Christian Predeterminism Exposed

[Ronald David Bruno]

The main verse of the Bible they use most is John 5:16

Nah, there are many others:
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Romans 9:21

“The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied." 1 Peter 1, 2

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.”
“In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:3-4

“Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:11-12

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

“Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” 2 Timothy 1:9

“So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.” Colossians 3:12-13

“Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness.” Titus 1:1

“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.” 2 Thessalonians 2:13

“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7:7

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44

God's whole plan was predestined. All details need to work together. Romans 8:28 could not mean anything if this were not true. All historical events have fallen exactly in place precisely at the time He ordained them to happen. Nothing can thwart His plan, otherwise He would have to continually reconfigure every moment in time - which would not look like a reliable plan at all.
The Book of Life had all who were chosen/ elect written in it before the foundation of the world.
God is in control, He factors all our sins and blunders into His perfect plan. This is what SOVEREIGNTY MEANS.
Everyone starts life spiritually blind. We cannot remove this blindness, only He can. Therefore His drawing power enables us to see, He lifts the veil of blindness so that we can see spiritually and ourbworld view changes, we begin to see and understand life differently. We are not capable of doing this without His assistance. He enlightens us through His WORD and we are presuaded to go His way. We believe and choose to follow Christ.
>>In our pride and ignorance of God's influence, it seems like we did it by our rational intellect and intuitive sense. It seems that after a life's journey of discovery through hundreds of twists, turns and free will choices ... we finally found Him all by our little selves! <<< LOL
We can do nothing good without Him. He found us ... we were lost. He called us after He orchestrated events and people that came into our lives that led us to that moment, The Divine Appointment. His sheep hears His voice at that chosen time - not before.
It is a mysterious process. We think all our thoughts aside from outside sources are self generated - they aren't.
We think God's thoughts and He guides us this way. At certain moments, God speaks to us: "You ought to go this way!"; or "Do not do this!"; or "Help this person!" We may ask ourselves, "Was it me who came up with these ideas?" Likely not all the good ones - we've had help.The significant moves in your life are guided by Him. It is when we receive His guidance to do something, and we stop and try to analyze it and go a different way, is when we screw up. Then we realize we should have gone with that first intuitive thought ( which was God's voice). Once we are saved, we get much better at making the right choices and distinquishing from His voice and our own understanding.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Nah, there are many others:
Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5

"Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?" Romans 9:21

“The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied." 1 Peter 1, 2

“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him.”
“In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” Ephesians 1:3-4

“Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:11-12

“For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:29-30

“Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity” 2 Timothy 1:9

“So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience; bearing with one another, and forgiving each other, whoever has a complaint against anyone; just as the Lord forgave you, so also should you.” Colossians 3:12-13

“Paul, a bondservant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness.” Titus 1:1

“But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.” 2 Thessalonians 2:13

“For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.” Deuteronomy 7:7

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.” John 6:44

God's whole plan was predestined. All details need to work together. Romans 8:28 could not mran anything if this were not true. All historical events have fallen exactly in place precisely at the time He ordained them to happen. Nothing can thwart His plan, otherwise He would have to continually reconfogure every moment in time - which would not look like a reliable plan at all.
The Book of Life had all who were chosen/ elect written in it before the foundation of the world.
God is in control, He factors all our sins and blunders into His perfect plan. This is what SOVEREIGNTY MEANS.
Everyone starts life spiritually blind. We cannot remove this blindness, only He can. Therefore His drawing power enables us to see, His lifts the veil of blindness so that we can see spiritually and ourbworld view changes, we begin to see and understand life differently. We are not capable of doing this without His assistance. He enlightens us through His WORD and we are presuaded to go His way. We believe and choose to follow Christ.
>>In our pride and ignorance of God's influence, it seems like we did it by our rational intellect and intuitive sense. It seems that after a life's journey of discovery through hundreds of twists, turns and free will choices ... we finally found Him all by our little selves! <<< LOL
We can do nothing good without him. He found us ... we were lost. He called us after He orchestrated events and peoplebthat came into our lives tuat ledbus to that moment, tye Divine Appointment. His sheep hears His voice at that chosen time - not before.
It is a mysterious process. We think all our thoughts aside from outside sources are self generated - they aren't.
We think God's thoughts and He guides us this way. At certain moments, God speaks to us: "You ought to go this way!"; or "Do not do this!"; or "Help this person!" We may ask ourselves, "Was it me who came up with these ideas?" Likely not all the good ones - we've had help.The significant moves in your life are guided by Him. It is when we receive His guidance to do something, and we stop and try to analyze it and go a different way, is when we screw up. Then we realize we should have gone with that first intuitive thought ( which was God's voice). Once we are saved, we get much better at making the right choices and distinquishing from His voice and our own understanding.

Really, I think it's the projection of the natural mind that inserts our will as co-redemptors with Christ.

I did it. I chose Jesus. I saved myself by accepting God's plan of salvation. I can lose it too, if I choose. Nothing is eternal, not even the soul.

There's a church for that doctrine of course. The worldly one.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Really, I think it's the projection of the natural mind that inserts our will as co-redemptors with Christ.

That's a brilliant thought ... Did God give that to you or did you figure that out yourself?

 

[ButterflyJones]

That's a brilliant thought ... Did God give that to you or did you figure that out yourself?

I'll leave you to decide.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'll leave you to decide.

We must give the Holy Spirit all the credit, but I must say you have learned wisdom and are quite receptive to His teachings!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It basically boils down to common sense sir, if God predestined His followers, we simply would not have free will, and by God not predestining one of His children, would make Him an unfit father put simply. Basically it would nullify 2 Pet 3:9 and make our Christian assignment null and void.

So if God predestined, we would not have free will.. this makes no sense..

it depends how God predestined. or what he predestined..

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I'll leave you to decide.

Nice to you meet you too. You are new I see. Welcome to the "Everything is Debatable with Christians Going Off in All Directions FORUM".
Is that a photo of you holding the sloth?
Interesting creatures, evem the Bible comments about them - cute though.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

So if God predestined, we would not have free will.. this makes no sense..

it depends how God predestined. or what he predestined..

The significant events and detailsbwothin are predestined.
If man really had free will, then he could freely do anything he wanted. But his actions have consequences. "The wages of sin is death", so we are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan. Does that sound free?
If it was truly free, then at death, there would be no judgment, our spirits could freely leave our bodies and float off into wherever realm we wanted, visit heaven, the other side of the universe or stick around and haunt some of our foes for awhile. There would be no restrictions, no rules, freedom.
The whole concept of God's Law sets up His creatures for a life mixed with obedience and disobedience. You cannot escape it. We are to gain the knowledge of Good and Evil so that we can appreciate and know God. God created evil, which can be translated as disasters, troubles, calamities.
The whole concept of God's Sovereignty simply means He is in control. All prophecy could not be fulfilled with hair splitting accuracy unless trillions of "our choices and actions" were predestined, pre- determined. Againd, I am only implying that the significant choices that lead somewhere are the ones I'm talking about; not whether you wear jeans or a suit or eat a burger or spagetti -- the significant moves that are part of His overall plan that lead to everyone's salvation and judgment are ordained - they have to be, otherwise prophecy could not pan out. The Bible says about Jerimiah, "before you were born, I knew you". His life was mapped out, He could not have gone another way and so did exactly what God ordained him to do.
Judas was born to do his deed as well and several prophecies prove this. The significant events are planned.
God has every move that Putin is making or will male in check. There are no surprises with God and they arenkeading usbinto the Great Tribulation! We cannot screw up His plan because we made the wrong choices; as if He would then have to rearrange His plan every single moment in history. All our blunders and sin is factored into His plan.
Actually, most of the time we are not making signicant moves; but what we think is not significant could be to someone else. An encouraging word, a good deed, advice given could change that person's direction. That is when the Holy Spirit is moving and working through us.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The significant events and detailsbwothin are predestined.
If man really had free will, then he could freely do anything he wanted. But his actions have consequences. "The wages of sin is death", so we are either slaves to God or slaves to Satan. Does that sound free?
If it was truly free, then at death, there would be no judgment, our spirits could freely leave our bodies and float off into wherever realm we wanted, visit heaven, the other side of the universe or stick around and haunt some of our foes for awhile. There would be no restrictions, no rules, freedom.
The whole concept of God's Law sets up His creatures for a life mixed with obedience and disobedience. You cannot escape it. We are to gain the knowledge of Good and Evil so that we can appreciate and know God. God created evil, which can be translated as disasters, troubles, calamities.
The whole concept of God's Sovereignty simply means He is in control. All prophecy could not be fulfilled with hair splitting accuracy unless trillions of "our choices and actions" were predestined, pre- determined. Againd, I am only implying that the significant choices that lead somewhere are the ones I'm talking about; not whether you wear jeans or a suit or eat a burger or spagetti -- the significant moves that are part of His overall plan that lead to everyone's salvation and judgment are ordained - they have to be, otherwise prophecy could not pan out. The Bible says about Jerimiah, "before you were born, I knew you". His life was mapped out, He could not have gone another way and so did exactly what God ordained him to do.
Judas was born to do his deed as well and several prophecies prove this. The significant events are planned.
God has every move that Putin is making or will male in check. There are no surprises with God and they arenkeading usbinto the Great Tribulation! We cannot screw up His plan because we made the wrong choices; as if He would then have to rearrange His plan every single moment in history. All our blunders and sin is factored into His plan.
Actually, most of the time we are not making signicant moves; but what we think is not significant could be to someone else. An encouraging word, a good deed, advice given could change that person's direction. That is when the Holy Spirit is moving and working through us.

Man was given free will

Man chose of his free will to chose to reject God in the garden,

He had free will. and his free will decision had consequences (death)

to remove free will is to make men robots. God has strings on every person, and treats them as puppets having them do whatever it is he wants..

Thats not God and he is offended people think it is him, whether they admit that is what they are saying or not

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Man was given free will

Man chose of his free will to chose to reject God in the garden,

He had free will. and his free will decision had consequences (death)

to remove free will is to make men robots. God has strings on every person, and treats them as puppets having them do whatever it is he wants..

Thats not God and he is offended people think it is him, whether they admit that is what they are saying or not

We have volition/ will, but we aren't free to do what we want. Our actions have consequences.
Romans 13:1 says God appoints all rulers/authorities. So how does that work with free will?
Before Judas was born, God knew
exactly what he was going to do -- betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
God hardened Pharoah's heart to allow for all 10 plagues to be released against Egypt until after the last one. And then only for a short time did He abandon his (stubborn rebelliousness) until the Israelites were positioned in the predetermined place _ the Red Sea _ at the right time _ so that God could once again pull the strings of this puppet and his army, and march them into the Red Sea. Where was Pharoah's free will in that story? And actually God allowed them to be slaves for over 400 years. How much free will did they have?
There is a Hidden Hand that we don't see behind the scenes that dictates what will happen. That veil that blinded you had a strings attached to it too and God pulled them and lifted the veil so you could see.
God has so much more power and influence over His creation than I think you give Him credit for. It is His grace we are saved by, His blood sacrifice and His drawing power. Everything is a gift - nothing is free. Our salvation was purchased. Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH. HE WROTE THE BOOK ON YOU.
What you are claiming is that YOU are the AUTHOR, YOUR WROTE YOUR STORY, DESIGNED YOUR PATH TO GOD.
Humble yourself, you can do nothing without Him - except of course the insignificant things in life that don't really matter much.

 

[ButterflyJones]

Nice to you meet you too. You are new I see. Welcome to the "Everything is Debatable with Christians Going Off in All Directions FORUM".
Is that a photo of you holding the sloth?
Interesting creatures, evem the Bible comments about them - cute though.

No, that's not me. I wanted a picture for my profile and I thought the sloth baby was the cutest.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

We have volition/ will, but we aren't free to do what we want. Our actions have consequences.
Romans 13:1 says God appoints all rulers/authorities. So how does that work will free will?
Before Judas was born, God knew
exactly what he was going to do -- betray Jesus for 30 pieces of silver.
God hardened Pharoah's heart to allow for all 10 plagues to be released against Egypt until after the last one. And then only for a short time did He abandon his (stubborn rebelliousness) until the Israelites were positioned in the predetermined place _ the Red Sea _ at the right time _ so that God could once again pull the strings of this puppet and his army, and march them into the Red Sea. Where was Pharoah free will in that story. And actually God allowed the to be slaves for over 400 years. Hoe much free will did they have?
There is a Hidden Hanf that we don't see behind the scenes that dictates what will happen. That veil that blinded you had a strings attached to it too and God pulled them and lifted the veil so you could see.
God has so much more power and influence over His creation than I think you give Him credit for. It is His grace we are saved by, His blood sacrifice and His drawing power. Everything is a gift - nothing is free. Our salvation was purchased. Jesus is the AUTHOR OF OUR FAITH. HE WROTE THE BOOK ON YOU.
What you are claiming is that YOU are the AUTHOR, YOUR WROTE YOUR STORY, DESIGNED YOUR PATH TO GOD.
Humble yourself, you can do nothing without Him - except of course the insignificant things in life that don't really matter much.

if we were not free to do what we want, there would not be any consequences (or should not be) The fact that there are consequences, via choices show true free will

The law.. obey it and you are blessed. Disobay and your cursed

the garden, Do not eat of the tree and you will live, eat of the tree you will die.

free will choices are all through scripture

 

[Aunty Jane]

So if God predestined, we would not have free will.. this makes no sense..

it depends how God predestined. or what he predestined..

This is an important point.....what did God predetermine?....and what was it that he planned in advance to bring his original purpose to fruition, once the human race had been hijacked by the devil?

We have to go back to the beginning and ask why God put us humans on this earth in the first place. We alone out of all in the animal kingdom, were made ‘in God’s image and likeness’.

The Bible tells us that the material creation came after the creation of intelligent beings in the spirit realm.
These, whom the Bible calls angels, were applauding the material creation as God was bringing it into existence. (Job 38:4-7) These beings are intensely interested in what is transpiring down here (1 Peter 1:10-12) since one of their own rebelled and took the newly created humans into his web of deceit. This has never been just about us humans....angels are involved as well. And rebel spirit creatures are powerful, so they can do way more damage to God’s purpose than humans ever could....as we saw in the pre-flood era.
God had to intervene and create a ‘reset’ to get his predetermined timeline back on track.

God told us what his purpose was in creating humans.....to have “dominion” over all of creation....it’s ecology, it’s many life forms and their habitats, and in preserving and maintaining the order that is so evident in God’s creation. We were to be it’s caretakers and zookeepers....and God gave the human race something he did not give to any other creation......the opportunity for everlasting life....with no aging, sickness or death to spoil what was supposed to be an idyllic existence.

When Adam took the fruit from his wife’s hand, he chose to reject his Creator’s Sovereignty and to choose autonomy.....to “be like God” in directing his own life.....but behind the scenes, the devil was handed rulership of the human race, (Luke 4:5-8) to take them to where God (in his Omnicience) knew that he would.

This is where the predestination comes in.....knowing where the devil would lead mankind, God allowed satan to test them all out in the same way that he had tempted Eve. If God supplied his instructions and stated penalties for violating his laws, would humans behave like Eve, and find the devil’s offer so tempting as to disobey?.....and who in turn, would tempt others to follow their lead? Would misplaced loyalty separate people from their Creator? Would tempting and convenient lies appeal to us rather than an inconvenient truth?

Was free will a gift or a curse? This object lesson that we are all a part of, would show God where our loyalty is grounded. By the exercise of our free will, we show God whether we will be good and obedient citizens of his kingdom......or not. Can we be told by God what to do to remain in his good books....or do we want to be the one telling others to follow what we think is right?

The Creator predetermined the solution to man’s defection, but not the individuals who would make up the body who would lead us back to paradise......which is the place that God intended to be our permanent home. God would choose these ones only after they had proven faithful in this life....even “unto death”.

Jesus would be sent to cancel Adam’s debt, but only the kingdom, made up of the resurrected Christ and his elect, would bring faithful members of the entire human race back to where we should have been all along.

God’s purpose in connection with his earth will go ahead, with us or without us (Isaiah 55:11)....only by our faithful obedience in all things will we even have a shot at being there to enjoy eternity in the earthly paradise.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

if we were not free to do what we want, there would not be any consequences (or should not be) The fact that there are consequences, via choices show true free will

The law.. obey it and you are blessed. Disobay and your cursed

the garden, Do not eat of the tree and you will live, eat of the tree you will die.

free will choices are all through scripture

Being a slave to God or a slave to Satan and sin doesn't sound like you are free.
How can God's sovereignty allow and be in sync with 8 billion people who act freely and work it all into a perfect plan?
It is God who causes all things to work together for good ...
The Bible says He predestined us in several scriptures. I guess you reject those scriptures or distort them?
Anyways, no need to continue, I doubt you will understand it as I do.

 

[MatthewG]

Christians predeterminism, as I understand it from those that teach it, is a kind of no-choice-about-it faith and salvation. God has already decided who will believe Him unto salvation, and who will not.

If it were a simple matter of foreknowing who would and would not, then that is just the omniscience of God. However, I have found that the teaching of predeterminism includes God creating men and women differently. It suggests that God is a respecter of persons. He actually creates and makes some in His image with power to believe and willingness to obey Him, while others are not, or are created of a lesser image of God. It's like God picking and choosing the winners of life's lottery, when He creates us. Those who are determined by God to believe and obey, shall do so, because He creates them that way, and those who are not determined to do so, shall not, because He purposely creates them another lesser way.

I find this most offensive, and an accusation against the God that is love and would have all men to be saved by faith in His Son.

The main verse of the Bible they use most is John 5:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

They use this to say we have no individual choice in the matter of believing and being saved, but each person is fated one way or the other. It's the Christian version of pagan divine fatalism, that Jesus Christ came to destroy.

In the verse, Jesus is not saying we have not chosen to believe He is the Christ, but rather we have not chosen Him to be the Christ of God. We must understand old paganism to understand what He was dispelling among His disciples. Pagans believed they could choose from among many gods, the one they most wanted to please and receive blessing and protection from. They could make one god of many into their 'patron god'. Whole cities would do so, such as Ephesus of Diana and Egyptian Thebes of Amun. Catholics have a version of it with patron saints.

What Jesus is telling us, is to not thinks as the pagans think, and suppose we are choosing who is the true Christ and Lord for ourselves, from among many gods, christs and lords. We do not choose Him to ourselves as the best candidate for God's Christ. We are not favoring Him with our own form of election, of who is the best of the gods for us.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

The Jews were trying to do the same thing, by trying to choose Jesus for themselves to be their very own personal king. Jesus would have none of it. Jesus is telling us that we do not choose Him from among other christs and gods to be our King and Lord, but that we are either to believe He is the one and only Christ of God, or not. And so, he chooses them that do believe from the heart, that He is indeed the only true Christ and Lord and Savior for men.

And so, it's not that we have no choice nor say in the matter. God neither creates us different from others to become saved believers, nor does Jesus choose us 'randomly' out of crowd to be His special people. The truth is that there is only one true choice to make: we either choose to believe He is the true Christ of God sent for our redemption by faith, or we choose not to.

We have not chosen and 'elected' Him to be Christ, but we choose to believe He is indeed Christ. And so, He chooses to elect us to be His people by His faith recieved and kept in our hearts.

Keeping His faith is always a matter of choice, because all that hear His word do receive the faith instantly into the heart, but not all keep His faith in the heart. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

All choose to have Jesus' faith sown in their hearts by hearing the word alone, but all hearers do not choose to do the word and keep His faith unto salvation and everlasting life. All choose to be hearers of the world, by hearing it, but only the few choose to be doers of the word by keeping it in their hearts.

If Christian predeterminism were true, and God does in fact make some people with power of will to believe and obey Him, and some He makes a lesser version of His image without such power, and then Jesus chooses us accordingly at some point in our lives, then the exhortation to keep and continue in the faith is a redundant waste of time. It would be like telling birds to keep flying in the air, and not stop and drop to the ground, or coaxing cars to continue burning fuel from a full gas tank.

Christian predeterminism makes no practical sense and is an abhorrent teaching, that God purposely and wilfully makes some men to do good, and others to do evil. That is what James calls a false accusation against God. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

Hello this was a good read thank you.

The only thing to say here is that while I agree with what you are saying; I also have a view which pertains to the first bride of Christ of that century in which Jesus had foretold that would come to a close and some men would not taste death, until they seen the kingdom had come, some even seeming the Son of Man come in the clouds. Just as he had left going up into the clouds. And that those 144,000 very hold and devout people were part of the resurrection along side with those whom were in Sheol at the time in which, all were judged and everyone was sentenced. Meaning that those who held on to God and had faith went on to be with Him, and be in his kingdom, being sons or daughters of God, in faith in the Gospel of Christ. Those who were in Sheol were also given resurrection spiritual bodies and placed where they were suppose to go, and that Satan, the false prophet, the beast and Hades, death, and sin where all done away with and all things have been placed beneath the feet of Jesus today.

Now all are welcome because of Jesus and his life, death, burial, and resurrection is there for all people in life to either hear about, study, or read. And may be able to have new life through Christ by the spirit if you allow God to work in you, good fruits will come forth while sometimes God also prunes you back as he is helping you by and through the spirit and working on your mind and heart .

 

[The Learner]

Christians predeterminism, as I understand it from those that teach it, is a kind of no-choice-about-it faith and salvation. God has already decided who will believe Him unto salvation, and who will not.

If it were a simple matter of foreknowing who would and would not, then that is just the omniscience of God. However, I have found that the teaching of predeterminism includes God creating men and women differently. It suggests that God is a respecter of persons. He actually creates and makes some in His image with power to believe and willingness to obey Him, while others are not, or are created of a lesser image of God. It's like God picking and choosing the winners of life's lottery, when He creates us. Those who are determined by God to believe and obey, shall do so, because He creates them that way, and those who are not determined to do so, shall not, because He purposely creates them another lesser way.

I find this most offensive, and an accusation against the God that is love and would have all men to be saved by faith in His Son.

The main verse of the Bible they use most is John 5:16, Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

They use this to say we have no individual choice in the matter of believing and being saved, but each person is fated one way or the other. It's the Christian version of pagan divine fatalism, that Jesus Christ came to destroy.

In the verse, Jesus is not saying we have not chosen to believe He is the Christ, but rather we have not chosen Him to be the Christ of God. We must understand old paganism to understand what He was dispelling among His disciples. Pagans believed they could choose from among many gods, the one they most wanted to please and receive blessing and protection from. They could make one god of many into their 'patron god'. Whole cities would do so, such as Ephesus of Diana and Egyptian Thebes of Amun. Catholics have a version of it with patron saints.

What Jesus is telling us, is to not thinks as the pagans think, and suppose we are choosing who is the true Christ and Lord for ourselves, from among many gods, christs and lords. We do not choose Him to ourselves as the best candidate for God's Christ. We are not favoring Him with our own form of election, of who is the best of the gods for us.

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone.

The Jews were trying to do the same thing, by trying to choose Jesus for themselves to be their very own personal king. Jesus would have none of it. Jesus is telling us that we do not choose Him from among other christs and gods to be our King and Lord, but that we are either to believe He is the one and only Christ of God, or not. And so, he chooses them that do believe from the heart, that He is indeed the only true Christ and Lord and Savior for men.

And so, it's not that we have no choice nor say in the matter. God neither creates us different from others to become saved believers, nor does Jesus choose us 'randomly' out of crowd to be His special people. The truth is that there is only one true choice to make: we either choose to believe He is the true Christ of God sent for our redemption by faith, or we choose not to.

We have not chosen and 'elected' Him to be Christ, but we choose to believe He is indeed Christ. And so, He chooses to elect us to be His people by His faith recieved and kept in our hearts.

Keeping His faith is always a matter of choice, because all that hear His word do receive the faith instantly into the heart, but not all keep His faith in the heart. And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

All choose to have Jesus' faith sown in their hearts by hearing the word alone, but all hearers do not choose to do the word and keep His faith unto salvation and everlasting life. All choose to be hearers of the world, by hearing it, but only the few choose to be doers of the word by keeping it in their hearts.

If Christian predeterminism were true, and God does in fact make some people with power of will to believe and obey Him, and some He makes a lesser version of His image without such power, and then Jesus chooses us accordingly at some point in our lives, then the exhortation to keep and continue in the faith is a redundant waste of time. It would be like telling birds to keep flying in the air, and not stop and drop to the ground, or coaxing cars to continue burning fuel from a full gas tank.

Christian predeterminism makes no practical sense and is an abhorrent teaching, that God purposely and wilfully makes some men to do good, and others to do evil. That is what James calls a false accusation against God. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

God knows who will accept him, and thus he chooses from the eternalist point of view. Thus predestination and free will are both true.

 

[360watt]

Choosing to believe Jesus is God, that He died and rose again ,that He lived sinless.. comes under convicting from the Holy Spirit. Without the convicting, there is no prompt for salvation. So this is where free will to receive eternal life isn't a work.

It's bought thru the Holy Spirit. He does the saving.. so it's not a work.

Romans 10:9-10

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Being a slave to God or a slave to Satan and sin doesn't sound like you are free.
How can God's sovereignty allow and be in sync with 8 billion people who act freely and work it all into a perfect plan?
It is God who causes all things to work together for good ...
The Bible says He predestined us in several scriptures. I guess you reject those scriptures or distort them?
Anyways, no need to continue, I doubt you will understand it as I do.

I do not hear any rebuttle of what I have shown.. one has to chose to be a slave of one or the other. How can Gods soverignty be in sync with 8 billion people who act freely? Because God is a soverign God but he is also a righteous and loving God, as for causing all things to work together for good. You left the most important part out. It is ony FOR THOSE WHO LOVE GOD.. one must chose to love God..

Yes it says he predestines. I just reject the fatalistic view of predestines. I believe he predestines us to be conformed to his image so please do not tell me I reject scripture..

And you’re right,, I will not understand it as you do.. like you will never understand it like I do. But please do not mock me by saying I do not understand..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Choosing to believe Jesus is God, that He died and rose again ,that He lived sinless.. comes under convicting from the Holy Spirit. Without the convicting, there is no prompt for salvation. So this is where free will to receive eternal life isn't a work.

It's bought thru the Holy Spirit. He does the saving.. so it's not a work.

Romans 10:9-10

Amen, The HS works in us, He does not make us born again while still in sin, and in effect force us to believe.. He works in us by drawing us to the father. We must chose whether we believe what he is showing us of the gospel. Or reject it..

he who BELIEVES is not condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already, because they have not believed.

here in one statement, jesus tells us who will be in heaven, and who will be cast out.

 

[Behold]

God knows who will accept him, and thus he chooses from the eternalist point of view. Thus predestination and free will are both true.

The Calvinist heresy that is this theological dung pile known as "predestined elect" is not just demonic, but its the worst sort of heresy. As on one hand its a lie, but on the other this heresy and the people who are deceived by it, accuse God of sending people to hell, by never allowing them to believe, in Jesus.
So, reader, imagine a devil birthed theology that teaches that God sent Christ down here so that God can then refuse some of you the choice to believe and be born again.
That is not just bible denying cultism, but if you just think about it, you realize how STUPID is this Calvinism junk.
So, all that is just the worst demonic type of teaching, as it accuses God, falsely, denies the Cross, and has deceived millions and millions of people.