You are jumping to the wrong conclusion. I am not anti-KJV. I just said that its translation of this verse was ambiguous because the Greek word ouranos can be translated as sky or heaven, and I think they chose the wrong interpretation in this case (as the translators of other Bible translations agree). Strong's says:So much for your anti-KJV rhetoric.
οὐρανός ouranos [oo-ran-os’;] perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity): — air, heaven([-ly]), sky.
The four winds mentioned are always on the earth. As it says in Revelation 7:1 (KJV):
(1) After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree.
Why didn't you chose the "most accurate" KJV translation? :And if you were to do a Bible study on what the "four winds" actually are, you'd find out they are in connection with God's Spirit, and NOT simple air that blows upon the earth like in the sky.
Ezek 37:9-10
9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.'”
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
ESV
(9) Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
It doesn't sound like God's spirit to me. Can the four angels in Revelation 7:1 hold God's spirit and prevent God's Spirit from doing what God wants it to? The four winds of "the sky" or "the heaven" or "the earth" doesn't sound like God's Spirit to me.
I can't find any Bible references to anyone sleeping in heaven, only sleeping in the dust of the earth. There are no dead people in heaven.Is just like I showed from Ezekiel 37 above, about God's Spirit, and that is what Christ was pointing to in Matthew 24:31 with the 'asleep' saints being gathered from one end of HEAVEN to the other.
I've been saying all along that the Matthew 24 passage is not about the rapture, but that it is a different event, whereas you wrote "the Matthew 24:31 verse is the direct parallel to the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 Scripture", which is part of the rapture event - the resurrection and rapture occur almost simultaneously, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):That Matthew 24:31 example is NOT about a rapture. Jesus brings those 'asleep' saints with Him like Paul said, remember?
(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.
It appears that you seem to think that the dead are in heaven, and are resurrected in heaven, whereas Paul wrote, verse 16 (KJV):
(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
The dead in Christ are on the earth, in their graves/tombs, which is why Jesus descends from heaven to resurrect them. As John wrote, John 5:25-28 (WEB):
(25) Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.
(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.
(27) He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.
(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,
There are no tombs in heaven!
Err, Matthew 24 talks about angels gathering the elect, 1 Thessalonians 4 talks about Jesus resurrecting dead Christians and then snatching away the alive Christians - no angels involved. They are different!No, the 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture is NOT different,
Paul is saying that at Jesus' second coming (at a time years later than the rapture/first resurrection) he will bring the resurrected saints with him. Jesus coming to resurrect the saints is not his returning with the saints. The Cambridge Bible Notes on 1 Thessalonians 4:14 say:because Paul was emphatic as I showed that Jesus will bring the "asleep" saints with Him FROM HEAVEN, not from the earth!
But the Apostle does not say here “will raise them with Jesus,” it is not the resurrection of the dead that is in question, but their relation to the Parousia, their place in Christ’s approaching kingdom. Therefore he says: “God will bring them with Him,”—they will not be forgotten or left behind when Jesus comes in triumph.
The argument of this verse is condensed and somewhat subtle. When the Apostle begins, “If we believe” etc., we expect him to continue, “so we believe that those who died will, by the power of Christ’s resurrection, be raised to life, and will return to share His glory.” But in the eagerness of his inference St Paul passes from the certainty of conviction in the first member of the sentence (“If we believe”) to the certainty of the fact itself (“God will bring them”) in the second. In the same eagerness of anticipation he blends the final with the intermediate stage of restoration, making the resurrection of Jesus the pledge not of the believer’s resurrection simply (as in 2Co_4:14), but of his participation in Christ’s glorious advent, of which His resurrection is the prelude (comp. ch. 1Th_1:10, “to wait for His Son from the heavens, Whom He raised from the dead,” and note). The union between Christ and the Christian, as St Paul conceives it, is such that in whatever Christ the Head does or experiences, He carries the members of His body with Him. The Christian dead are “the dead in Christ” (1Th_4:16); they will therefore be in due course the risen and the glorified in Christ (2Th_1:12); comp. 2Ti_2:11, “If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.” The point of the Apostle’s reasoning lies in the connection of the words “died and rose again.” Jesus has made a pathway through the grave, and by this passage His faithful, fallen asleep, still one with the dying, risen Jesus, will be conducted, to appear with Him at His return.
Which is not describing Jesus coming with his saints, and the elect are gathered from the earth, not heaven!That is EXACTLY what Jesus showed in the Matthew 24:31 verse, that group of saints being gathered from end of Heaven to the other.
The Mark passage is the equivalent event to the Matthew 24 passage. They are not referring to gathering two groups, just one group from all around the world. Barnes notes on Matthew 24:31 says:In the Mark 13:27 version, these, a second group still alive on earth, are gathered FROM THE EARTH, then to Heaven...
Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
From the four winds. That is, from the four quarters of the globe — east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them. See Eze 37:9. See also Isa 43:5,6.
From one end of heaven etc. Mark says, Mr 13:27 “from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.” The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered.
The word heaven is here used to denote the visible heavens or the sky, meaning that through the whole world he would gather them. See Ps 19:1-6 De 4:32.
Of course I know that. How on earth could you think that I didn't!Thus the 'asleep' saints are NOT raptured, because the Biblical idea of being raptured is ONLY for those still alive ON EARTH. How could you not know this?
Jesus was giving an answer to the question, "Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?” Paul was talking about Jesus returning for his bride, the Church, not Jesus' second coming/presence and the end of the age.Thusly, what Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse about the gathering of His saints is the SAME THINGS that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonian 4.
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