked at the Lord’s return. The purpose of this current earth being destroyed by fire at the same time as the wicked is to purge this earth of every vestige of the bondage of corruption and purify it of all sin and unrighteousness. It will indeed be a perfect glorified state. The new earth is a place that is completely liberated from all unrighteousness.

After outlining the awful judgment that will fall upon fallen creation, Peter reassures the believer, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13).

He's not coming back to a corrupt earth plagued by sin and sinners, deception and being deceived, crying and dying, disease and decay, war and terror, Satan and his devils as Premils promote.

Peter shows that whilst the day of the revelation of Christ is an awful day of woe for the wicked; it is a day of joy and blessing for the righteous.

God’s purpose is that the entire creation will be regenerated. That is, the whole universe will be freed from the curse of corruption and degeneration. His intent is to bring a whole new order when He returns that will be marked by righteousness and eternality. A new regenerated creation will welcome a freshly perfected redeemed people. We are therefore looking at universal regeneration.

1 Peter 4:4-7 says, “they (the wicked) think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.”

After telling us that “the end of all things is at hand” the Scriptures admonish us to be “sober” and “watch.” Why does it tell us to do that? Because we will be here right up until “the end of all things is at hand.”

Like Paul the Apostle, Peter piggybacks on Jesus constant admonition to watch and be ready. He instructs us to be sober and not drunk and when that day arrives.

Peter continues in verse 13 of the same passage, whilst speaking of that great final event, by encouraging the believers, saying, “rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”

This passage therefore instructs God’s people to be “sober, and watch unto prayer” in regard to its approach, but also to anticipate it as a time when they will “be glad also with exceeding joy.”

Peter reinforces the impending nature of the general judgment and the judgment of the wicked by telling us that they “shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.” Christ is indeed “ready” to judge the wicked at His return.

 

[Keraz]

Christ is indeed “ready” to judge the wicked at His return.

Jesus does this at Armageddon. As described as well in Matthew 25:31-33
Only righteous, faithful people will go with Him into the Millennium.

 

[WPM]

Jesus does this at Armageddon. As described as well in Matthew 25:31-33
Only righteous, faithful people will go with Him into the Millennium.

You totally ignored the biblical evidence above. The Op forbids your beliefs.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Corruption will not continue forever. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future. When is that?

This earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. Multiple Scripture supports this. We see that in Romans 8:19-23, Luke 20:27-36, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and 2 Peter 3:7–13.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted as Premils argue.

As you've been told many times, Premils do not argue for an earth after Christ's Coming that is "sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted." This is clearly an exaggerated misrepresentation designed to enhance your own argument for Amil.

On the contrary, Premils like myself argue for an earth after Christ's Coming in which the "glory of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea." In other words, it is a time, during a continuing mortal human era, in which Abraham's promises can be fulfilled, despite the fact people are still prone to sin.

It's just that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age. Satan is bound for a thousand years, in the very words of the Apostle John in Rev 20. Amils must "reinterpret" that using symbolic interpretation in order to avoid a literal rendering of Premil Theology.

Sorry, but that's the case. Otherwise, I have no problem with Amil adherents. They and you are entitled to your own opinion, though not to false representations of what I believe as a Premil.

I would anticipate some arguments over the question of whether the glorified saints rule *from heaven* during the Millennium. This is indeed a questionable matter, since we are told that Christ is Coming Back *with his saints* to establish his Kingdom on the earth.

However, I believe that the glorified Christ and his saints return only to establish the Kingdom on earth in the context of a continuing mortal human era. Once established they may remain in a heavenly environment until the end of the Millennium when the New Jerusalem descends *from heaven.*

So it appears that if the New Jerusalem returns *from heaven* that the glorified saints must remain *in heaven* during the Millennium, after establishing Christ's Kingdom on earth through their "coming to earth." It is like a king arriving at a capital city with his army to establish his rule there, and then returning to his home country, leaving his representatives in charge.

In this case, Christ and the glorified saints come back to earth to establish Christ's Millennial rule here, and then return to heaven, leaving newly-converted Christians in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago.

 

[WPM]

As you've been told many times, Premils do not argue for an earth after Christ's Coming that is "sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted." This is clearly an exaggerated misrepresentation designed to enhance your own argument for Amil.

On the contrary, Premils like myself argue for an earth after Christ's Coming in which the "glory of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea." In other words, it is a time, during a continuing mortal human era, in which Abraham's promises can be fulfilled, despite the fact people are still prone to sin.

It's just that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age. Satan is bound for a thousand years, in the very words of the Apostle John in Rev 20. Amils must "reinterpret" that using symbolic interpretation in order to avoid a literal rendering of Premil Theology.

Sorry, but that's the case. Otherwise, I have no problem with Premil adherents. They and you are entitled to your own opinion, though not to false representations of what I believe as a Premil.

I would anticipate some arguments over the question of whether the glorified saints rule *from heaven* during the Millennium. This is indeed a questionable matter, since we are told that Christ is Coming Back *with his saints* to establish his Kingdom on the earth.

However, I believe that the glorified Christ and his saints return only to establish the Kingdom on earth in the context of a continuing mortal human era. Once established they may remain in a heavenly environment until the end of the Millennium when the New Jerusalem descends *from heaven.*

So it appears that if the New Jerusalem returns *from heaven* that the glorified saints must remain *in heaven* during the Millennium, after establishing Christ's Kingdom on earth through their "coming to earth." It is like a king arriving at a capital city with his army to establish his rule there, and then returning to his home country, leaving his representatives in charge.

In this case, Christ and the glorified saints come back to earth to establish Christ's Millennial rule here, and then return to heaven, leaving newly-converted Christians in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago.

Oh, so, contrary to what you say: your millennium is "sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted." It does possess sinful mortals that overrun your millennium as the sand of the sea.

Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the NT does it say "that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the NT does it say "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus does this at Armageddon. As described as well in Matthew 25:31-33
Only righteous, faithful people will go with Him into the Millennium

Matthew 25:34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

In your view, this is talking about people with mortal flesh and blood inheriting the kingdom of God. But, Paul taught this:

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

Mortal flesh and blood will NOT inherit the kingdom of God, as Paul clearly taught. So, your interpretation of Matthew 25:31-33 can't possibly be correct.

In Matthew 25:31-46 Jesus indicated that ALL people will be gathered before His throne when He comes with His angels. The righteous will be changed to have immortal bodies (1 Cor 15:50-54) and will inherit the kingdom of God at that time. The wicked will all be cast into the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels at that time (Matthew 25:41). The concept of mortal people inheriting the kingdom of God is simply not taught anywhere in scripture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Oh, so, contrary to what you say: your millennium is "sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted." It does possess sinful mortals that overrun your millennium as the sand of the sea.

No, I agree that you're right that Premils, like myself, believe sin and rebellion, in a lesser degree, continue in a future Millennial Age, that we believe in. I'm just saying your version appears to *exaggerate* the matter--almost as if the rebellion occurring in the present age continues in the next, as if Satan running roughshod over the saints in the present age continues in the next, as if the rise of Antichrist in this age continues into the next age. Premils like myself do not believe that, since we believe that Satan will be bound, different from current limitations placed upon him by Christ.

This is not an argument--just an explanation. You're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the NT does it say "that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
Where in Revelation 20 or anywhere else in the NT does it say "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?

The definition of the Messianic Kingdom, as defined in the OT Prophets, indicates that saintly rulers will govern the Age to Come and that evil will suppressed. I've given these passages, but we will obviously have different interpretations of them. I was just pointing out that your characterization of the "Premil viewpoint" is, in my opinion, exaggerated.

 

[WPM]

The definition of the Messianic Kingdom, as defined in the OT Prophets, indicates that saintly rulers will govern the Age to Come and that evil will suppressed. I've given these passages, but we will obviously have different interpretations of them. I was just pointing out that your characterization of the "Premil viewpoint" is, in my opinion, exaggerated.

Ok. So, you have nothing in the NT, including Revelation 20, to support your claims.

• Where in the OT does it say "that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
• Where in the OT does it say newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ok. So, you have nothing in the NT, including Revelation 20, to support your claims.

• Where in the OT does it say "that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
• Where in the OT does it say newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?

Yes, I have information in the NT to support my claims. I likely have shared it a number of times with you or with other Amils. I'm not here to argue with you, but to correct the "exaggeration" that Premils believe in a Millennium dominated by evil.

There is nothing in the OT Prophets that indicate Christians exist in the future--we assume that based on our ability to look back, now that Christ has come. What we have in the OT Prophets is the projection that saints continue until the end of the age and the coming of the Son of Man, who establishes his Kingdom after the defeat of Antichrist, the "Little Horn."

Again, the many references in the OT Prophets to the Messianic Kingdom imply the rule of the saints--something that Jesus suggests, as well.

Matt 19.28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Ok. So, you have nothing in the NT, including Revelation 20, to support your claims.

• Where in the OT does it say "that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
• Where in the OT does it say newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?

The answer to both questions, of course, is nowhere. Premillennialism is based mostly on speculation. There is no explicit scripture that can be used to support it, including Revelation 20 where there is no mention of Jesus being on earth.

Meanwhile, Amils have an abundance of scriptures that explicitly support our view such as 2 Peter 3:10-12, 2 Thess 1:7-10, Matthew 13:36-43, Matthew 13:47-50, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 20:34-36 and John 5:28-29.

 

[WPM]

Yes, I have information in the NT to support my claims. I likely have shared it a number of times with you or with other Amils. I'm not here to argue with you, but to correct the "exaggeration" that Premils believe in a Millennium dominated by evil.

There is nothing in the OT Prophets that indicate Christians exist in the future--we assume that based on our ability to look back, now that Christ has come. What we have in the OT Prophets is the projection that saints continue until the end of the age and the coming of the Son of Man, who establishes his Kingdom after the defeat of Antichrist, the "Little Horn."

Again, the many references in the OT Prophets to the Messianic Kingdom imply the rule of the saints--something that Jesus suggests, as well.

Matt 19.28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Ok. As I suspected, you have nothing of biblical worth. You make these sweeping claims but fail to provide the reader with hard evidence. That is the frustrating thing with debating with Premils - they don't have the biblical support to corroborate their far-fetched ideas. That is why Premil should be rejected.

Matthew 19.28 does not provide support for your claims. In fact, it reinforces Amil. When Jesus comes in His glory, Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This fits in with countless passages in Holy Writ that demonstrate that judgment day is an event that occurs on the last day, where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are banished to the lake of fire. We do not need to import anything else into these. For you to do otherwise is to depict your millennium as one ongoing judgment of natural Israel. This is the opposite to classic Premil that elevates Israel to a favor place in their millennium and shows them restoring their whole old covenant apparatus in the presence of Jesus.

This passage locates “the regeneration” at the second coming “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” Here, they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I don’t believe this is talking about twelve literal stone judgment seats; it is simply referring to the authority that will be exercised by the redeemed when He appears. Unbelieving Israel will be judged by the redeemed saints of all nations – they are “the regeneration” that join Him “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory” to judge the nations. Israel is shown to be judged at the second coming. Like every other Christ-rejecting nation, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Only those that love Christ will be saved. This is therefore an allusion to the general judgment which occurs at Christ's coming.

The elect will judge the Christ-rejecting nations and the twelve tribes of Israel that have rejected Christ since His earthly ministry. This passage is simply identifying the group of people that will “sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” – namely “ye which have followed me, in the regeneration.” This regeneration refers to those who have been changed into Christ's image. This is evidently talking about the elect of all time. It is the elect (both Jew and Gentile) that will judge Christ-rejecting Israel. A future earthly millennial kingdom is not remotely mentioned in this reading.

Barnes in his commentary says re the "regeneration," “the word also means any great change, or a restoration of things to a former state or to a better state. In this sense it is probably used here. It refers to that great revolution-that restoration of order in the universe-that universal new birth which will occur when the dead shall rise, and all human things shall be changed, and a new order of things shall start up out of the ruins of the old, when the Son of man shall come to judgment. The passage, then, should be read, "Ye which have followed me shall, as a reward in the great day of the resurrection of the dead, and of forming the new and eternal order of things-the day of judgment, the regeneration-be signally honored and blessed.”

Jesus said, in Luke 22:29-30: “I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

These just confirm that the elect are going to one day judge Israel. You cannot import anything further into these - it simply isn't there.

It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day.

There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.”

 

[Truth7t7]

Jesus does this at Armageddon. As described as well in Matthew 25:31-33
Only righteous, faithful people will go with Him into the Millennium.

There won't be a Millennium on this earth after the Lords return

Jesus returns in fire and final judgement (The End)

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

 

[Truth7t7]

On the contrary, Premils like myself argue for an earth after Christ's Coming in which the "glory of the Lord covers the earth as the waters cover the sea." In other words, it is a time, during a continuing mortal human era, in which Abraham's promises can be fulfilled, despite the fact people are still prone to sin.

As WPM states, goat infested and death-blighted

Mortals are present in your sci-fi Millennium dying physical death, as Jesus sits on a throne as chief funeral director

A make believe fairy tale

 

[Truth7t7]

The definition of the Messianic Kingdom, as defined in the OT Prophets, indicates that saintly rulers will govern the Age to Come and that evil will suppressed. I've given these passages, but we will obviously have different interpretations of them. I was just pointing out that your characterization of the "Premil viewpoint" is, in my opinion, exaggerated.

A Sci-Fi Fairy Tale Found No Place In Scripture

 

[Randy Kluth]

Ok. As I suspected, you have nothing of. biblical worth. You make these sweeping claims but fail to provide the reader with hard evidence. That is the frustrating thing with debating with Premils - they don't have the biblical support to corroborate their far-fetched ideas. That is why Premil should be rejected.

I don't care if you or others reject Premil for whatever reason. That's a matter for your own personal conscience. I was just pointing out a possible misrepresentation in your comment about Premils believing in a "sick" Millennial Era. It is mortal, it is sinful, but it is controlled by the reign of Christ for a thousand years until Satan is released.

Matthew 19.28 actually provides to support for your claims. In fact, it reinforces Amil. When Jesus comes in His glory, Jesus said, in Matthew 19:28, “Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This fits in with countless passages in Holy Writ that demonstrate that judgment day is an event that occurs on the last day, where the righteous are rewarded and the wicked are banished to the lake of fire. We do not need to import anything else into these. For you to do otherwise is to depict your millennium as one ongoing judgment of natural Israel. This is the opposite to classic Premil that elevates Israel to a favor place in their millennium and shows them restoring their whole old covenant apparatus in the presence of Jesus.

It depends on what you mean by "classic Premil?" Dispensationalism elevates Israel, but ancient Premil does not, nor do Premil adherents outside of Dispensationalist adherents like myself. You regularly combat Premil with Dispensationalism in sight without a full recognition of non-Dispensationalist Premil beliefs. That's why I regularly comment on it, because the "shoe doesn't always fit."

On the matter of "judgment" coming at the return of Christ, you are focusing on the sentencing stage, rather than on the "ruling" stage. Judging can be both a matter of rendering verdicts in court and governing nations. You've discarded the governing part it seems? My argument would be that the Millennial Reign involves "governing," and not just rendering verdicts in a heavenly court.

This passage locates “the regeneration” at the second coming “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory.” Here, they will be judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

I don’t believe this is talking about twelve literal stone judgment seats; it is simply referring to the authority that will be exercised by the redeemed when He appears. Unbelieving Israel will be judged by the redeemed saints of all nations – they are “the regeneration” that join Him “when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory” to judge the nations. Israel is shown to be judged at the second coming. Like every other Christ-rejecting nation, they will be cast into the lake of fire. Only those that love Christ will be saved. This is therefore an allusion to the general judgment which occurs at Christ's coming.

I don't believe the "12 tribes of Israel" represents a literal re-constitution of the 12 tribes either. In my view, the current nation of Israel does constitute the end product of the original 12 tribes. And so, the 12 apostles rendering decisions and governing the "12 tribes" is really a matter of managing the nation as a whole, now that the 12 tribes have evolved into their destined national structure.

Why mention the "12 tribes" at all then? I think Jesus does so simply to point out that the original promise of 12 tribes becoming a nation of God requires that it be consisting of believers from these tribes, and not simply DNA descendants of the tribes. And so, they are judged on the basis of their faith, and in terms of the promise, and not strictly in terms of their DNA constitution.

It is at this great concluding event that both the righteous and the wicked will be raised to face the great final judgment. Notwithstanding, there are two aspects to the one all-consummating resurrection day.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41-42, “The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.”

The righteous Old Testament Gentile saint – the queen of the south – is raised at the same time as the wicked Pharisees of Christ’s day to stand before the same judgment seat of Christ. Remember the queen of the south and Nineveh are presented as Old Testament Gentile saints that will “rise up in the judgment with” the wicked unbelieving Jews of Christ’s day.

There is no prolonged parenthesis period separating the resurrection of the wicked dead and the resurrection of the righteous dead. They both “rise up” at the same time. The Old Testament Gentile city of Nineveh is shown to “rise up in the judgment with” (or meta) the religious Jewish world of Christ’s day and “condemn it.”

Yes, saying these things does not present a strict order or itinerary. However, the language does not require it, in my opinion. At some point, the resurrection of all will take place. And whenever it does happen, people will be testifying regarding their own experience in the light of the experiences of others. In short, not enough here to determine, strictly, that resurrection of both righteous and wicked are simultaneous, particularly in view of the explicit description in Rev 20.

 

[WPM]

I don't care if you or others reject Premil for whatever reason. That's a matter for your own personal conscience. I was just pointing out a possible misrepresentation in your comment about Premils believing in a "sick" Millennial Era. It is mortal, it is sinful, but it is controlled by the reign of Christ for a thousand years until Satan is released.

If you make unsubstantiated or extra-biblical claims you can expect Amils to challenge that. That is what forums like this are for. It is only what the Book says that matters.

• The fact is, there is nowhere that teaches "that the rule of the glorified Christ and his saints from heaven prevent the overt rebellion against God that we see in the present age"?
• The fact is, there is nowhere that teaches "newly-converted Christians" are left "in charge of many Christian nations promised to Abraham thousands of years ago" in some future millennium?

This is all your own speculative opinions. It cannot be found anywhere in your lone support passage. You force it into Scripture.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus isn’t going anywhere until the restoration of fallen creation!

So it is OK for Jesus to be on earth in your scenario, but not ok to allow Jesus on earth for Premil? How one sided can you get?

Either Jesus is on earth or not? It does not matter if one is premil or amil to prove that point.

The whole issue is amil claim premil don't understand amil. Now amil are just being ridiculous to claim Jesus is now on earth at the Second Coming, and won't be going any where until the restoration is complete, but change their tune when premil claim the same thing.

Isaiah 65 declares that point for the millennium. You claim Isaiah 65 is not for earth, then turn around and say it is.

Amil totally miss the point about Jesus handing back the kingdom. When some one hands their authority back to another person, they no longer are ruling and reigning. At least that is the sensible thought process. Jesus hands all of creation back to God in a perfect condition, 1,000 years after the Second Coming. You claim Jesus hands it back in 30 minutes, no? 1 Second? Do you even have a time frame? Of course not.

If you had a time frame from Scripture you could prove your assertion. But all you did was prove some premil are wrong in their assertion. You both are wrong. Amil have the timing wrong, but the facts straight. Premil have the timing right, but the facts wrong.

You don't even understand the tribulation, so how could you know pre trib from post trib?

The tribulation period is Jesus on earth with the angels in the final harvest. The final harvest is the period of this time of Jacob's trouble. Kind of hard to say Jesus and the angels are not on the earth, but yet Jesus and the angels on the earth are not going anywhere after their arrival until all things are restored. Matthew 13 declares Jesus and the angels are on the earth.

"41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

Also in Matthew 25

"31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

Matthew 24:30-31

"They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

In that (according to you, highly symbolic book) even John symbolizes the angels coming to earth at the Second Coming. Revelation 6:13-14

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

What other way to symbolize all the angels coming to earth? Obviously if everything in heaven and earth changed, and all earth's works are burned up, restoration is deemed the highest priority, no?

Here I thought you all claimed Jesus is handing back a burnt offering. Now you agree with Premil that Jesus must reign, for a thousand years, as John pointed out, until all things are subjected, no? Of course the restoration will not take a thousand years one soul at a time.


People are not what is being restored over time nor the earth and heaven for that matter. Look at Genesis 1 again, for a refresher course on subdue:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Why would humans need to subdue a perfect world without sin, death, decay, or blemishes of any kind? How about this? Be fruitful and multiply. Being fruitful and multiplying is the act of subduing. So what is Jesus and the sheep and wheat, the firstfruits of the GT, yes Jesus is gathering those firstfruits, after the Second Coming pre-trib to get those firstfruits during the trib, doing for 1,000 years? Genesis 1:28

As Paul pointed out Jesus must reign after the Second Coming until the end, until all things are subdued, brought under subjection. The last enemy is death. So those last minute protestors deceived by Satan, have to die by fire from heaven, and then death will be defeated and no more a reality. But the new heavens and earth are immediate before the Millennium even starts. The whole point of the 1,000 years as God's requirement of subduing is to multiply and fill the earth. The Gog and Magog are those last few generations at the "ends" of the earth, there is no more room left on earth, because it is filled. They are the ones deceived by Satan. So if the earth is saturated with humans to all four quarters, how many people do you think it takes to fill (subdue) the earth? Also if every one has their own Vinyard? Isaiah 65:21-22

"And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."

Once a house is built, and a Vinyard planted that is it. No one else will live there, and people will not move around, like they do today. The whole point is to fill the earth, subdue it for 1,000 years, until it is full. That means a whole lot of people, and building. The earth cannot be subdued and brought under subjection in 24 hours. Unless you think hundreds of billions of people spring up in 24 hours?

Jesus is not subduing the next creation. The NHNE in Revelation 21. Jesus is restoring and subduing this creation, that was allowed under the punishment of Adam's disobedience. And, no, Jesus is not having all those babies, nor are a few remnant firstfruits. That is why it takes 1,000 years. The old fashioned way of one family and generation at a time.

The earth is currently not subdued because of sin and death. So how do you propose Jesus subdues the earth in 24 hours, since you deny the Day of Lord is 1,000 years, even when Peter told you all not to be ignorant and ignore that fact. Peter points out Jesus has to cleanse the earth by the baptism of fire, before it can be restored and subdued. I guess you have your own private magical chronological order, since you reject the chronological order of Revelation, at least you keep telling us Revelation is not chronological. BTW, "magical" is far play, since some amil here keep declaring fantasy, and fairy tale accusations against premil.

Obviously God could instantly have an earth full of people without magic. What is the point, if God pointed out there is a thousand years between the Second Coming and the end? Satan has already deceived most humans, that it took God 14 billion years to get this far, and over population happened in the last 200 years. They stress over population because those 14 billion years did not yield enough resources for today's demanding "over population".

God did it all in 6 times 24 hours, and then told them to over populate the world, and called that subduing all those resources. No one even cares to imagine how populated the earth was when God placed Adam in the Garden, nor how much happened 1,500 years after Adam disobeyed God. It has been 4,500 years and humans can't do anything right when God leaves them alone with Satan. Nor can Satan either, Obviously. All Satan can do is offer fun to a few, at the expense of all the rest.

 

[WPM]

So it is OK for Jesus to be on earth in your scenario, but not ok to allow Jesus on earth for Premil? How one sided can you get?

Either Jesus is on earth or not? It does not matter if one is premil or amil to prove that point.

The whole issue is amil claim premil don't understand amil. Now amil are just being ridiculous to claim Jesus is now on earth at the Second Coming, and won't be going any where until the restoration is complete, but change their tune when premil claim the same thing.

Isaiah 65 declares that point for the millennium. You claim Isaiah 65 is not for earth, then turn around and say it is.

Amil totally miss the point about Jesus handing back the kingdom. When some one hands their authority back to another person, they no longer are ruling and reigning. At least that is the sensible thought process. Jesus hands all of creation back to God in a perfect condition, 1,000 years after the Second Coming. You claim Jesus hands it back in 30 minutes, no? 1 Second? Do you even have a time frame? Of course not.

If you had a time frame from Scripture you could prove your assertion. But all you did was prove some premil are wrong in their assertion. You both are wrong. Amil have the timing wrong, but the facts straight. Premil have the timing right, but the facts wrong.

You don't even understand the tribulation, so how could you know pre trib from post trib?

The tribulation period is Jesus on earth with the angels in the final harvest. The final harvest is the period of this time of Jacob's trouble. Kind of hard to say Jesus and the angels are not on the earth, but yet Jesus and the angels on the earth are not going anywhere after their arrival until all things are restored. Matthew 13 declares Jesus and the angels are on the earth.

"41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;"

Also in Matthew 25

"31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

Matthew 24:30-31

"They shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

In that (according to you, highly symbolic book) even John symbolizes the angels coming to earth at the Second Coming. Revelation 6:13-14

"And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

What other way to symbolize all the angels coming to earth? Obviously if everything in heaven and earth changed, and all earth's works are burned up, restoration is deemed the highest priority, no?

Here I thought you all claimed Jesus is handing back a burnt offering. Now you agree with Premil that Jesus must reign, for a thousand years, as John pointed out, until all things are subjected, no? Of course the restoration will not take a thousand years one soul at a time.


People are not what is being restored over time nor the earth and heaven for that matter. Look at Genesis 1 again, for a refresher course on subdue:

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

Why would humans need to subdue a perfect world without sin, death, decay, or blemishes of any kind? How about this? Be fruitful and multiply. Being fruitful and multiplying is the act of subduing. So what is Jesus and the sheep and wheat, the firstfruits of the GT, yes Jesus is gathering those firstfruits, after the Second Coming pre-trib to get those firstfruits during the trib, doing for 1,000 years? Genesis 1:28

As Paul pointed out Jesus must reign after the Second Coming until the end, until all things are subdued, brought under subjection. The last enemy is death. So those last minute protestors deceived by Satan, have to die by fire from heaven, and then death will be defeated and no more a reality. But the new heavens and earth are immediate before the Millennium even starts. The whole point of the 1,000 years as God's requirement of subduing is to multiply and fill the earth. The Gog and Magog are those last few generations at the "ends" of the earth, there is no more room left on earth, because it is filled. They are the ones deceived by Satan. So if the earth is saturated with humans to all four quarters, how many people do you think it takes to fill (subdue) the earth? Also if every one has their own Vinyard? Isaiah 65:21-22

"And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands."

Once a house is built, and a Vinyard planted that is it. No one else will live there, and people will not move around, like they do today. The whole point is to fill the earth, subdue it for 1,000 years, until it is full. That means a whole lot of people, and building. The earth cannot be subdued and brought under subjection in 24 hours. Unless you think hundreds of billions of people spring up in 24 hours?

Jesus is not subduing the next creation. The NHNE in Revelation 21. Jesus is restoring and subduing this creation, that was allowed under the punishment of Adam's disobedience. And, no, Jesus is not having all those babies, nor are a few remnant firstfruits. That is why it takes 1,000 years. The old fashioned way of one family and generation at a time.

The earth is currently not subdued because of sin and death. So how do you propose Jesus subdues the earth in 24 hours, since you deny the Day of Lord is 1,000 years, even when Peter told you all not to be ignorant and ignore that fact. Peter points out Jesus has to cleanse the earth by the baptism of fire, before it can be restored and subdued. I guess you have your own private magical chronological order, since you reject the chronological order of Revelation, at least you keep telling us Revelation is not chronological. BTW, "magical" is far play, since some amil here keep declaring fantasy, and fairy tale accusations against premil.

Obviously God could instantly have an earth full of people without magic. What is the point, if God pointed out there is a thousand years between the Second Coming and the end? Satan has already deceived most humans, that it took God 14 billion years to get this far, and over population happened in the last 200 years. They stress over population because those 14 billion years did not yield enough resources for today's demanding "over population".

God did it all in 6 times 24 hours, and then told them to over populate the world, and called that subduing all those resources. No one even cares to imagine how populated the earth was when God placed Adam in the Garden, nor how much happened 1,500 years after Adam disobeyed God. It has been 4,500 years and humans can't do anything right when God leaves them alone with Satan. Nor can Satan either, Obviously. All Satan can do is offer fun to a few, at the expense of all the rest.

You did not even read what I wrote, unless you are deliberately trying to twist what I am saying.

I only read the 1st few lines and stopped. I rarely read your post. They are so contradictory. You do not even know that Amils hold that Jesus is in heaven during the ongoing fulfilment of Revelation 20. He does not come back to till second coming (after Satan's little season) to glorified the earth and the redeemed.

 

[ScottA]

Corruption will not continue forever. Thankfully, creation will be finally regenerated and freed from the curse in the future. When is that?

This earth will not be eliminated. It will be regenerated at the coming of Jesus. Multiple Scripture supports this. We see that in Romans 8:19-23, Luke 20:27-36, 1 Corinthians 15:50-55 and 2 Peter 3:7–13.

Christ is coming back to a perfect glorified regenerated earth to reign forever with the suitably attired glorified saints. But, it will not be sin-cursed, goat-infested, or death-blighted as Premils argue.

Acts 3:19-21

19 the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the the times of restitution [Gr. apokatastasis or reconstitution] of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

“The times of refreshing” and “the restitution of all things” expressly coincides with the Lord’s appearing, thus proving the all-consummating nature of that glorious event.

The sense and meaning of the word apocatastasis here is ‘a restoration of things to its first state’ (or ‘to return to its former state’).

Webster's 1828 Dictionary says, “‘Restitution’ means ‘The act of recovering a former state or posture, the putting the world in a holy and happy state’.”

In everyday language it refers to a return to the original place. For example, the return of a ship to its home port; in astronomy it meant the cyclical return of a planet to the point where it was found earlier; in medicine it meant the return of a patient to health.

Whilst the Greek word apokatastasis is only found in Acts 3:21, the root word apokathistemi is found 8 times in Scripture. We see the restorative sense of the word in the story of the man with the withered hand in Matthew 12:13, where it says, “it was restored (apokathistemi) whole, like as the other.”

Likewise, in Mark 8:25 the blind man received his sight it says, “he was restored (apokathistemi), and saw every man clearly.”

This passage is clear in its instruction: “the heaven must receive (or dechomai, or detain)” Jesus Christ “until the times of restitution of all things.”

Jesus isn’t going anywhere until the restoration of fallen creation!

2 Peter 3:7 also confirms, “the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”

The destruction of our current earth coincides with the fiery judgment of the wicked at the Lord’s return. The purpose of this current earth being destroyed by fire at the same time as the wicked is to purge this earth of every vestige of the bondage of corruption and purify it of all sin and unrighteousness. It will indeed be a perfect glorified state. The new earth is a place that is completely liberated from all unrighteousness.

After outlining the awful judgment that will fall upon fallen creation, Peter reassures the believer, “Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13).

He's not coming back to a corrupt earth plagued by sin and sinners, deception and being deceived, crying and dying, disease and decay, war and terror, Satan and his devils as Pretribulationalists promote.

Peter shows that whilst the day of the revelation of Christ is an awful day of woe for the wicked; it is a day of joy and blessing for the righteous.

God’s purpose is that the entire creation will be regenerated. That is, the whole universe will be freed from the curse of corruption and degeneration. His intent is to bring a whole new order when He returns that will be marked by righteousness and eternality. A new regenerated creation will welcome a freshly perfected redeemed people. We are therefore looking at universal regeneration.

1 Peter 4:4-7 says, “they (the wicked) think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you: Who shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.”

After telling us that “the end of all things is at hand” the Scriptures admonish us to be “sober” and “watch.” Why does it tell us to do that? Because we will be here right up until “the end of all things is at hand.”

Peter is piggybacking on Jesus constant admiration to watch and be ready. Paul does the same. He instructs us to be sober and not drunk and when that day arrives.

Peter continues in verse 13 of the same passage, whilst speaking of that great final event, by encouraging the believers, saying, “rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.”

This passage therefore instructs God’s people to be “sober, and watch unto prayer” in regard to its approach, but also to anticipate it as a time when they will “be glad also with exceeding joy.”

Peter reinforces the impending nature of the general judgment and the judgment of the wicked by telling us that they “shall give account to Him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.” Christ is indeed “ready” to judge the wicked at His return.

Sounds like axe grinding.

Jesus went to prepare a place, and said if He returned it would not be to stay but rather that where He is, we might be also.

But the topic is rather before or after the times foretold. But He began returning "but each one in his own order" 2,000 years ago, and that is when His reign began...making both theories wrong.

 

[WPM]

Sounds like axe grinding.

Jesus went to prepare a place, and said if He returned it would not be to stay but rather that where He is, we might be also.

But the topic is rather before or after the times foretold. But He began returning "but each one in his own order" 2,000 years old ago, and that is when His reign began...making both theories wrong.

Not so. He is coming in the future to glorify the earth and the redeemed and introduce the NHNE.