Another Premillennial absurdity

[WPM]

See what I mean?

Not completely, since there will be need for healing leaves for the nations. You just don't take God at His word, that's all.

I have already refuted this above.

The saved nations shall enter through the gates of New Jerusalem, not by the skirts of Jews.

LOL. So, you have nothing. You seem to make it up as you go. Zechariah 8:23 makes no mention of your imaginary future millennium.

They are mentioned in Rev 3 and 20. Do I really need to keep instructing you that the full vision of prophecy of Scripture is not in one place of the Bible alone? The prophecy of the Messiah coming as a man was not just in Isaiah 9. I'm not going to bother doing it with you anymore.

LOL. This is descending into a farce real quick. More avoidance. More ducking and diving. Zechariah 14 makes no mention of your imaginary future millennium.

Supplement, not comparison. Zech shows nations being ruled by the Lord over all the earth, and Rev 20 shows His resurrected saints reigning with Him.

You notably failed to do a comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 as requested. That is because they do not correlate. It is all in your head. It is what you have been taught.

Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned? Please give us Scripture instead of making false claims.

Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?

Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?

Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

Where does Zechariah 14 make the remotest allusion to any of the detail described at the end of Revelation 20 and therefore the millennium, including the gathering of Gog and Magog to fight the camp of the saints, the destruction of the wicked in total, the destruction of the old earth and heavens and the replacement with the new, the resurrection of the wicked and “Great White Throne Judgement of sinners” 1,000 years after the judgement of the righteous?

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations. (Psalm 82:8)

The burden of not believing plain words of the Bible is on you. Not me.

Here you go again. There is no mention of a thousand years there. You know it. Your theology is built on sand. Where is any mention of a future millennium in the OT? Nowhere! It is all in your head.

The last days are now, and the new heaven and earth are after the this earth is dissolved and goes away from God's sight.

Agreed. Is it totally annihilated?

In between is the Lord coming again to this earth and ruling them of the nations that are not smitten:

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. (Rev 19:15)

See Scripture above that shows the destruction of the heavens and earth at the second coming. This forbids your theology.

Revelation 19:11-16: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.”

This is the end!

In this narrative He comes as the Lord of glory and removes all evil with the power of His Word. He returns as a man of war to destroy all those left behind. Revelation 19:11 says, “in righteousness he doth judge and make war.” The imagery surrounding Christ in this reading is that of wrath and judgment. The nations have missed their day of opportunity like the wicked in previous judgments, now they must face their deserved recompense of destruction and eternal punishment. Christ comes in glory and power to pour out wrath, and we learn "His eyes were as a flame of fire.” Here we see the indignation that Christ has for these enemies of God upon the earth. Those that are left behind of the nations – without exception – are trampled into a lost eternity on this moment of time.

The solemn language relates to the wrath of God being poured out on those left behind at the coming of Christ. This proves that “the nations” will not survive the wrath that emanates from Christ. How can any nation survive this closing destruction? This is final justice being meted out of the lost.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten. The word for “smite” in this text is the Greek word patasso, which means to strike with a weapon or to smite fatally. It means to smite down, cut down, to kill, slay.

Let us be clear: He is coming to smite down the nations, not corral them into some sin-cursed, goat-infested, death-blighted thousand-years age. It says that “he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” This is not a pretty sight. This is not loose talk by God. This is not something that the nations should look forward to. What awaits the nations that have rejected Christ is utter destruction and devastation. The nations left behind are totally destroyed. Christ destroys them by the very utterance of His mouth.

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

Verses 17-18 says, “I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. The loipoy (or remaining ones) those left behind were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”

This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind. There are no survivors!

If you take this out of the Premil armory there is nothing left. The whole Premil doctrine hangs upon a thin frayed thread. It enjoys no other support in Scripture. It solely and exclusively depends on the correlation and chronology of the Rev 19-20, which clearly doesn't exist.

 

[WPM]

So, now your just a false accuser based upon disagreeing with your anti-millennialism.

You're no longer worth the effort.

Oh, so you not accept that Christ is reigning today as King of kings and Lord of lords? That is an encouraging U-turn.

 

[WPM]

Whatever.

Significantly: you just avoided multiple Scripture that forbids your theology on the current rule of Christ. Why not just admit you are wrong?

The Millennium is defined as a thousand years. Today is the Lord's rule over His people on earth, that has been going on for a couple thousand years. And I for one am not reigning over anyone else's life with Him, except my own household and business, but certainly not over whole nations. And I wouldn't let you reign over my life here and now nor forever. I don't like your evil Millinium descriptions.

Avoidance, insults and running are Premils main 3 tactics in discussions like this. Part 1 has kicked in. Part 2 is probably about to happen. Your theology cannot abide God's explicit and repeated truth.

You can mock the supernatural power that has been bestowed upon the Church today, that goes with the territory of arguing Premil. You may not exercise any spiritual authority over Satan's kingdom today, but that does not negate the fact that God's redeemed do today since the First Advent. They are a victorious entity.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound. Where ever the light is shone the darkness is dispelled.

Think about that! Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go. As the Church of Jesus Christ spreads the good news (or light of the Gospel) throughout the world the devil is exposed for who he is: he is stupid, he is a fool, he is a loser.

For him to think that he could outsmart God, curtail God or defeat God is the ultimate definition of insanity. To properly understand the authority we are talking about we need to see the nature of the actual conflict that we are engaged in on this earth.

• It is spiritual.
• It is fought in the unseen heavenly realm.
• It’s supernatural.

Many Premils walk about today with a big devil and a small God, instead of a big God and a small devil. This is revealed in their timid, anxious, powerless, directionless, and ineffective lifestyle.

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact: “greater is he that is in you (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

Scriptures pits the battle between Christ and Satan, not even you and Satan. There is a power within us that enables us to rule over the realm of darkness.

Men are either “in Christ” or “in the world.” If you are in Christ then there is a power within you that is stronger than the devil and the kingdom of darkness.

Listen to what Paul teaches in Romans 8:16-17:

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Being “joint-heirs with Christ” means that we enjoy the benefits and privileges of what He won for us through His sinless life, His atoning death, and His victorious resurrection. What is more, as "joint-heirs with Christ" we reign because He reigns.

John says in Revelation 1:5-6, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us (present tense) kings and priests unto God and his father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.”

Hello! The Bible says we are kings!!!

What do kings do?

• They possess authority.
• They exercise power.
• They call the shots.
• They identify, confront and overcome their enemies.
• They rule over their enemies, their enemies do not rule over them.

The Christian does not try to produce authority, he has authority. It is who he is. Those who are always talking to talk, and not walking the walk, are all fizz and bubble. They are want-to-be Christians. But if you have authority and power people recognize it. It is who you are!

1 Peter 2:9 says of the Church, “Ye are a chosen generation, a royal (or kingly) priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light.”

Many Christians are under the mistaken impression that their spiritual kingship and place of reigning in Christ is all yet future; however, while we will rule in the future, we also rule now spiritually. We are presently a kingly priesthood.

Please read Romans 5:17, “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.”

We are positionally reigning now in life through Christ. We are in forcing God’s will around us. When God speaks we move, relay and do.

Whether we preach, prophecy, intercede, cast out devils, or pray for the sick, we must do it in Jesus name. Why? Because Christ is already defeated Satan, and by us being in Christ, we have the right to enforce that victory. Amen? That is our authority. That is our standing.

 

[WPM]

The Millennium is defined as a thousand years. Today is the Lord's rule over His people on earth, that has been going on for a couple thousand years. And I for one am not reigning over anyone else's life with Him, except my own household and business, but certainly not over whole nations. And I wouldn't let you reign over my life here and now nor forever. I don't like your evil Millinium descriptions.

Jesus said in Luke 10:18-19: “Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.”

We have power over Satan since the cross! If you are walking in obedience, the devil has no authority over you. But you have much power over him. Think about this we have power over Satan and all his demons! He cannot do as he pleases against the people of God. There is much Scripture that says we have power over him.

Some Christians respond, but what about 1 Peter 5:8? Let us read it: “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour.” The very next verse 1 Peter 5:9 affirms, “whom resist stedfast in the faith.”

The true church of Jesus Christ is a resistance movement. While Satan resists us, the Bible says we have power to resist him, and subjugate his purposes against us. We resist the lawlessness and evil encroachments of the devil around us.

In fact, James 4:7 tells us what happens when you do resist, “Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.”

This is incredible! You resist, he must flee. When the devil plants a temptation, a doubt or a fear, you simply have to resist it, whereupon Satan must get his boots on and run. This word “flee” in the original means to escape, flee away or vanish. Now think about it. When you resist, he must disappear. The conflict today for the Church is not an earthly battle to possess an earthly territory but a spiritual battle to possess spiritual territory.

1 John 2:14

14 I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

By resisting Satan, standing upon the Word of God, and staying steadfast, we have enormous individual impact upon the kingdom of darkness; we curtail the expansion of its evil designs.

Many Christians imagine power and authority to be the same thing. But as we found out last week: they are not! Scripture uses two different Greek words to describe the distinction.

Luk 9:1 Then he called his twelve disciples together, and gave them power [dunamis] and authority [exousia] over all devils, and to cure diseases.

• Authority = exousia
• Power = dunamis

I said last week: authority is the channel through which power operates. Authority is the legal authorization to function. Power has to do with the outworking of that authority.

According to this Satan should not have power and authority over you, but you should have power and authority over him.

You might respond: I do not believe that I have power or authority today to cast out devils or to see the sick healed. Well, according to your faith! If you don’t believe it, then you can be 100% sure that there is no way you will operate it.

1 John 5:18: “he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

 

[Always Believing]

Where is a millennium even mentioned in Ezekiel 40-48? That is an ancient prophecy old covenant. Do you also believe in restoration of the old covenant temple, sacrifices and priesthood?

His rule on earth in Ezekiel. A thousand years in Rev 20. That's why it's called His Millennium rule on earth. Which is over them not smitten of the nations in Rev 19.

Revelation 21 is NOT the millennium. It is after the millennium. Hello!

Don't know anyone who says that. With His second coming, there is first His Millium of Rev 20, and then there is God dwelling with man in Rev 21.

This regeneration refers to the perfection of redeemed men and the created order.

Nope.

This is what happens when our Lord comes. I agree with Barnes in his commentary re the "regeneration," “the word also means any great change, or a restoration of things to a former state or to a better state. In this sense it is probably used here.

Not probably, and not at all. It's a new created heaven and earth with the old passed away.

It refers to that great revolution-that restoration of order in the universe-that universal new birth which will occur when the dead shall rise, and all human things shall be changed, and a new order of things shall start up out of the ruins of the old,

The only ruins and hepas built upon will be Jerusalem and any cursed temple built by man, on this earth. Nor ruins on the new earth. All is created new, not transformed as new.

when the Son of man shall come to judgment. The passage, then, should be read, "Ye which have followed me shall, as a reward in the great day of the resurrection of the dead, and of forming the new and eternal order of things-the day of judgment, the regeneration-be signally honored and blessed.”

Whatever. I'll stick with the Bible. You're new age guru stuff just uses words to sound spiritual.

I am talking about the nature of your future earth, not what Amils expect.

Nothing of yours is mine. I don't want it.

What you propose is an unmitigated disaster.

Christ does not rule like the devil. That is a false accusation.

It is a mega bust. Premil wrongly portrays a millennium of unparalleled peace and submission to Jesus where the lion and the lamb finally rest together in unity and love and where the glorified saints enjoy final bliss and then bam the slaughter trucks pull up to take these same sheep to Jerusalem for slaughter. How cruel and pointless!

Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts.

being forced to come back to watch the folly of the rebuilding of a new temple, the debacle of futile animal sacrifices, the restoration of the old covenant priesthood, continued sin, death and decay.

I'm sure you'll be excluded by unbelief. I only hope to be in that resurrection and look forward to being in His Millinium.

Finally, the saints will have to engage in literal physical spiritual warfare in their glorified bodies with Satan and his global mortal army – Gog and Magog.

Sounds better everytime I hear it, but I only see fire of God come down from heaven.

They will be confronted with the awful sight of Satan being released from his prison to mobilize a global assault upon Jesus and the glorified saints in earthly Jerusalem.

Someone is a fraidy cat. You shouldn't fear Satan so much.

This army will consist of all the millennial mortals that have feigned worship to the Lord Jesus Christ for a thousand years

Natural men may indeed live that long again as before the flood, but Scripture does not say so.

If repeating yourself or pasting is all you have, then this isn't going to last much longer.

 

[Always Believing]

Agreed. Is it totally annihilated?

No. Dissolved and flees from the face of the God of judgment, and passes away. The new heaven and earth are then created.

The solemn language relates to the wrath of God being poured out on those left behind at the coming of Christ.

True. The unfaithful Christians will be left with the rest of the unbelievers on earth to suffer plagues, warfare, and cleansing of the earth of the goats. Only them living through it all will enter into His millennial reign.

This proves that “the nations” will not survive the wrath that emanates from Christ.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Them will.

How can any nation survive this closing destruction?

It's something you know nothing about for those you don't personally like. Mercy.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Your love for fire destroying others not like you is at least thousand years early. I doubt He will let you see His millinial reign nor the fire of God.

If you are resurrected from the dead, He'll probably just let you sit it out and wait for the rest of the dead to be judged. In the meantime, you can kick back and drink your nectar and ambrosia of bliss.

This is final justice being meted out of the lost.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” What is the result of this act? It shall “smite the nations” that have missed the catching away. This is what awaits the nations. They are going to be smitten.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Them not smitten will then be ruled by Him.

Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

He will come like the flood in it's unexpectedness, not in it's entirely of destruction.

For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Them left after the smiting will be ruled over by Him.

You refer to Sodom as Jesus's second coming, Not Jesus.

The only comparison to Sodom will be after a thousand years, and fire of God destroys all of Gog and Magog.

It enjoys no other support in Scripture.

Your enjoyment is not mine, and mine is not yours.

 

[Always Believing]

You can mock the supernatural power that has been bestowed upon the Church today, that goes with the territory of arguing Premil. You may not exercise any spiritual authority over Satan's kingdom today, but that does not negate the fact that God's redeemed do today since the First Advent. They are a victorious entity.

Whatever.

Jesus said in Matthew 16:18-19: “I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed In heaven.”

The Church of Jesus Christ carries “the keys (or authority) of the kingdom of heaven” now. They operate in the authority of that victorious kingdom through Christ. The Church has been given authority over the demonic realm of Satan; they have the kingly authority to resist every spiritual attack of the evil one upon their lives. Therefore, wherever the Church advances, the work of Satan is assuredly bound. Where ever the light is shone the darkness is dispelled.

True. When the Lord comes again He will advance all over the earth with His Light and rule over all nations, and not just over His own body of believers as today.

Think about that! Darkness cannot handle the light. When light shines, darkness must go.

Not so. Some still prefer darkness over light.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

This is the case with your anti-millennium of Jesus Christ.

For him to think that he could outsmart God, curtail God or defeat God is the ultimate definition of insanity.

True. That's why all Egyptians did not go down into the Red Sea bed. And why all people will not gather at Armageddon. One doesn't have to be a believer, to know the insanity of riding down between standing waves, and thinking to make war with the glorified Lord and His resurrected saints and armies of angels in the air.

To properly understand the authority we are talking about we need to see the nature of the actual conflict that we are engaged in on this earth.

• It is spiritual.
• It is fought in the unseen heavenly realm.

True, today. It will be seen on earth from the air.

• It’s supernatural.

That's not a Bible word. God's physical works in sight of men are called miracles. His works of punishment are called plagues.

Many Premils walk about today with a big devil and a small God, instead of a big God and a small devil. This is revealed in their timid, anxious, powerless, directionless, and ineffective lifestyle.

Whatever.

1 John 4:4 is not a cliché it is a fact: “greater is he that is in you (which is Jesus), than he that is in the world (Satan).”

Scriptures pits the battle between Christ and Satan, not even you and Satan.

Ah, so now you are preaching dead faith alone without works.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Your part in the first resurrection may not be so sure.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

You may not have to endure His millennial reign on earth afterall.

There is a power within us that enables us to rule over the realm of darkness.

You contradict yourself. You just said you have no fight with the devil. Or do you just have the power but don't use it? Use it or lose it.

Men are either “in Christ” or “in the world.”

True.

If you are in Christ then there is a power within you that is stronger than the devil and the kingdom of darkness.

Unless you lose it, because you don't use it. It's all by grace, so if we are not using the help of grace to overcome all temptation and flesh, then we have no grace nor power nor sacrifice remaining for past sins.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If we don't use that power God gives to believers, and resist the devil to overcome temptation rather than falling for it, then we will find ourselves with the adversaries at His coming again.

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So, you need to be careful about what you wish for in your love of fire destroying His adversaries, which includes His faithless Christian servants.

But if you have authority and power people recognize it. It is who you are! It is who you are!

Yeah, I can just see all the people quaking in the boots with your coming. The only power I see in your writing is boastful words of your own.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

And the powerful desire to see fire come down out of heaven and kill all your enemies you don't like.

Many Christians are under the mistaken impression that their spiritual kingship and place of reigning in Christ is all yet future; however, while we will rule in the future, we also rule now spiritually. We are presently a kingly priesthood.

The only place the resurrected saints rule is this earth. There is no such rule spoken of in the new earth, other than God and the Lamb dwelling with man in the new Jerusalem.

Whether we preach, prophecy, intercede, cast out devils, or pray for the sick, we must do it in Jesus name. Why?

Because Jesus says so:

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

That doesn't include the false prophecy of anti-millennialism.

 

[WPM]

His rule on earth in Ezekiel. A thousand years in Rev 20. That's why it's called His Millennium rule on earth. Which is over them not smitten of the nations in Rev 19.

LOL. That is a typical Premil move. Called by who "His Millennium rule on earth"? Invent an extra-biblical statement to support an an extra-biblical theory and then criticize Amils for not believing that extra-biblical theory. This sums up Premil! Where does it even say that in Rev 20? Nowhere!

Don't know anyone who says that. With His second coming, there is first His Millium of Rev 20, and then there is God dwelling with man in Rev 21.

Once again: it doesn't say that. You repeat what you have been taught as evidence without letting Scripture speak for itself. This is getting wearisome. Rev 20 takes us back to the first resurrection and the defeat of Satan.

Nope.

It doesn't seem to matter what the sacred text says, you believe your personal opinion overrides that. That is why it is difficult to engage with you. Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time. To hold this, it has to dismiss the different recaps (or different camera views pertaining to the intra-Advent period) that exist throughout the book of Revelation, divorce their opinion of these 2 chapters from repeated Scripture on this matter and also explain away the clear and explicit climactic detail that pertains to Revelation 19. Revelation 19 depicts the end of the world where all surviving mortal life is destroyed - "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great." Premillennialists conveniently refuse to take this literal because it exposes their thesis.

Not probably, and not at all. It's a new created heaven and earth with the old passed away.

Yes, that occurs at the second coming. Why do you refuse to address the Scriptures I have presented. When is the bondage of corruption lifted from creation?

Romans 8:16-23 declares, “The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption [Gr. phthartos or decay] into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.”

Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will be finally delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.”

Scripture makes it abundantly clear there will be an end to the current fallen state. There will be a day of complete deliverance.

At this juncture we must briefly enquire, what is this “bondage of corruption” spoken of in this passage that will one day be removed? It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden. This curse embodies every effect of the fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay.

The only ruins and hepas built upon will be Jerusalem and any cursed temple built by man, on this earth. Nor ruins on the new earth. All is created new, not transformed as new.

Where does Rev 20 say that?

Whatever. I'll stick with the Bible. You're new age guru stuff just uses words to sound spiritual.

Nothing of yours is mine. I don't want it.

You seem to have an issue with the original meaning.

Christ does not rule like the devil. That is a false accusation.

Who said He does? We are talking about your portrayal of a future millennium. It is a fantasy. It can be found nowhere in Rev 20. I suspect you know that. That is why you do not quote Scripture. That is a Premil trait.

Your age to come is saturated with sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions. To you this does not represent corruption, but to the rest of us it does.

I'm sure you'll be excluded by unbelief. I only hope to be in that resurrection and look forward to being in His Millinium.

You invent a fantasy event and then exclude me from it. LOL. I reject your inventions. Is Jesus Christ not enough for you? Is the cross not enough for you? Was the shedding of his blood not efficacious enough for you? He is certainly enough for those who are genuinely redeemed. He is enough for we Amils. They will not need mass blood-letting of countless innocent animals in the world to come "to express righteous sentiment just as they always did." That is ridiculous. Amils believe that the lion and the lamb will be at eternal rest in the age to come.

Sounds better everytime I hear it, but I only see fire of God come down from heaven.

Are there billions of mortal wicked in your millennium? Are there countless glorified saints? Where does it teach that in Rev 20?

Someone is a fraidy cat. You shouldn't fear Satan so much.

It is you and your fellow Premils that have a BIG devil and a small god. Don't push that on me. Amils have a victorious all-conquering Christ who rules and reigns over all creation.

Natural men may indeed live that long again as before the flood, but Scripture does not say so.

If repeating yourself or pasting is all you have, then this isn't going to last much longer.

Of course not. With Premils, it typically goes like this: Phase 1 is avoidance of the obvious. Phase 2 is insults and ad-hominem. Phase 3 is running. That is because they have no answer for the truth.

 

[WPM]

Whatever.


True. When the Lord comes again He will advance all over the earth with His Light and rule over all nations, and not just over His own body of believers as today.


Not so. Some still prefer darkness over light.

And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

This is the case with your anti-millennium of Jesus Christ.


True. That's why all Egyptians did not go down into the Red Sea bed. And why all people will not gather at Armageddon. One doesn't have to be a believer, to know the insanity of riding down between standing waves, and thinking to make war with the glorified Lord and His resurrected saints and armies of angels in the air.



True, today. It will be seen on earth from the air.



That's not a Bible word. God's physical works in sight of men are called miracles. His works of punishment are called plagues.


Whatever.


Ah, so now you are preaching dead faith alone without works.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

Your part in the first resurrection may not be so sure.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

You may not have to endure His millennial reign on earth afterall.


You contradict yourself. You just said you have no fight with the devil. Or do you just have the power but don't use it? Use it or lose it.


True.



Unless you lose it, because you don't use it. It's all by grace, so if we are not using the help of grace to overcome all temptation and flesh, then we have no grace nor power nor sacrifice remaining for past sins.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If we don't use that power God gives to believers, and resist the devil to overcome temptation rather than falling for it, then we will find ourselves with the adversaries at His coming again.

But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

So, you need to be careful about what you wish for in your love of fire destroying His adversaries, which includes His faithless Christian servants.



Yeah, I can just see all the people quaking in the boots with your coming. The only power I see in your writing is boastful words of your own.

My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

And the powerful desire to see fire come down out of heaven and kill all your enemies you don't like.

The only place the resurrected saints rule is this earth. There is no such rule spoken of in the new earth, other than God and the Lamb dwelling with man in the new Jerusalem.



Because Jesus says so:

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

That doesn't include the false prophecy of anti-millennialism.

You have totally missed the thrust of my post. You need to reread it.

 

[WPM]

No. Dissolved and flees from the face of the God of judgment, and passes away. The new heaven and earth are then created.

So, it does not disappear. It is recreated? What does that mean? Is it brand new?

True. The unfaithful Christians will be left with the rest of the unbelievers on earth to suffer plagues, warfare, and cleansing of the earth of the goats. Only them living through it all will enter into His millennial reign.

There were no survivors. That is what happens when Jesus comes. Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

How many wicked survived in Noah's day?
How many wicked survived in Sodom?

You know, in both of these examples, all the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed. So will it be when He appears. All the elect were immediately and totally rescued and all the wicked were immediately and totally destroyed, so will it be when He appears.

It is both the suddenness and the scale of the destruction happening that is enlightening for the end-time Bible student.

The plain focus of this teaching in Luke 17 (reference Noah and Lot’s day) is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction of the wicked in both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the whole individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire (1) taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2) When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't. To know God is eternal life (John 17:3). This was also the case in Noah and Lot's day. Nothing has changed. If humans know Him, they are rescued at His return, if they do not know Him, they are destroyed. Simple! Premils have no problems with this reality when it comes to Noah and Lot's day. They only get awkward and pedantic when it comes to the second coming, because it negates their doctrine. They feel the need to diminish the scale and timing of the destruction in order to populate their alleged future millennial earth.

There is an awful reward for the Christ-rejecter – this will come on that final last day when all will stand before the throne of God and receive their judgment. There, the living and the dead will receive their just reward. Whilst the persecutors and mockers are being destroyed and sent to hell, believers will be ushered into eternal “rest.” The tribulation that they have concentrated upon the righteous will be turned on the perpetrators. The Holy Spirit tells us that Christ appears at His Coming “in flaming fire” with the intention of taking “vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

 

[WPM]

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Them will.

This includes all mankind. Hello! You have to saturate your imaginary future millennium with billions of mortal rebels to support your error. In doing so, you must reject multiple Scripture that forbids this. Rev 19 is one of many passages that shows wholesale destruction. The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals the full extent of the devastation that is to be focused upon the wicked on the day of God’s wrath. In perfect keeping with the rest of Scripture, this narrative graphically shows us that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

It's something you know nothing about for those you don't personally like. Mercy.

And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.

Your love for fire destroying others not like you is at least thousand years early. I doubt He will let you see His millinial reign nor the fire of God.

If you are resurrected from the dead, He'll probably just let you sit it out and wait for the rest of the dead to be judged. In the meantime, you can kick back and drink your nectar and ambrosia of bliss.

No. It is my love of God's Book, His truth and His grace that causes me to tell you the truth. You have a real issue with that. You seem to be driven by your emotional feelings rather than what God states. That is a road to disaster. When Amils relay Scripture you advance this nonsense. Your fight is clearly with God's Book. You might have been angry with God as the flood and fire were poured out in Noah and Lot's day. You seem to have a major issue with the justice and wrath of God in Scripture. So sad.

The Psalmist says, in Psalm 50:3-6, “Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself.”

Psalm 97:3-5 testifies, “A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.”

Isaiah 11:4-5: “But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.”

This sounds very similar to Revelation 19.

Isaiah 13:9 says, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”

• What happens to “the land” when He comes?
• What happens to “the sinners” when He comes?

Isaiah 66:15-17: “For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.”

Would you like to be left behind here to deal with this?

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Can you see that statement: “Nothing shall escape”?

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

This text finishes with a question – a rhetorical question. That means the answer is plain and obvious. No one will survive this glorious climatic event.

Can you see the effect of the Lord’s glorious return? It is going to affect creation and the creature.

Nahum 1:1, 5-6 says, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies …The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.”

Again, you can see the link between the earth and human beings. Anything that is not redeemed will be destroyed.

Malachi 4:1 says, “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.”

 

[Always Believing]

You have totally missed the thrust of my post. You need to reread it.

No thanks. Once is burdensome enough.

 

[Always Believing]

This is getting wearisome.

True.

It doesn't seem to matter what the sacred text says, you believe your personal opinion overrides that. That is why it is difficult to engage with you.

Dittoes.

Premil hangs its doctrine on a very precarious frayed thread: that of Revelation 20 following Revelation 19 chronologically in time.

Ahh, a new twist. How so?

. Revelation 19 depicts the end of the world where all surviving mortal life is destroyed - "the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great."

Those at the battlefield have no quarter. It does not include them He rules afterward.

When is the bondage of corruption lifted from creation?

Left from our mortal bodies, not the grass and trees and lilies of the field. Pagan spiritism is false.

Both the creature and creation are waiting for “the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body” – or resurrection day. This is the day when both will be finally delivered from the aforementioned “bondage of corruption.”

The soul is redeemed today, and the body is redeemed in the first resurrection.

No grass and trees are redeemed.

Scripture makes it abundantly clear there will be an end to the current fallen state.

When them cease falling into temptation and sin in Christ Jesus, it is ended.

Fallen states of fallen trees in the world is natural. They do not rise again. Flowers and plants can be lifted back up on poles to continue living, if they are not already dead at the roots.

There will be a day of complete deliverance.

True, of soul, spirit, and body of men that believe, love and obey Him.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Trees obey Him by growing, but they have no soul nor spirit to love and obey Him. Pagan spiritism is false.

It is the awful curse that came upon all mankind as a result of Adam’s fall in the Garden of Eden.

The only awful curse you have, is if you are still sinning in works of the flesh, but that's only awful for you, not for me.

This curse embodies every effect of the fall that afflicts man, including sin, death, and every form of decay.

Death of the soul comes by sinning. Death of the body comes by being made mortally natural. So it was in the beginning with Adam's body, and so it is today. Christ still creates man with natural bodies of flesh and blood and dust.

Where does Rev 20 say that?

I no more bother correcting you about prophecy being only found in one place of the Bible. You can look up heap of Jerusalem for yourself.

You seem to have an issue with the original meaning.

If it's of your origin, then certainly. Although it's not really an issue with me, but just simple rejection out of hand.

Who said He does? We are talking about your portrayal of a future millennium. It is a fantasy.

You do. You also mock it.

Your age to come is saturated with sin and sinners, dying and crying, decay and disease, war and terror, and Satan and his minions.

As I just said.

You invent a fantasy event and then exclude me from it. LOL. I reject your inventions. Is Jesus Christ not enough for you? Is the cross not enough for you? Was the shedding of his blood not efficacious enough for you?

Whatever.

 

[Always Believing]

So, it does not disappear. It is recreated? What does that mean? Is it brand new?

It is dissolved, flees from God's face, and passes away.

The new heaven and earth is then created.

There were no survivors.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture says otherwise. I don't dote about words and meaning of words. We either believe what is written or we don't.

How many wicked survived in Noah's day? How many wicked survived in Sodom?

Already responded to this. You bring in Sodom at Jesus's coming again. Not the Bible.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this more water-tight: men either know God or they don't.

True. During His Millennium reign many more will know the Lord. Your unbelief and mocking of it doesn't change it.

 

[Always Believing]

This includes all mankind. Hello!

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Not them.

You have to saturate your imaginary future millennium with billions of mortal rebels to support your error. In doing so, you must reject multiple Scripture that forbids this. Rev 19 is one of many passages that shows wholesale destruction. The first part of the narrative outlines a detailed account of the assignment given to “the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven” by the heavenly messenger. The “fowls” are instructed to “come and gather” themselves “together unto the supper of the great God” in order that they would “eat”:

1. The flesh of kings,
2. The flesh of captains,
3. The flesh of mighty men,
4. The flesh of horses, them that sit on them,
5. The flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

True. All in one great place around Armageddon. They aren't commanded to gather together, if all the world is covered in dead flesh.

Neither do they eat charred dead flesh from fire of God, that devours all of Gog and Magog, both flesh and bones.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

They only gather where an edible caracase is.

If no flesh lives after His coming, then that includes fowls of the air.

You have no clue what you are talking about. Reality means nothing more to people, when they reject plain meaning of words in the Bible.

This passage powerfully and solemnly reveals

Whatever.

this narrative graphically shows us

Whatever.

that the destruction that occurs will be immediate, absolute and total and that, at this stage – after “the marriage of the Lamb” (Rev 19:7) – everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.”

Not if devoured by fire of God from heaven. Reality is lost on you.

Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

True. No mercy for anyone gathered for war against the Lamb around Armageddon. Just as Pharaoh and his armies driving down into the red sea bed.

You might have been angry with God as the flood and fire were poured out in Noah and Lot's day. You seem to have a major issue with the justice and wrath of God in Scripture.

The judgment and wrath of God is just. Your's isn't.

So sad.

Whatever.

The Psalmist says, in Psalm 50:3-6, “Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him. He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that he may judge his people. Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice. And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is judge himself.”

The Lord comes again, judges His people, raises the faithful unto Himself in the air. The hypocrite Christians are left on earth.

Psalm 97:3-5 testifies, “A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about. His lightnings enlightened the world: the earth saw, and trembled. The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.”

No mercy to His enemies round about Armageddon, every eye shall see Him at His coming and tremble under rocks and dens, and the hills round about Armageddon melt like wax.

Isaiah 11:4-5: “But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.”

The separation from sheep and goats that remain after destruction in Judea. The sheep judged by works become saved and enter into His Millennial rule over them.

This sounds very similar to Revelation 19.

Isaiah 13:9 says, “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”

The land around Armageddon is laid desolate, and the sinners thereof are destroyed without mercy.

Isaiah 66:15-17: “For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD.”

Would you like to be left behind here to deal with this?

No, but them not slain that are many, shall be saved for His Millennial reign.

Joel 2:1-3 says, “for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand; A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations. A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.”

Nothing around the land of Armeggedon shall escape.

Can you see that statement: “Nothing shall escape”?

Joel 2:10-11: “The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”

This text finishes with a question – a rhetorical question. That means the answer is plain and obvious. No one will survive this glorious climatic event.

Not rhetorical but real. Who will be them that live to be ruled by Him.

A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!

The children of Anak did not kill everyone they came to.

Can you see the effect of the Lord’s glorious return? It is going to affect creation and the creature.

True, but not all until the earth is dissolved with scorching heart.

There will be no fowls, nor dead flesh to eat.

Nahum 1:1, 5-6 says, “God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies …The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein. Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.”

Again, you can see the link between the earth and human beings.

True, in all warfare both men and the land are affected.

Anything that is not redeemed will be destroyed.

Trees and grass are not redeemed. Pagan spiritism is false.

Malachi 4:1 says, “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.”

All the proud gathered at Armageddon will be burned up by the brightness of His coming and by the word of His mouth. Then the fowls will eat what remains of the charred flesh. But not the eyes. They will be melted.

 

[WPM]

It is dissolved, flees from God's face, and passes away.

The new heaven and earth is then created.

Scripture tells us that we are coming back to earth, but I believe it will be a regenerated earth (Malachi 4:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50, 2 Peter 3). It will be an earth totally purged of all corruption. The new heavens and a new earth (in whatever form God chooses) will appear at the coming of Christ. It will involve (at very least) the burning up of the crust of our current earth. This current earth will be totally changed / regenerated – making it a new curse-free environment. The earth will be restored to its previous pristine condition. These passages would sway me towards the position that this earth will remain forever – only in a new condition.

Job prophesied that the Lord would stand on this earth at the end of the age. Job 19:25-26: “For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God.” There is no other earth than this present one that Job would have been familiar with.

Psalm 37:9-11 says, “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.”

Psalm 37:22 says, “For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.”

Psalm 25:12-13 says: “What man is he that feareth the LORD? him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose. His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.”

Christ confirmed this in Matthew 5:5 saying, “Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.”

It wouldn't be much of an inheritance if the meek had no earth to inherit. What is more, God keeps His Word. He does not break His promise. The reason this will be fulfilled is because the world last forever, albeit in a perfected condition.

It does not make sense to teach that this earth will be completely annihilated and replaced by an entirely separate new earth. that would contradict multiple Scriptures which indicate that the earth will last forever.

Another strong reason to believe that this current earth will be regenerated is the fact that different Old Testament Scriptures tell us that this earth will last forever. These passages would suggest the continuation of this earth in some form.

Ecclesiastes 1:4 says, “the earth abideth forever.”

Psalm 78:69 says, “the earth which he hath established forever.”

Psalm 93:1b says, “The world also is established, that it cannot be moved.”

Psalm 96:10 says, “the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved.”

Psalm 104:5 says, “Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed forever.”

This literally means “So that it will not totter forever and ever." The word totter means, to refrain from moving out of place.

 

[WPM]

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Scripture says otherwise. I don't dote about words and meaning of words. We either believe what is written or we don't.

No. You just fight with the actual literal wording of Scripture. You have to for Premil to fit. There are no survivors - as Scripture repeatedly states. You have no answer for that - apart from explain it away.

After “the marriage of the Lamb” (Revelation 19:7), which is the glorification of the saints of all time (including the dead in Christ and the live in Christ), the saints return as an army (following Christ) to destroy the wicked. John sees “heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True … And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean” (11-14).

The beast's army is totally destroyed in Revelation 19. There are no wicked to inherit the millennium, as Premil contends. They are wiped. Everyone left behind will be completely consumed; the birds of heaven filling themselves with “the flesh of all men.” Significantly, the suffix “both free and bond, both small and great” is added in order to fully impress the enormity and all-inclusive nature of this feast.

Christ is seen pouring out His wrath without mixture upon the nations as He smites them in His fury with “a sharp sword” that comes “out of his mouth.” He destroys them by the very utterances of His mouth. He then “treadeth (or tramples) the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.”

The two words interpreted “fierceness” and “wrath” here are thumos and orge which are regularly employed in the New Testament to mean ‘fierceness, indignation, wrath, indignation and vengeance’. The word orge carries the additional meaning of ‘violent passion’. Clearly the Lord is not happy with those left behind. Like those left behind in Noah’s day and Sodom they face an awful end, as they receive the reward of their rejection of Christ.

The picture being portrayed here is that of the grapes being crushed by the vineyard worker making wine. The reference to “the winepress” is symbolic language denoting the fate of the wicked when Christ appears – that is why it is called “the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.” The Christ-rejecter misses the catching away, and is consequently trampled underfoot like grapes being crushed in a winepress. The grapes are the disobedient of all nations.

How can these rebels possibly escape such a furious end? True judgment and righteousness has now arrived in the form of Christ and the glorified saints. Like every other Second Coming passage, this is climactic language describing the final end of rebellious man.

Already responded to this. You bring in Sodom at Jesus's coming again. Not the Bible.

Tell the truth and shame the devil. You did not address this major contradiction in your position. You avoided it like every other point. You bare all over the place. You are fighting with the OT, Jesus and the NT in every post.

Jesus said in Luke 17:26-30, “as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.”

After speaking of the “days of Noe” and the “days of Lot,” the Lord then explains of a singular “day” when the righteous were rescued and the wicked were destroyed. Whilst the Lord presents the rebellion and debauchery that preceded both of these judgments as a sign of how things will exist prior to the day of His all-consummating appearing, the main focus of His teaching relates to the focus and scale of the wrath which did fall on these two solemn days of destruction and how they accurately reflect what will happen at the second coming. Both individually and jointly, they supply us with a stunning insight into the nature of the actual day that Christ’s returns and to the days that precede His glorious second coming. In their substance and importance these two Old Testament days are distinct and unique. And whilst the nature of the judgment and geographical extent of both appreciably varies, brought-together, they graphically represent (1) the type of catastrophe coming, and (2) the scale of the destruction at the end. Scripture nowhere separates in time the gathering of the Lord's people to Himself with the destruction of the wicked.

The plain focus of this narrative is the nature and degree of the judgment that befell the wicked in these two familiar Old Testament stories and especially the extent of that particular wrath. The key element and major emphasis of this discourse is the fact (speaking of the ungodly) that God “destroyed them all.” The comprehensive destruction in of the wicked both of these examples is the important lesson of the narrative; both the whole world of Noah’s day and the individual city of Sodom in Lot’s day saw the immediate and complete rescue of the entire righteous coupled together with the immediate and complete destruction of the entire wicked. Christ plainly and purposefully advanced these two days, where the righteous were graciously rescued just prior to the full annihilation of the wicked, in order to vividly portray the nature and scope of the day of His wrath at the second coming. Jesus succinctly said, “Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).

Jude verse 6-8 says, “And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.”

This passage seems to strongly indicate that there were other cities outside of Sodom and Gomorrah that were (1) giving over to “fornication, and going after strange flesh, and consequently (2) suffered the same awful vengeance of God’s wrath that the twin cities. Therefore, that were given over to this gross iniquity were totally destroyed in this awful conflagration.

 

[WPM]

True. During His Millennium reign many more will know the Lord. Your unbelief and mocking of it doesn't change it.

It is hard to believe, but this is actually your response to Holy Writ. Seriously? You really do not get it. All you have is denials of truth. That is the theme of your responses. You have no explanations. There is nothing you can do with the truth apart from fight it. I am seeing a definite pattern with you, one that marks most Premil rebuttals: you do not address the many contradictions and errors in Premil. You have to paper-over them as if they do not exist and present evasive fly-by private interpretations. I am not sure how you can be content with such an ad-hoc approach to Scripture. To let the Word speak for itself would force you to abandon Premil.

II Thessalonians 1:4-10 records: “we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

There are no goats left to enter into your supposed future millennium!!!

Christ appears at His Second Advent “in flaming fire” with the purpose of taking “vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.” There is hence absolutely no provision made for unbelievers surviving this all-consummating event. The destruction of the total wicked comes from the actual appearance of Christ at the time of the Second coming. Expressly, it is “the presence of the Lord” and “the glory of his power” that causes the destruction of the wicked at the end. It is clearly not a thousand years after the Lord’s appearing as the Premillennialist would try and argue. Neither is there any exceptions, no allowance is made for natural Israel or for the so-called ‘sheep nations’, as Premillennialists try to do.

 

[WPM]

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Not them.



True. All in one great place around Armageddon. They aren't commanded to gather together, if all the world is covered in dead flesh.

Neither do they eat charred dead flesh from fire of God, that devours all of Gog and Magog, both flesh and bones.

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

They only gather where an edible caracase is.

If no flesh lives after His coming, then that includes fowls of the air.

You have no clue what you are talking about. Reality means nothing more to people, when they reject plain meaning of words in the Bible.

Whatever.


Whatever.


Not if devoured by fire of God from heaven. Reality is lost on you.


True. No mercy for anyone gathered for war against the Lamb around Armageddon. Just as Pharaoh and his armies driving down into the red sea bed.


The judgment and wrath of God is just. Your's isn't.


Whatever.


The Lord comes again, judges His people, raises the faithful unto Himself in the air. The hypocrite Christians are left on earth.


No mercy to His enemies round about Armageddon, every eye shall see Him at His coming and tremble under rocks and dens, and the hills round about Armageddon melt like wax.


The separation from sheep and goats that remain after destruction in Judea. The sheep judged by works become saved and enter into His Millennial rule over them.


The land around Armageddon is laid desolate, and the sinners thereof are destroyed without mercy.



No, but them not slain that are many, shall be saved for His Millennial reign.



Nothing around the land of Armeggedon shall escape.


Not rhetorical but real. Who will be them that live to be ruled by Him.

A people great and tall, the children of the Anakims, whom thou knowest, and of whom thou hast heard say, Who can stand before the children of Anak!

The children of Anak did not kill everyone they came to.


True, but not all until the earth is dissolved with scorching heart.

There will be no fowls, nor dead flesh to eat.



True, in all warfare both men and the land are affected.



Trees and grass are not redeemed. Pagan spiritism is false.


All the proud gathered at Armageddon will be burned up by the brightness of His coming and by the word of His mouth. Then the fowls will eat what remains of the charred flesh. But not the eyes. They will be melted.

Where does it say "The hypocrite Christians are left on earth"?
Where does it mention Armageddon here? Please quote.

All i see is a litany of denying Scripture and rubbishing its veracity and detail. Sad!

Armageddon is mentioned once in the NT, you insert it into a lot of Scripture. The fact is when Jesus comes the righteous are immediately rescued, the wicked are immediately destroyed. If you ask me, you seem to limit the detailed description of "the thief in the night" statement in order to facilitate the saturation of the wicked in the supposed Premil future millennium.

How about actually telling us where the Bible teaches that there will be survivors after the "battle of Armageddon," instead of making these fantastic claims?

 

[Truth7t7]

There is nothing you can do with the truth apart from fight it. I am seeing a definite pattern with you, one that marks most Premil rebuttals: you do not address the many contradictions and errors in Premil. You have to paper-over them as if they do not exist and present evasive fly-by private interpretations. I am not sure how you can be content with such an ad-hoc approach to Scripture. To let the Word speak for itself would force you to abandon Premil.

I say the same for those who promote reformed preterist eschatology in 66-70AD fulfillment

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord