The thief on the cross misconceptions

[mailmandan]

Just one small but important point of clarification for you. It's by water baptism that you receive the gift of the spirit and are added to the Lord's body, the church per Acts 2:38-47.

Acts 2:41 - Then they that gladly received his word were (afterwards) baptized and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Nothing is mentioned here about baptism being the direct cause of being added to the Lord's body.

In Acts 4:4, we read - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Also in Acts 5:14, we read - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

You don't receive the sprit any other way, and the only way instances that the spirit fell unilaterally were recorded in Acts 2 and 10. In Acts 2, the spirit fellon the apostles as a sign to the Jews. In Acts 10 it fell on the Gentiles as a sign, after which they too required baptism.

Compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

 

[DJT_47]

Acts 2:41 - Then they that gladly received his word were (afterwards) baptized and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. Nothing is mentioned here about baptism being the direct cause of being added to the Lord's body.

In Acts 4:4, we read - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Also in Acts 5:14, we read - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.


Compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

You are not harmonizing scripture. Do you think all the elements of salvation are listed every time and in every related scripture? They are not. You must put all the elements together as extracted from all related scriptures to get the entire picture. No different than reading all 4 gospels to get the combined, complete, message; or by combining everything gleaned from all the various writings of the NT to get a complete understanding of the lessons being taught.

Read the account of the conversion of the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8. There you will find all the elements of salvation except repentance is mor mentioned. Does that mean repentance isn't required also, or that it wasn't necessary fir the eunuch or taught to him? I doubt it. There you find belief, confession of belief, and baptism, but repentance wasn't mentioned. Read other conversions/scriptures such as where repentance only is mentioned, or belief only is mentioned, or confession only. Your logic is not sound.

 

[mailmandan]

You are not harmonizing scripture. Do you think all the elements of salvation are listed every time and in every related scripture? They are not. You must put all the elements together as extracted from all related scriptures to get the entire picture. No different than reading all 4 gospels to get the combined, complete, message; or by combining everything gleaned from all the various writings of the NT to get a complete understanding of the lessons being taught.

What you are doing is taking scripture and "patching it together" and the end result is salvation by faith + works, which is not properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. Your 4 step plan of salvation: 1. Believe (but still lost) 2. Repent (but still lost) 3. Confess (but still lost) 4. Water baptized (finally saved) is a false gospel. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..)

 

[DJT_47]

What you are doing is taking scripture and "patching it together" and the end result is salvation by faith + works, which is not properly harmonizing scripture with scripture. Your 4 step plan of salvation: 1. Believe (but still lost) 2. Repent (but still lost) 3. Confess (but still lost) 4. Water baptized (finally saved) is a false gospel. (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9; Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..)

Yes, patching scripture together is exactly what you must do when reading the bible.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, patching scripture together is exactly what you must do when reading the bible.

Only if you want to distort passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a "different" gospel plan. Repentance is a "change of mind" which precedes saving belief/faith in Christ (Acts 20:21). Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47) *Hermeneutics.

 

[DJT_47]

Only if you want to distort passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" a "different" gospel plan. Repentance is a "change of mind" which precedes saving belief/faith in Christ (Acts 20:21). Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-47) *Hermeneutics.

On the contrary. You patch scripture together to gain a complete understanding of what was being taught piecemeal. Believe what you like. Goodbye

 

[mailmandan]

On the contrary. You patch scripture together to gain a complete understanding of what was being taught piecemeal. Believe what you like. Goodbye

That's it? So you are thoroughly satisfied with what you already believe and don't want to be confused with the facts? Suit yourself then.

 

[ScottA]

What's sad is when people reject plain scripture as you obviously do.

The problem is, many think the scripture is "plain."

 

[Behold]

salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ.

You've got that backwards, DJT_47

Water Baptism, was a Jewish rite, performed by John The Baptist (John the water baptizer).
This rite was continued in Acts 2 by Peter, as that was all he knew at the time.
So, as the revelation of the Gospel of the Grace of God was later was given to Paul directly by Christ Himself, we see that water baptism became a symbolic only situation.

This is why Paul teaches .... "Christ sent me not to water baptize".
He says this for the benefit of people who would try to create a false doctrine, regarding "water is necessary for Salvation">
And of course any real believer understands that CHRIST'S BLOOD and DEATH is the requirement, as this is the "Gospel".

Water as Salvation (baptismal regeneration) is taught by "water cults' such as the "cult of Mary" or the Jehovah's Witness group.

Should you be water baptized?
Yes, as this public confession of your Faith in Christ, symbolizes you afterwards, as being risen as the new creation.

I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.

 

[DJT_47]

You've got that backwards, DJT_47

Water Baptism, was a Jewish rite, performed by John The Baptist (John the water baptizer).
This rite was continued in Acts 2 by Peter, as that was all he knew at the time.
So, as the revelation of the Gospel of the Grace of God was later was given to Paul directly by Christ Himself, we see that water baptism became a symbolic only situation.

This is why Paul teaches .... "Christ sent me not to water baptize".
He says this for the benefit of people who would try to create a false doctrine, regarding "water is necessary for Salvation">
And of course any real believer understands that CHRIST'S BLOOD and DEATH is the requirement, as this is the "Gospel".

Water as Salvation (baptismal regeneration) is taught by "water cults' such as the "cult of Mary" or the Jehovah's Witness group.

Should you be water baptized?
Yes, as this public confession of your Faith in Christ, symbolizes you afterwards, as being risen as the new creation.

I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.

 

[DJT_47]

John's baptism was not based upon Jewish rites. It was the precursor to the baptism into Christ pursuant to Acts 2:38. Identical in nature but not one that saves or places you in the body of Christ which is the church which the Lord himself does (Acts 2:47), nor did John's give the gifts of the Holy Ghost.

Also for your edification, you must read a bit further in 1Cor to understand Paul's comment. 1 Cor 3:6-8 says Paul preached and Apollos watered.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

What came FIRST, the water or the Salvation

You need to read what the Apostle Peter said FIRST

For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh
but made alive by the Spirit,

FIRST Christ/Salvation enters our hearts = the answer of a good conscience toward God
then a dunk in earthbound water that never can do for that which was already DONE

Remember these words from the SAVIOR = "IT IS FINISHED"

Salvation occurs at the time one is water baptized for when one obediently submits to water baptism, it's then God does the work of removing the body of sin, Col 2:11-13. God therefore has chosen water baptism, (not a sinner's prayer, not by faith only, not by Spirit baptism) but water baptism as the means by which He saves men. This is why is all the conversions in Acts men were all water baptized.

Again, 1 Pet 3:21 says baptism saves therefore to deny that water baptism saves is denying the plain teaching of the BIble. Water baptism is the appeal in order to have a good conscience. The purpose of water baptism is in order to have the remission of sins. After convicting those Jews in Acts 2 of their sins (they were pricked in their hearts), they made an appeal for a good conscience (What shall we do?) and the means by which they could face God with a good conscience was by being commanded to be baptized to have those sins remitted.

OT type:------------------saved by water (flood)
NT antitype:----------saved by water (baptism)

1 Pet 3:18
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh
but made alive by the Spirit
This verse says NOTHING at all about Christ first entering one's heart whereby one is then saved and can later be baptized. You read much into the verse that is not there. AGAIN, the context says BAPTISM SAVES and there is nothing anyone can ever do to change this eternal truth of God. Man may try and pervert it but it always remains a truth.

When Christ said 'it is finished' He was referring to His work, His earthly ministry, His dying for the sins of mankind was done, accomplished. Man must still be obedient (Heb 5:9) in order to be saved by what Christ accomplished on earth.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

God has placed life and death before us all. You have chosen, as have I. So be it.

Rom 6:16, the choice put before all is to either be lost by serving "sin unto death" or be saved by serving "obedience unto righteousness". I have chosen to serve obedience unto righteousness by obeying God's righteous command to be water baptized for the remission of sins.

 

[ScottA]

Rom 6:16, the choice put before all is to either be lost by serving "sin unto death" or be saved by serving "obedience unto righteousness". I have chosen to serve obedience unto righteousness by obeying God's righteous command to be water baptized for the remission of sins.

You have completely missed the point of water vs. spirit baptism and birth.

Being born of water and born [again] of the spirit, is as I said: being water born or baptized is "death." Read Rom 6:16 again--"The wages of sin is death." "It is the Spirit who gives life."

 

[ButterflyJones]

The thief on his cross clearly not only knew who Jesus was but also held him in faith.

I believe the argument that insists we must be water baptized or else we are not in God's saving grace adds man's act to secure God's grace filled free gift of irrevocable salvation.

Jesus promised the thief he would be with Jesus in paradise. The thief knew Jesus and Jesus certainly knew that thief.

I believe the teaching that insists immersion is mandatory misses the point of grace.

It would also insure people in parts of the world where water is not in abundance or scarce have no chance of Salvation. Which would then encumber the great commissions field of service.I.E the whole world.

 

[DJT_47]

The thief on his cross clearly not only knew who Jesus was but also held him in faith.

I believe the argument that insists we must be water baptized or else we are not in God's saving grace adds man's act to secure God's grace filled free gift of irrevocable salvation.

Jesus promised the thief he would be with Jesus in paradise. The thief knew Jesus and Jesus certainly knew that thief.

I believe the teaching that insists immersion is mandatory misses the point of grace.

It would also insure people in parts of the world where water is not in abundance or scarce have no chance of Salvation. Which would then encumber the great commissions field of service.I.E the whole world.

Read my other comments on this. The subject of baptism as relates to the thief should not even be considered since Jesus was still alive, meaning the old covenant was still on effect and not new. Si you couldn't possibly be baptized into Christ or his death as required under the new testament since he wasn't dead. Note the ref to Hebrews previously mentioned which clarifies this.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Read my other comments on this. The subject of baptism as relates to the thief should not even be considered since Jesus was still alive, meaning the old covenant was still on effect and not new. Si you couldn't possibly be baptized into Christ or his death as required under the new testament since he wasn't dead. Note the ref to Hebrews previously mentioned which clarifies this.

Yes, I did see your earlier post.

 

[David in NJ]

The thief on his cross clearly not only knew who Jesus was but also held him in faith.

I believe the argument that insists we must be water baptized or else we are not in God's saving grace adds man's act to secure God's grace filled free gift of irrevocable salvation.

Jesus promised the thief he would be with Jesus in paradise. The thief knew Jesus and Jesus certainly knew that thief.

I believe the teaching that insists immersion is mandatory misses the point of grace.

It would also insure people in parts of the world where water is not in abundance or scarce have no chance of Salvation. Which would then encumber the great commissions field of service.I.E the whole world.

AGREE

Thief on the cross who the New Covenant saved is a Perfect Picture of God's Grace.

God has saved many people at their deathbed where no time for water baptism was applicable.

God's Plan = our heart believing thru faith on Christ who died for our sins.

 

[DJT_47]

AGREE

Thief on the cross who the New Covenant saved is a Perfect Picture of God's Grace.

God has saved many people at their deathbed where no time for water baptism was applicable.

God's Plan = our heart believing thru faith on Christ who died for our sins.

There is no such thing as last minute salvation on someone's deathbed nor examples of this or inference of this in the bible. It's man conceived nonsense as well as being contrary to the NT teaching on salvation. No one has been saved at the last moment of their life out of fear and desperation. They've had their life to seek the Lord but didn't do so by believing and being obedient to the gospel.

 

[ButterflyJones]

There is no such thing as last minute salvation on someone's deathbed nor examples of this or inference of this in the bible. It's man conceived nonsense as well as being contrary to the NT teaching on salvation. No one has been saved at the last moment of their life out of fear and desperation. They've had their life to seek the Lord but didn't do so by believing and being obedient to the gospel.

Scripture that supports your claim please. Thank you in advance