Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[robert derrick]

There is no practicality in dying, but rather in living. Thus, it is also written, "the flesh profits nothing."

Once again, I wouldn't phrase things the way you do. Death of the body is completely practical, because it is the body being dead. The flesh profits nothing with God in matter of covenant today, other than cleansing the spirit and flesh of all filthiness. And the body being dead is a practical fact, without any profit in it, other than there not being a dead body to be resurrected from the dead.

It is also entirely practical in Christ to be walking bodily with Him in righteousness and true holiness. That is the practical godliness in this life, which is the practise of walking as Jesus walked.

 

[ScottA]

I agree that all those transgressing as Adam, can be said to be in Adam and even called sinful Adam. If we see like Adam our old man, then we are condemned like Adam in his transgression. But, no other man than Adam was in Adam in the beginning. And the only men to be born of Adam were the babes in Eve's womb, Cain, Abel, Seth...

It is written:

1 Corinthians 15:22​

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

 

[robert derrick]

Should I therefore renew my language, or as it is written, you "the renewing of your mind?" I have explained, and I have also explained my explanation, and will continue to do so--to a point.

The problem here is not clarity or plainness of speech, but of darkness and of seeing dimly. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

True, but your shining is not in a language common to man. But the Bible is written in plain language that children can understand. If God can reveal His word in such plainness of speech, then so can we teach His word the same way. I'm only telling you what I learned long ago: if we can't write in a way our conclusions of much study, so that the common man can at least understand it, then we are not able to teach others our conclusions. I'm not trying to decipher your doctrinal language anymore. Your above posts have been good, because I can easily understand what you are trying to say. We can always write in our spiritual, doctrinal, and Scriptural way, but if we want to teach it to others, we need to conclude it in common grammatical sentences.

 

[ScottA]

True, but your shining is not in a language common to man. But the Bible is written in plain language that children can understand. If God can reveal His word in such plainness of speech, then so can we teach His word the same way. I'm only telling you what I learned long ago: if we can't write in a way our conclusions of much study, so that the common man can at least understand it, then we are not able to teach others our conclusions. I'm not trying to decipher your doctrinal language anymore. Your above posts have been good, because I can easily understand what you are trying to say. We can always write in our spiritual, doctrinal, and Scriptural way, but if we want to teach it to others, we need to conclude it in common grammatical sentences.

Granted, clanging cymbals are one thing, parables are another, but revelation, hearing, and sight is from God.

All in good time.

 

[robert derrick]

It is written:

1 Corinthians 15:22​

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.​

All die spiritually by sinning as Adam.

I agree this means those who are sinning as Adam, are those now in Adam. All those now in Christ are made alive as Christ, and are walking as he walked after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

The same spiritual death passed upon Adam by His own transgression, also passes upon all men that sin life him like him. And all have sinned by one.

Until we sin, there is no spiritual death upon us, even as with Adam before he sinned. It has nothing to do with the body, which dies naturally after birth, because it is only made by Christ of dust to return to the dust.

 

[robert derrick]

Granted, clanging cymbals are one thing, parables are another, but revelation, hearing, and sight is from God.

All in good time.

I understand what you are saying, and I'm not faulting you for having your manner of speech conformed by your learning of Scripture. I have another form of speaking conformed as well. However, if we are clanging cymbals to the unlearned, then we are not being charitable in our doctrine. I train myself to keep common grammar and speech in order to teach it to others. For us who have our own form of language conformed by Scripture, we must wilfully make it plain for others. If we have this hope like Paul, then also like Paul we will speak plainly to reveal it to others.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech.

He did so, that others may learn His same hope in Christ. I believe that is why the one from 3rd heaven was discouraged from speaking the heavenly things revealed to him in that language of the heavens, and rather keep it plain and simple in trying to reveal it to others.

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The words were not unspeakably filthy nor in error, nor is it a matter of law to try and utter them to others. It's simply a matter of condescending to others of lower degree in revelation. It's just not convenient in ministry to utter our revelations spoken only in heavenly places.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The point is that I'm not going to learn yours, nor do I try to teach you mine. My history teacher taught me first, that speaking in our professorial jargon does no good to teach higher learning to others still unlearned.

Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

 

[ScottA]

All die spiritually by sinning as Adam.

I agree this means those who are sinning as Adam, are those now in Adam. All those now in Christ are made alive as Christ, and are walking as he walked after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

The same spiritual death passed upon Adam by His own transgression, also passes upon all men that sin life him like him. And all have sinned by one.

Until we sin, there is no spiritual death upon us, even as with Adam before he sinned. It has nothing to do with the body, which dies naturally after birth, because it is only made by Christ of dust to return to the dust.

No, but we are rather first born since Eve "in kind." That is, born in sin and of sin--the children of sin, of Satan our father.

But there is another issue hard to understand for the scriptures seem to say one thing and then another: That is, that we are "one", but also referred to each as "sons" as in plural. I say "one" regarding all who sin, and also "one" regarding being in Christ. But your response is rather along the lines and logic of the plural. Which would tend to make more sense by logic according to the number of the many who are born...except that the scriptures also define us as one bride and one body. Therefore, so do I.

 

[ScottA]

I understand what you are saying, and I'm not faulting you for having your manner of speech conformed by your learning of Scripture. I have another form of speaking conformed as well. However, if we are clanging cymbals to the unlearned, then we are not being charitable in our doctrine. I train myself to keep common grammar and speech in order to teach it to others. For us who have our own form of language conformed by Scripture, we must wilfully make it plain for others. If we have this hope like Paul, then also like Paul we will speak plainly to reveal it to others.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech.

He did so, that others may learn His same hope in Christ. I believe that is why the one from 3rd heaven was discouraged from speaking the heavenly things revealed to him in that language of the heavens, and rather keep it plain and simple in trying to reveal it to others.

How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

The words were not unspeakably filthy nor in error, nor is it a matter of law to try and utter them to others. It's simply a matter of condescending to others of lower degree in revelation. It's just not convenient in ministry to utter our revelations spoken only in heavenly places.

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The point is that I'm not going to learn yours, nor do I try to teach you mine. My history teacher taught me first, that speaking in our professorial jargon does no good to teach higher learning to others still unlearned.

Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

No, it is not we who make speech plain to all, but the Spirit. Which is by design since Babel. Therefore He said, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

But why "unlawful?" If you recall, I too gave you my own testimony of being caught up. Thus, I submit, that this design was to prolong the days until all the wheat and tares are in the field and in this way divided for the judgement of all.

 

[Behold]

All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Paul is explaining that because He is under Grace and not under the law, that he has liberty, but like this...

"Use not your liberty, for an occasion to the flesh...(enjoying a carnal deed"".... like watching Game of Thrones, or an R-Rated NetFlix movie, or getting drunk.....etc,

 

[robert derrick]

No, it is not we who make speech plain to all, but the Spirit. Which is by design since Babel. Therefore He said, "Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

The problem is thinking our own personal style of writing is revelatory mystery of Scripture. I can write as mysterious as I wish, but it doesn't make it true, just because no one else can figure out what in the world I'm trying to say. I.e. we shouldn't be making people take an extended course in Robert and Scott speech, before declaring them initiated into the mysteries of God.

But why "unlawful?" If you recall, I too gave you my own testimony of being caught up.

Oh really? Well, maybe the reason I missed that is because you didn't just say so plainly, like you are now.

Thus, I submit, that this design was to prolong the days until all the wheat and tares are in the field and in this way divided for the judgement of all.

If you are suggesting that the wheat and tares are discerned by understanding and agreeing with you, then we are different. We are all discerned by whether we our doctrine agrees with Scripture or not.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I.e. even us caught up ones are to be judged according to Scripture, not just what we speak of when caught up.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

I believe Aristophanes would think you are caught up a little much in the clouds.

There is no more revealed truth on earth today, that is not confirmed by Scripture, especially not to judge the wheat and tares by, if that is what you are saying.

I like your exhortation to live our lives, as disciples walking with the resurrected Christ on earth, and even as though we already have His resurrected immortal flesh and bones. So long as we don't actually think that has already happened.

We don't want to become like Simon the Magician in The Silver Chalice movie, who thought he really could fly with tricks and cables, and so dove from the tower face-first into the ground below.

 

[robert derrick]

Paul is explaining that because He is under Grace and not under the law, that he has liberty, but like this...

"Use not your liberty, for an occasion to the flesh...(enjoying a carnal deed"".... like watching Game of Thrones, or an R-Rated NetFlix movie, or getting drunk.....etc,

I agree, so long as the law we are not under is that of Moses, or any other law that justifies without faith. The only law we are justified in doing by faith, is the law of Christ for the NT.

 

[ScottA]

The problem is thinking our own personal style of writing is revelatory mystery of Scripture. I can write as mysterious as I wish, but it doesn't make it true, just because no one else can figure out what in the world I'm trying to say. I.e. we shouldn't be making people take an extended course in Robert and Scott speech, before declaring them initiated into the mysteries of God.

You misunderstand.

To the contrary, if we are at all a servant of God, it is not we who speak or write at all. But rather, we are "silent in church" and "it is the Holy Spirit who speaks." It is only then that a person's name is associated with what is true from God, and not before.

 

[ScottA]

The problem is thinking our own personal style of writing is revelatory mystery of Scripture. I can write as mysterious as I wish, but it doesn't make it true, just because no one else can figure out what in the world I'm trying to say. I.e. we shouldn't be making people take an extended course in Robert and Scott speech, before declaring them initiated into the mysteries of God.


Oh really? Well, maybe the reason I missed that is because you didn't just say so plainly, like you are now.


If you are suggesting that the wheat and tares are discerned by understanding and agreeing with you, then we are different. We are all discerned by whether we our doctrine agrees with Scripture or not.

These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I.e. even us caught up ones are to be judged according to Scripture, not just what we speak of when caught up.

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

I believe Aristophanes would think you are caught up a little much in the clouds.

There is no more revealed truth on earth today, that is not confirmed by Scripture, especially not to judge the wheat and tares by, if that is what you are saying.

I like your exhortation to live our lives, as disciples walking with the resurrected Christ on earth, and even as though we already have His resurrected immortal flesh and bones. So long as we don't actually think that has already happened.

We don't want to become like Simon the Magician in The Silver Chalice movie, who thought he really could fly with tricks and cables, and so dove from the tower face-first into the ground below.

We need only be born and live--this is our witness and our confession, whether wheat or tare.

As for the scriptures, they are like the Sabbath: Man is not for the scriptures, nor are they the test of God, for even they are confused by God; but the scriptures are for man that he might not be without what he otherwise does not possess.

 

[The Learner]

good discussiona all

 

[Gilligan]

Denying all that was in Christ before the foundation of the world, is to deny all that has been revealed of Him.

And it is not my teaching...but "the revelation of Jesus Christ", by God. Explained.

If it's not by revelation of the Bible, then it's not from God. The Bible does not teach any soul being in Christ before the foundation of the world. The first living soul to be in Christ is Adam, after his body is breathed into by the Spirit. Psalms 139 shows souls are created by Christ at the moment we are placed in our mother's womb.

 

[ScottA]

If it's not by revelation of the Bible, then it's not from God. The Bible does not teach any soul being in Christ before the foundation of the world. The first living soul to be in Christ is Adam, after his body is breathed into by the Spirit. Psalms 139 shows souls are created by Christ at the moment we are placed in our mother's womb.

You are not connecting the dots.

The scriptures do say:

Hebrews 13:8​

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.​

​

1 Corinthians 1:30​

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption—​

 

[Gilligan]

Exactly.....free will means that God knows exactly what will happen IF a person chooses to disobey him.

Now this is a great point. Commandments are prophecies of what will happen, if not obeyed. They are not prophecies of who will not obey, and certainly not prophecies that will men to disobey. Good job.

Yes, imagining that we have no choices makes this life meaningless.

It's the very despair of ancient pagan fatalism, that God abhors as an accusation against Himself, that He first loved us by creating us in His own image.

Those in the animal kingdom are ‘programmed’ by instinct for the life that God intended for them....to eat, drink and procreate their species indefinitely in a cycle of life.....but we alone are made in God’s image....

Exactly. Predetermined fatalism is a natural theology that men are no more free than the animals, that do not make choices, but only obey the natural commandment of God to be fruitful and multiply.

“Life or death” is all God ever put before his people.....he never said they had a choice between “heaven and hell”.

Interesting. You're correct. I don't ready anything about choosing between heaven and hell, but rather choosing life in Christ destined for heaven, or life of the devil destined for hell.

That is not a biblical concept, but borrowed from pagan ideas about immortality of the soul....something Jews were never taught from their scripture, but adopted in later centuries from the Greeks.

Lost me here. The Greeks philosophized about immortality of the soul, but the Bible confirms it. First our natural bodies are made, then we are made living souls by the Spirit of life breathed into our bodies.

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (2 Cor 5)

Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me. (2 Peter 1)

And when the judgment comes, it will hit many very hard because the choices they made were not just about “believing” (James 2:19) but about what they did with their beliefs, and where they actually came from.

True faith without works is dead. Just believing we are saved doesn't make it so. Our works show our faith, not our faith shows our salvation without works.

The “weeds” of counterfeit “Christianity” that Jesus spoke about were not sown recently....we have in the history of the nation of Israel, what happens when we deviate from what the scriptures teach and justify them by pretending that they are biblical, when they are anything but.

True. Men make their own traditions out of the Bible, and then hold their traditions higher than the Bible. That's why they accused Jesus of transgressing the 'traditions', as so though they were law of God.

What did Jesus say about the religious leaders of his day? (Matt 15:7-9; Matt 23:33)
Those who lead will have double accountability for what they teach.

Exactly. Even if we aren't doing such things as adultery, but our teaching leads to it, then we are just as condemned as those doing it. The context of ministry is where Paul speaks of defiling the body of Christ with our corrupt teachings and traditions that lead the sheep astray.

Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. (Rev 2)

It does not say this false teacher was actually doing the things that her teachings lead to. There are OSAS teachers living perfectly good and godly lives for themselves, but that ungodly teaching has led many to destruction, that actually do it. All OSAS says, is exactly what you are talking about: no manner of life matters, but so long as we believe we are saved, then we must be saved. Salvation by our faith alone is a curseed gospel that directly goes against the warnings of believing it.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? (James 2)

No way. I like your stand for righteous godly living.

 

[Gilligan]

And yet, God tells us our natural minds, the consciousness natural to humans, cannot understand the things of God because they are foolishness to them. Only Holy Spirits intercession changes that .

The fundamental unbelief of man, is that he's not created in God's image, and takes for granted the fact that man has intelligence from God alone. That's why pseudo sciences try to find the same intelligence in animals.

 

[Gilligan]

You will keep going around in circles on that subject until you begin to understand that those whom Jesus 'chose', The Father already owned them...

No I won't. I've made my challenge to your predertermist reading of John 15. Since you avoid it and just repeat your own version of predeterminism, then I'm not interested.

 

[Gilligan]

Nah, there are many others:

But you don't have a response to the main one, that I have seen predeterminists use most.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44

And here proves predeterminism is false. All men are drawn of the Spirit to repent and believe the gospel:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (John 12)

And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent. (Acts 17)

Your doctrine is false, and is an accusation against the God that is love, and first loved us all by creating us all in His image, not just some.

It seems that after a life's journey of discovery through hundreds of twists, turns and free will choices ... we finally found Him all by our little selves! <<<

Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. (Matthew 7)

I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me. (Prov 1)

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart. (Jerem 29)

Predeterminism mocks them that seek the Lord, even in their blindness, because they want to find Him with a whole heart.

LOL
We can do nothing good without Him. He found us ... we were lost. He called us after He orchestrated events and people that came into our lives that led us to that moment, The Divine Appointment. His sheep hears His voice at that chosen time - not before.
It is a mysterious process.

It's a mysterious process made of a false doctrine. Finding the Lord is nothing mysterious at all: He died for all men, draws all men, and those who seek Him with the heart shall find Him.

Simple.

It's how I found the Lord, and the same way for all who do. All are created to do so, but not all do. Calvin's predeterminism was a man's foolish effort to answer why some don't, that has no answer, because God doesn't even understand it.

Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 18)

Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezek 8:35)

A prederminist makes a hypocritical fool of God, who supposedly creates some men for the good and honor and some for the evil and dishonor, and then asks Himself and others, why they do the evil.

It's just the nature of being created with free will to believe and obey God or not.