Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[Robert Gwin]

So if God predestined, we would not have free will.. this makes no sense..

it depends how God predestined. or what he predestined..

He has prophesied, predestined if you choose, that He is going to send His forces to remove the wicked from the earth E. He has also stated that He formed the earth to be inhabited. That too is coming about. So what have you observed that could be considered predestined?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

He has prophesied, predestined if you choose, that He is going to send His forces to remove the wicked from the earth E. He has also stated that He formed the earth to be inhabited. That too is coming about. So what have you observed that could be considered predestined?

He said that whoever sees and believes will be given eternal life. And that this is the fathers will.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

So is it not predestined that all who believe will have eternal life. and as Jesus said in John 3, all who do not believe do not have life? whoever does not believe has the wrath of God abiding in them?

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

He predestined "if you will" that if israel did not o9bey him, but went contrary to him, he would destroy their cities and scatter them over the earth? did this not come true 3 times in the OT (Assyria, Babylon and Rome)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Yes it says he predestines. I just reject the fatalistic view of predestines. I believe he predestines us to be conformed to his image so please do not tell me I reject scripture..

I am not implying that we are robots. That is the argument you guys always use as if we are all totally programmed. That would imply no real intellegence or will or emotions, just a machine computing what it was programmed to compute.
But take this into consideration, animals are programmed by God, they call it instincts. They are uniquely designed and function exactly how God designed them to: they mate, get food, builds homes, function symbiotically in the vast ecosystem that was also programmed. A bird can fly freely here and there, land on what branch he wants, make a nest where he wants -- but those instincts drive him and are essential for life.
Sin distorted nature somewhat and so we have defects in that system: animals became fearful of man and eachother. Preditor and prey weren't part of that Garden of Eden design. Selfishness, greed, aggressive anger and hate replaced much of what was harmonious. Still that was necessary and part of the plan. The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL already existed before sin. We need to know evil to know and appreciate what good is. We need both to ubderstand and appreciate God.
He designed life and so in our design there happens to be some programs as well.
Can you get this: >>Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH.<<
SO He writes our life story with these signicant key moments scattered among many trivial ones. He allows for us to wander aimlessly, hopelessly, sinning and making all our little puney insignificant choices. But His program is installed and operates unbeknowst to us. He guides us all along through life to influence and make the right decisons. His plan is secure and absolute. Angels watch over us and protect us from anything or anyone _ even oursleves _ that would thwart His perfect plan. So yes, you get to fumble around until you are ready, land on any branch you desire and make a nest in your choice of tree. Then He draws you. At this point, because of your many failed decisions and lessons, your defenses and rebelliousness have been broken down, enabling you to open your door when He knock. You finally surrender your way, you finally realize your way doesn't work - only because He has brought you to this realization. You say, " I opened the door ... it was my choice", but God prepared you and enabled you to do so. He chose you first and sanctified you.
The significant events HE AUTHORS. We still are responsible. As you say, if we were totally programmed, sin could not exist, we would therefore not be guilty.

But we are unable to jumpstart/ ignite the process of sanctification. God chose us, we are the ELECT to be saved through Christ, by grace, through faith.
Faith is a gift, not by works and so what you are implying is that by your free will, you acquire this gift without God.
Think of this: Man left to himself will lead to nothing good and destruction! Look at man before the Flood. Where did his "free will" lead him? Tens of millions were totally wicked - all the time. But God chose 8 to repopulate the world. He found favor in them. But He gave Noah and his family FAITH.

This whole path that leads to your salvation is strategically planned. God prepares us and sometimes it takes a lifetime of lessons to be learned, through many experiences to reach that divine appointment. We are born sinners, bent towards rebelling against God, with a spiritual defect that we can't repair. This defect blinds us to see and so choosing God is something that we are unable to do by ourselves.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I am not implying that we are robots. That is the argument you guys always use as if we are all totally programmed. That would imply no real intellegence or will or emotions, just a machine computing what it was programmed to compute.
But take this into consideration, animals are programmed by God, they call it instincts. They are uniquely designed and function exactly how God designed them to: they mate, get food, builds homes, function symbiotically in the vast ecosystem that was also programmed. A bird can fly freely here and there, land on what branch he wants, make a nest where he wants -- but those instincts drive him and are essential for life.
Sin distorted nature somewhat and so we have defects in that system: animals became fearful of man and eachother. Preditor and prey weren't part of that Garden of Eden design. Selfishness, greed, aggressive anger and hate replaced much of what was harmonious. Still that was necessary and part of the plan. The KNOWLEDGE of GOOD AND EVIL already existed before sin. We need to know evil to know and appreciate what good is. We need both to ubderstand and appreciate God.
He designed life and so in our design there happens to be some programs as well.
Can you get this: >>Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH.<<
SO He writes our life story with these signicant key moments scattered among many trivial ones. He allows for us to wander aimlessly, hopelessly, sinning and making all our little puney insignificant choices. But His program is installed and operates unbeknowst to us. He guides us all along through life to influence and make the right decisons. His plan is secure and absolute. Angels watch over us and protect us from anything or anyone _ even oursleves _ that would thwart His perfect plan. So yes, you get to fumble around until you are ready, land on any branch you desire and make a nest in your choice of tree. Then He draws you. At this point, because of your many failed decisions and lessons, your defenses and rebelliousness have been broken down, enabling you to open your door when He knock. You finally surrender your way, you finally realize your way doesn't work - only because He has brought you to this realization. You say, " I opened the door ... it was my choice", but God prepared you and enabled you to do so. He chose you first and sanctified you.
The significant events HE AUTHORS. We still are responsible. As you say, if we were totally programmed, sin could not exist, we would therefore not be guilty.

But we are unable to jumpstart/ ignite the process of sanctification. God chose us, we are the ELECT to be saved through Christ, by grace, through faith.
Faith is a gift, not by works and so what you are implying is that by your free will, you acquire this gift without God.
Think of this: Man left to himself will lead to nothing good and destruction! Look at man before the Flood. Where did his "free will" lead him? Tens of millions were totally wicked - all the time. But God chose 8 to repopulate the world. He found favor in them. But He gave Noah and his family FAITH.

This whole path that leads to your salvation is strategically planned. God prepares us and sometimes it takes a lifetime of lessons to be learned, through many experiences to reach that divine appointment. We are born sinners, bent towards rebelling against God, with a spiritual defect that we can't repair. This defect blinds us to see and so choosing God is something that we are unable to do by ourselves.

this issue is when are we born again

the fatalist says we are born again (in sin) so we are able to see and understand the truth, and then have faith so we can be justified (have our sins washed)

the non fatalist says God draws us to himself. through and with the help of the HS. That this drawing and teachings helps us to understand the GOSPEL, and brings us to the point we must chose to believe, and be given eternal life. or chose to reject and remain under the wrath of God because we did not believe.

 

[ButterflyJones]

@EternallyGrateful, how is Ronald saying you don't understand mocking you when you earlier agreed you don't understand?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

@EternallyGrateful, how is Ronald saying you don't understand mocking you when you earlier agreed you don't understand?

He said I will not understand it THE way he does. That asppears to be mocking, saying I do not understand the word like he does.

I do not understand HIS belief..and have seen no reason to change that opinion, and that is what I meant I will not understand )it makes no sense in other words)

 

[ButterflyJones]

He said I will not understand it THE way he does. That asppears to be mocking, saying I do not understand the word like he does.

I do not understand HIS belief..and have seen no reason to change that opinion, and that is what I meant I will not understand )it makes no sense in other words)

Thank you.

Maybe consider that as ours is a personal relationship with God. And as such we each have a personal understanding of the Father's message and intent for us.

 

[The Learner]

The Calvinist heresy that is this theological dung pile known as "predestined elect" is not just demonic, but its the worst sort of heresy. As on one hand its a lie, but on the other this heresy and the people who are deceived by it, accuse God of sending people to hell, by never allowing them to believe, in Jesus.
So, reader, imagine a devil birthed theology that teaches that God sent Christ down here so that God can then refuse some of you the choice to believe and be born again.
That is not just bible denying cultism, but if you just think about it, you realize how STUPID is this Calvinism junk.
So, all that is just the worst demonic type of teaching, as it accuses God, falsely, denies the Cross, and has deceived millions and millions of people.

I hold to the eternalist point of view, not calivinism.

 

[The Learner]

The Calvinist heresy that is this theological dung pile known as "predestined elect" is not just demonic, but its the worst sort of heresy. As on one hand its a lie, but on the other this heresy and the people who are deceived by it, accuse God of sending people to hell, by never allowing them to believe, in Jesus.
So, reader, imagine a devil birthed theology that teaches that God sent Christ down here so that God can then refuse some of you the choice to believe and be born again.
That is not just bible denying cultism, but if you just think about it, you realize how STUPID is this Calvinism junk.
So, all that is just the worst demonic type of teaching, as it accuses God, falsely, denies the Cross, and has deceived millions and millions of people.

What is your viewpoint? Keep it simple please.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Universal Salvation is not in scripture. God predestination his Elect is.

Romans 8
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Acts 13
And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were app

 

[ButterflyJones]

I hold to the eternalist point of view, not calivinism.

As scripture rightly states.
Along with Election

I think much is missed in scripture if ,when, a reader is predisposed to presumptions of Calvinism .

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

this issue is when are we born again

the fatalist says we are born again (in sin) so we are able to see and understand the truth, and then have faith so we can be justified (have our sins washed)

the non fatalist says God draws us to himself. through and with the help of the HS. That this drawing and teachings helps us to understand the GOSPEL, and brings us to the point we must chose to believe, and be given eternal life. or chose to reject and remain under the wrath of God because we did not believe.

That is your perception of the matter, not mine.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

That is your perception of the matter, not mine.

So what is your perception of the matter?

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So what is your perception of the matter?

I shared many scriptures and pages of detailed interpretations on the topic and after all that, you tried to sum up what you label "a fatalist" perceives how God saves us and you are wrong. I don't ever refer to myself as a fatalist because not everything is set in stone as I pointed out very clearly. Our salvation was written in the Book of Life before we were born along with every future prophetic event -- that's predestination.
As I said before, you wouldn't understand, so no need to continue -- enough said -- we're done here.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I shared many scriptures and pages of detailed interpretations on the topic and after all that, you tried to sum up what you label "a fatalist" perceives how God saves us and you are wrong. I don't ever refer to myself as a fatalist because not everything is set in stone as I pointed out very clearly. Our salvation was written in the Book of Life before we were born along with every future prophetic event -- that's predestination.
As I said before, you wouldn't understand, so no need to continue -- enough said -- we're done here.

Yeah we are done

I stand by my word. You are a fatalist. the Jew could quote the OT verbatim, They crucified Christ with all of that knowledge. Just because someone posts a bunch of scripture (myself included) does not mean they have an understanding of what said scripture says.

One thing to remember, A persons name can be blotted from the book of life.. So if all of our names were written before time began, and it can be blotted out. then either God got it wrong. or our understanding of what predestination means is in error'


I believe in predestination. I just do not believe the way you do.

one more time

I stated the following

the fatalist says we are born again (in sin) so we are able to see and understand the truth, and then have faith so we can be justified (have our sins washed)


the non fatalist says God draws us to himself. through and with the help of the HS. That this drawing and teachings helps us to understand the GOSPEL, and brings us to the point we must chose to believe, and be given eternal life. or chose to reject and remain under the wrath of God because we did not believe.

Can you show me where I am wrong in my assessment?

 

[Robert Gwin]

He said that whoever sees and believes will be given eternal life. And that this is the fathers will.

John 6:39
This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

So is it not predestined that all who believe will have eternal life. and as Jesus said in John 3, all who do not believe do not have life? whoever does not believe has the wrath of God abiding in them?

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

He predestined "if you will" that if israel did not o9bey him, but went contrary to him, he would destroy their cities and scatter them over the earth? did this not come true 3 times in the OT (Assyria, Babylon and Rome)

He predestined "if you will" that if israel did not o9bey him, but went contrary to him, he would destroy their cities and scatter them over the earth? did this not come true 3 times in the OT (Assyria, Babylon and Rome)

He warned E, He prophesied to them that it was their choice, If Jehovah would have predestined them they would have had no choice. It is possible you do not know what predestined means. Here is the definition: an outcome or course of events) determined in advance by divine will or fate

 

[robert derrick]

Thanks. It just came to me while thinking about it. That's where God says He will reveal wisdom and truth to us by meditating on His word. It just hit me, that Jesus was dispelling the pagan frame of mind on personal gods and patron saints.

He can't be saying we have no choice in serving Him, because He tells us to make that choice once for all, and quit being double-hearted about it.

No-choice-faith is as dead as having faith alone by choice.

 

[robert derrick]

No, I did not say "created", but "conceived", as it is written, "I will send my beloved son."

Oh, I see. I wouldn't call call the prophecy of the Word become flesh, Him being conceived before the foundation of the world. God isn't conceived, but the Word was conceived in the womb of Mary.

But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

I was wondering why Jesus is called that holy thing, until I realized that thing born of Mary is His body of flesh, not Himself.

 

[robert derrick]

You are not following well. No, although brief, I gave the same indications as God did...which is that Adam was first in the garden in the presence of God, but "eastward", meaning toward evil...(just as the promised land was allotted "from the east side to the west")--then out of the garden altogether. Which does not speak of the earth, but of the presence of God and the world apart from Him.

If you are saying the earth was not created a land of natural bliss, then I agree. Adam and Eve were both driven from the paradise garden of God planted on the earth, with no more uncondemned fellowship with Him. However, His presence was still among men on earth and enjoyed by Abel, but Cain willingly went out from His presence in unrepentance.

And Enoch walked in His presence and fellowship, as fully as Adam ever did before he sinned. He may have been doing so in the garden, since the flaming sword only kept the way into it guarded from the disobedient. It will be the same with the gates of New Jerusalem.

And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

 

[robert derrick]

You say like Adam but not, but individual. But I have said "all in Adam", just as it is written.

I agree that all those transgressing as Adam, can be said to be in Adam and even called sinful Adam. If we see like Adam our old man, then we are condemned like Adam in his transgression. But, no other man than Adam was in Adam in the beginning. And the only men to be born of Adam were the babes in Eve's womb, Cain, Abel, Seth...