The Rapture vs. the Pre-tribulational Rapture

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keithr

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So much for your anti-KJV rhetoric.
You are jumping to the wrong conclusion. I am not anti-KJV. I just said that its translation of this verse was ambiguous because the Greek word ouranos can be translated as sky or heaven, and I think they chose the wrong interpretation in this case (as the translators of other Bible translations agree). Strong's says:

οὐρανός ouranos [oo-ran-os’;] perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity): — air, heaven([-ly]), sky.​

The four winds mentioned are always on the earth. As it says in Revelation 7:1 (KJV):

(1) After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree.​

And if you were to do a Bible study on what the "four winds" actually are, you'd find out they are in connection with God's Spirit, and NOT simple air that blows upon the earth like in the sky.

Ezek 37:9-10
9 Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, 'Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.'”
10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.
ESV
Why didn't you chose the "most accurate" KJV translation? :

(9) Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.​

It doesn't sound like God's spirit to me. Can the four angels in Revelation 7:1 hold God's spirit and prevent God's Spirit from doing what God wants it to? The four winds of "the sky" or "the heaven" or "the earth" doesn't sound like God's Spirit to me.

Is just like I showed from Ezekiel 37 above, about God's Spirit, and that is what Christ was pointing to in Matthew 24:31 with the 'asleep' saints being gathered from one end of HEAVEN to the other.
I can't find any Bible references to anyone sleeping in heaven, only sleeping in the dust of the earth. There are no dead people in heaven.

That Matthew 24:31 example is NOT about a rapture. Jesus brings those 'asleep' saints with Him like Paul said, remember?
I've been saying all along that the Matthew 24 passage is not about the rapture, but that it is a different event, whereas you wrote "the Matthew 24:31 verse is the direct parallel to the 1 Thessalonians 4:14-15 Scripture", which is part of the rapture event - the resurrection and rapture occur almost simultaneously, 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (WEB):

(51) Behold, I tell you a mystery. We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,​
(52) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed.​

It appears that you seem to think that the dead are in heaven, and are resurrected in heaven, whereas Paul wrote, verse 16 (KJV):

(16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

The dead in Christ are on the earth, in their graves/tombs, which is why Jesus descends from heaven to resurrect them. As John wrote, John 5:25-28 (WEB):

(25) Most certainly, I tell you, the hour comes, and now is, when the dead will hear the Son of God’s voice; and those who hear will live.​
(26) For as the Father has life in himself, even so he gave to the Son also to have life in himself.​
(27) He also gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man.​
(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,​

There are no tombs in heaven!

No, the 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture is NOT different,
Err, Matthew 24 talks about angels gathering the elect, 1 Thessalonians 4 talks about Jesus resurrecting dead Christians and then snatching away the alive Christians - no angels involved. They are different!

because Paul was emphatic as I showed that Jesus will bring the "asleep" saints with Him FROM HEAVEN, not from the earth!
Paul is saying that at Jesus' second coming (at a time years later than the rapture/first resurrection) he will bring the resurrected saints with him. Jesus coming to resurrect the saints is not his returning with the saints. The Cambridge Bible Notes on 1 Thessalonians 4:14 say:

But the Apostle does not say here “will raise them with Jesus,” it is not the resurrection of the dead that is in question, but their relation to the Parousia, their place in Christ’s approaching kingdom. Therefore he says: “God will bring them with Him,”—they will not be forgotten or left behind when Jesus comes in triumph.​
The argument of this verse is condensed and somewhat subtle. When the Apostle begins, “If we believe” etc., we expect him to continue, “so we believe that those who died will, by the power of Christ’s resurrection, be raised to life, and will return to share His glory.” But in the eagerness of his inference St Paul passes from the certainty of conviction in the first member of the sentence (“If we believe”) to the certainty of the fact itself (“God will bring them”) in the second. In the same eagerness of anticipation he blends the final with the intermediate stage of restoration, making the resurrection of Jesus the pledge not of the believer’s resurrection simply (as in 2Co_4:14), but of his participation in Christ’s glorious advent, of which His resurrection is the prelude (comp. ch. 1Th_1:10, “to wait for His Son from the heavens, Whom He raised from the dead,” and note). The union between Christ and the Christian, as St Paul conceives it, is such that in whatever Christ the Head does or experiences, He carries the members of His body with Him. The Christian dead are “the dead in Christ” (1Th_4:16); they will therefore be in due course the risen and the glorified in Christ (2Th_1:12); comp. 2Ti_2:11, “If we died with Him, we shall also live with Him.” The point of the Apostle’s reasoning lies in the connection of the words “died and rose again.” Jesus has made a pathway through the grave, and by this passage His faithful, fallen asleep, still one with the dying, risen Jesus, will be conducted, to appear with Him at His return.​

That is EXACTLY what Jesus showed in the Matthew 24:31 verse, that group of saints being gathered from end of Heaven to the other.
Which is not describing Jesus coming with his saints, and the elect are gathered from the earth, not heaven!

In the Mark 13:27 version, these, a second group still alive on earth, are gathered FROM THE EARTH, then to Heaven...

Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds,
from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
The Mark passage is the equivalent event to the Matthew 24 passage. They are not referring to gathering two groups, just one group from all around the world. Barnes notes on Matthew 24:31 says:

From the four winds. That is, from the four quarters of the globe — east, west, north, and south. The Jews expressed those quarters by the winds blowing from them. See Eze 37:9. See also Isa 43:5,6.​
From one end of heaven etc. Mark says, Mr 13:27 “from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.” The expression denotes that they shall be gathered from all parts of the earth where they are scattered.​
The word heaven is here used to denote the visible heavens or the sky, meaning that through the whole world he would gather them. See Ps 19:1-6 De 4:32.​

Thus the 'asleep' saints are NOT raptured, because the Biblical idea of being raptured is ONLY for those still alive ON EARTH. How could you not know this?
Of course I know that. How on earth could you think that I didn't!

Thusly, what Jesus taught in His Olivet discourse about the gathering of His saints is the SAME THINGS that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonian 4.
Jesus was giving an answer to the question, "Tell us, when will these things be? What is the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?” Paul was talking about Jesus returning for his bride, the Church, not Jesus' second coming/presence and the end of the age.
 
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Davy

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You are jumping to the wrong conclusion. I am not anti-KJV. I just said that its translation of this verse was ambiguous because the Greek word ouranos can be translated as sky or heaven, and I think they chose the wrong interpretation in this case (as the translators of other Bible translations agree). Strong's says:

οὐρανός ouranos [oo-ran-os’;] perhaps from the same as 3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specifically, the Gospel (Christianity): — air, heaven([-ly]), sky.​
Why are trying... to confuse the issue by that vain attempt to interpret the Matthew 24:31 verse just BASED on that sole word for 'heaven'?

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Have you seen literal angels flying in the 'sky' atmosphere around the earth? Is that what you are basing your interpretation on where those saints are gathered from?

You well KNOW that Jesus is pointing DIRECTLY to the gathering of His 'asleep' saints that are ALREADY IN HEAVEN that Paul said He will bring with Him per 1 Thess.4:14. So WHY all the vanity with trying to CONFUSE the issue based on that sole word for 'heaven' when God's Word uses the idea of 'heaven' to point to TWO different places, one for the sky around the earth, and the other for the heavenly dimension where God's Abode is behind a veil we cannot see.

The four winds mentioned are always on the earth. As it says in Revelation 7:1 (KJV):

(1) After this, I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth, or on the sea, or on any tree.​
NOT per the Ezekiel 37:9-10 Scripture WHICH YOU JUST BYPASSED. The 'breath' is about a lot more than just wind upon the earth! So you are being silly in your denial and that's all.

Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV


Will you say something ignorant also about that above Genesis 2:7 verse like it is simply about air blowing upon the earth?

Why didn't you chose the "most accurate" KJV translation? :

(9) Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.​

It doesn't sound like God's spirit to me. Can the four angels in Revelation 7:1 hold God's spirit and prevent God's Spirit from doing what God wants it to? The four winds of "the sky" or "the heaven" or "the earth" doesn't sound like God's Spirit to me.
Then that would mean you do NOT BELIEVE IN GOD'S BREATH OF LIFE that He created man with in order for man to become a living soul. How much more shall you continue with showing your denial of Bible Scripture?

I can't find any Bible references to anyone sleeping in heaven, only sleeping in the dust of the earth. There are no dead people in heaven.
Tell me truly, you are an orthodox Jew and not really a Christian are you?

Orthodox Jews aren't that familiar with The New Testament Scriptures. That has to be why you aren't familiar with Scripture like 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4 about Jesus preaching The Gospel to the "spirits in prison", those who had died back to Noah's flood.

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6
For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Now how can The Gospel be preached to the 'dead' if they are LITERALLY ASLEEP IN GRAVES OF THE GROUND like your Orthodox Jewish teachings believe? You clearly are not going to understand many New Testament doctrines because you show you don't know The New Testament. So I'm just wasting my time with you.
 

keithr

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Why are trying... to confuse the issue by that vain attempt to interpret the Matthew 24:31 verse just BASED on that sole word for 'heaven'?
I'm not trying to confuse you or anybody else. I'm just trying to help you understand what it means and to harmonise the Scriptures. From one end of the sky to the other simply means as far as you can see, effectively 'the whole world'. That's the same meaning as "gather from the four winds", i.e. gather from the whole world. The context of the passage is Jesus talking about events on the earth, and the gathering of the elect is also going to happen on the earth.

In the previous verse the KJV also translates the Greek word as heaven when it is fairly obvious that it should be sky (there are clouds in the sky, but there is no Bible reference of clouds in heaven; also people on the earth can't see into heaven):

KJV:
(30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.​
WEB:
(30) and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky. Then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.​

The KJV frequently uses the word heaven instead of sky (so it's the KJV translation which is confusing you, not me!), e.g. Psalm 147:

KJV:
(8) Who covereth the heaven with clouds, who prepareth rain for the earth, who maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.​
WEB:
(8) who covers the sky with clouds, who prepares rain for the earth, who makes grass grow on the mountains.​

The confusion stems from the fact that in Hebrew and Greek the same word is used for heaven and sky, but in English we have different words. For example, in Matthew 16:2 (KJV) Jesus says:

(2) ... When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.​

That would be confusing to us if it was translated as "the heaven is red", so in this case the KJV translators were forced to translate the Greek word ouranos as sky instead of heaven. Similarly, using logic and deduction it's easy to see that in Matthrew 24:31 it should also be translated as sky rather than heaven.

Matt 24:31
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Have you seen literal angels flying in the 'sky' atmosphere around the earth? Is that what you are basing your interpretation on where those saints are gathered from?
I, like you, have never seen angels flying anywhere. You surely know that is not what I'm basing my interpretation on! :rolleyes:

So WHY all the vanity with trying to CONFUSE the issue based on that sole word for 'heaven' when God's Word uses the idea of 'heaven' to point to TWO different places, one for the sky around the earth, and the other for the heavenly dimension where God's Abode is behind a veil we cannot see.
It's nothing to do with vanity. I'm not trying to confuse; I'm explaining it in order to remove the confusion! I mentioned the Albert Barnes' Notes in my previous post, which were published from 1847 - 1885, so realising that Matthew 24:31 is referring to people being gathered on the earth is nothing new. It is you that are confusing yourself, and leading your understanding astray, by stubbornly insisting that the word must be translated as heaven and must mean heaven rather than the sky.

NOT per the Ezekiel 37:9-10 Scripture WHICH YOU JUST BYPASSED. The 'breath' is about a lot more than just wind upon the earth! So you are being silly in your denial and that's all.
I didn't bypass Ezekiel 37:9-10. Digressing onto whether the Hebrew word for wind should be translated as wind, breath or spirit is not helpful to understanding Matthew 24:31. In that passage God tells Ezekiel to prophesy to the wind and say to the wind 'Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Come from the four winds [ruach], wind [ruach], and breathe [inflate, blow, breathe] on these slain, that they may live”'. It is about wind on the earth, and you are silly to think that it is referring to heaven. He was (in vision) on the earth prophesying to dry bones and seeing God restoring them to living humans. It is a prohecy of the resurrection of the nation of Israel. As it continues:

(11) Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost. We are completely cut off.’​
(12) Therefore prophesy, and tell them, ‘Thus says the Lord Yahweh: “Behold, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, my people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel.​
(13) You will know that I am Yahweh, when I have opened your graves, and caused you to come up out of your graves, my people.​
(14) I will put my Spirit [ruach] in you, and you will live. Then I will place you in your own land; and you will know that I, Yahweh, have spoken it and performed it,” says Yahweh.’”​

Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and
breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
KJV


Will you say something ignorant also about that above Genesis 2:7 verse like it is simply about air blowing upon the earth?
It's irrelevant to Matthew 24:31. But yes, God had created Adam's body and then he brought him to life, or animated him, by causing Adam's body to start breathing, so that Adam then became a living being, or a living soul (nephesh - a breathing creature). So it's not about air blowing on the earth, it's about God blowing air into Adam's lungs.

Tell me truly, you are an orthodox Jew and not really a Christian are you?
No, I'm not a Jew!

Orthodox Jews aren't that familiar with The New Testament Scriptures. That has to be why you aren't familiar with Scripture like
More incorrect assumptions!

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6
For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

Now how can The Gospel be preached to the 'dead' if they are LITERALLY ASLEEP IN GRAVES OF THE GROUND like your Orthodox Jewish teachings believe? You clearly are not going to understand many New Testament doctrines because you show you don't know The New Testament. So I'm just wasting my time with you.
Matthew 8:22 (WEB):
(22) But Jesus said to him, “Follow me, and leave the dead to bury their own dead.”​

How can the dead bury people? Clearly Jesus was referring to the non-believers as dead, even though they were clearly alive. As Paul wrote, Ephesians 2 (WEB):

(1) You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins,​
(4) But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,​
(5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),​

again referring to alive people as though they were dead. The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), so all sinners (all people) are reckoned as dead. We are only reckoned as having eternal life if we have faith in Jesus.

So Peter could have been likewise referring to the Gospel being preached to non-believers (the dead). However, I think he was being more literal than that. In the previous verses he wrote:

(2) that you no longer should live the rest of your time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.​
(3) For we have spent enough of our past time doing the desire of the Gentiles, and having walked in lewdness, lusts, drunken binges, orgies, carousings, and abominable idolatries.​
(4) They think it is strange that you don’t run with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming:​

So Peter was saying in verse 6 that the Gospel was preached to Christians who are now dead, so that although they were judged by men while they were alive, nevertheless God will give them eternal life. As Barnes' Notes puts it:
[See next post.]
 
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keithr

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1 Peter 4:6 (WEB):
(6) For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.​

So Peter was saying in verse 6 that the Gospel was preached to Christians who are now dead, so that although they were judged by men while they were alive, nevertheless God will give them eternal life. As Barnes' Notes puts it:

Was the gospel preached also to them that are dead - It seems to me that the most natural and obvious interpretation is to refer it to those who were then dead, to whom the gospel had been preached when living, and who had become true Christians. This is the interpretation proposed by Wetstein, Rosenmuller, Bloomfield, and others. In support of this it may be said:​
(1) That this is the natural and obvious meaning of the word dead, which should be understood literally, unless there is some good reason in the connection for departing from the common meaning of the word.​
(2) The apostle had just used the word in that sense in the previous verse.​
(3) This will suit the connection, and accord with the design of the apostle. He was addressing those who were suffering persecution. It was natural, in such a connection, to refer to those who had died in the faith, and to show, for their encouragement, that though they had been put to death, yet they still lived to God. He therefore says, that the design in publishing the gospel to them was, that though they might be judged by people in the usual manner, and put to death, yet that in respect to their higher and nobler nature, the spirit, they might live unto God. It was not uncommon nor unnatural for the apostles, in writing to those who were suffering persecution, to refer to those who had been removed by death, and to make their condition and example an argument for fidelity and perseverance. Compare 1Th_4:13; Rev_14:13.​
That they might be judged according to men in the flesh - That is, so far as people are concerned, (κατὰ ἀνθρώπους kata anthrōpous,) or in respect to the treatment which they received from people in the flesh, they were judged and condemned; in respect to God, and the treatment which they received from him, (κατὰ Θεὸν kata Theon,) they would live in spirit. People judged them severely, and put them to death for their religion; God gave them life, and saved them. By the one they were condemned in the flesh - so far as pain, and sorrow, and death could be inflicted on the body; by the other they were made to live in spirit - to be his, to live with him. The word “judged” here, I suppose, therefore, to refer to a sentence passed on them for their religion, consigning them to death for it. There is a particle in the original - μὲν men, “indeed” - which has not been retained in the common translation, but which is quite important to the sense: “that they might indeed be judged in the flesh, but live,” etc. The direct object or design of preaching the gospel to them was not that they might be condemned and put to death by man, but this was indeed or in fact one of the results in the way to a higher object.​
But live according to God - In respect to God, or so far as he was concerned. By him they would not be condemned. By him they would be made to live - to have the true life. The gospel was preached to them in order that so far as God was concerned, so far as their relation to him was concerned, so far as he would deal with them, they might live. The word live here seems to refer to the whole life that was the consequence of their being brought under the power of the gospel:​
(a) That they might have spiritual life imparted to them;​
(b) That they might live a life of holiness in this world;​
(c) That they might live hereafter in the world to come.​
In one respect, and so far as people were concerned, their embracing the gospel was followed by death; in another respect, and so far as God was concerned, it was followed by life. The value and permanence of the latter, as contrasted with the former, seems to have been the thought in the mind of the apostle in encouraging those to whom he wrote to exercise patience in their trials, and to show fidelity in the service of their master.​
In the spirit - In their souls, as contrasted with their body. In respect to that - to the flesh - they were put to death; in respect to their souls - their higher natures - they were made truly to live. The argument, then, in this verse is, that in the trials which we endure on account of religion, we should remember the example of those who have suffered for it, and should remember why the gospel was preached to them. It was in a subordinate sense, indeed, that they might glorify God by a martyr’s death; but in a higher sense, that in this world and the next they might truly live. The flesh might suffer in consequence of their embracing the gospel that was preached to them, but the soul would live. Animated by their example, we should be willing to suffer in the flesh, if we may for ever live with God.​
 
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Davy

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I'm not trying to confuse you or anybody else. I'm just trying to help you understand what it means and to harmonise the Scriptures. From one end of the sky to the other simply means as far as you can see, effectively 'the whole world'. That's the same meaning as "gather from the four winds", i.e. gather from the whole world. The context of the passage is Jesus talking about events on the earth, and the gathering of the elect is also going to happen on the earth.
I'm pretty sure I already covered that Matthew 24:27 context being about LIGHTNING shining across the sky. It's a simple metaphor, and you seem to want to try and turn it into some scientific experiment association.

The "four winds" context:

In Ezekiel 37:9
, God uses the idea of 'breath' (Hebrew ruwach) to bring alive the slain there. So even though ruwach is at times translated as 'wind', in MOST Old Testament examples it is translated as 'spirit'. And since the object of that Ezekiel 37:9 verse with "wind" and "breath" is about bringing back to life those slain, that is NOT simply about the literal winds that blow upon the earth. Likewise with

Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 the idea of the "four winds" there is about the "last trump" 'change' to our "spiritual body" that Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 on the day of Christ's future return.

Revelation 7:1 -- with this context about the "four winds", it's about the four angels holding the four winds back until God's servants on earth are 'sealed' with His seal. In that case, the "four winds" blowing represents the events on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns ending this present world by God's consuming fire of 2 Peter 3:10.

John 3 -- Jesus used the idea of 'wind' as a metaphor for The Spirit, and our spirit inside our flesh.

Therefore, anyone who thinks the idea of 'wind' as used in God's Word is always about the sky around the earth, or simple air, shows they don't know the difference between this earthly dimension which the sky heaven belongs to, and the Heavenly dimension which our spirit and the breath from God belongs to.

I've notice the orthodox Jews especially have a problem understanding this, because most of them don't understand about the Heavenly dimension of Spirit, just as Nicodemus in John 3 also failed to understand then.
 

Davy

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1 Peter 4:6 (WEB):
(6) For to this end the Good News was preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed as men in the flesh, but live as to God in the spirit.​

So Peter was saying in verse 6 that the Gospel was preached to Christians who are now dead, so that although they were judged by men while they were alive, nevertheless God will give them eternal life. As Barnes' Notes puts it:
No... that is NOT what Peter was pointing to in 1 Peter 3 and 1 Peter 4.

When Peter said this...

1 Peter 4:5-6
5 Who shall give account to Him That is ready to judge the quick and the dead.

6
For, for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
KJV

He was pointing back to this, what he said in 1 Peter 3...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV


Verse 20 above TELLS US JUST WHICH 'DEAD' Jesus preached The Gospel to! Christ Jesus had NOT DIED ON THE CROSS YET back in Noah's day when those dead had died!!! So how could this be about 'Christians' that The Gospel was preached to BEFORE THEY DIED? That idea is ludicrous!

As one can easily see then, there are fake Bible scholars in circulation too whom God did not call!
 

keithr

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He was pointing back to this, what he said in 1 Peter 3...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV


Verse 20 above TELLS US JUST WHICH 'DEAD' Jesus preached The Gospel to! Christ Jesus had NOT DIED ON THE CROSS YET back in Noah's day when those dead had died!!! So how could this be about 'Christians' that The Gospel was preached to BEFORE THEY DIED? That idea is ludicrous!
Verse 20 is not referring to dead people, and it doesn't say he preached the Gospel, just that he preached to them. Verse 19 says it's referring to "spirits in prison". People are humans, not spirits. Dead humans have no thoughts and cannot be preached to. Angels are spirits. This is who Peter was referring to, 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​
 

Davy

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Verse 20 is not referring to dead people, and it doesn't say he preached the Gospel, just that he preached to them. Verse 19 says it's referring to "spirits in prison". People are humans, not spirits. Dead humans have no thoughts and cannot be preached to. Angels are spirits. This is who Peter was referring to, 2 Peter 2:4 (WEB):

(4) For if God didn’t spare angels when they sinned, but cast them down to Tartarus, and committed them to pits of darkness to be reserved for judgment;​
Your lies you make are just stupid, that's all there is to it. Of course Peter was talking about those who had DIED back at the time of Noah! Peter even told you that Jesus preached to those "spirits in prison" AFTER He died on the cross! How ignorant can one get? For those NOT to mean the dead back to Noah, it would HAVE TO MEAN THOSE MEN ARE STILL ALIVE IN THE FLESH TODAY, ALL THE WAY BACK FROM THE TIMES OF NOAH! And that is a ludicrous idea!

Therefore, YOU REVEAL YOU ARE NOT HERE ON THIS FORUM TO FOLLOW GOD'S TRUTH, BUT INSTEAD DO NOT BELONG.
 

keithr

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Your lies you make are just stupid, that's all there is to it. Of course Peter was talking about those who had DIED back at the time of Noah! Peter even told you that Jesus preached to those "spirits in prison" AFTER He died on the cross! How ignorant can one get? For those NOT to mean the dead back to Noah, it would HAVE TO MEAN THOSE MEN ARE STILL ALIVE IN THE FLESH TODAY, ALL THE WAY BACK FROM THE TIMES OF NOAH! And that is a ludicrous idea!

Therefore, YOU REVEAL YOU ARE NOT HERE ON THIS FORUM TO FOLLOW GOD'S TRUTH, BUT INSTEAD DO NOT BELONG.
Hey, just because you can't understand what I've pointed out, or because you choose not to believe it, that's no reason to accuse me of lying, being stupid, and not seeking the truth of God's word. Just because I don't agree with what you've written doesn't mean that I "do not belong" on this forum. Personal attacks on believers in Christ is perhaps a sign that you do not belong in the body of Christ ("We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death", 1 John 3:14 MKJV).

I believe that Peter was talking about the fallen angels, just as Jude was in Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

This is referring back to days of Noah, in Genesis 6:1-4 (WEB):
(1) When men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them,​
(2) God’s sons saw that men’s daughters were beautiful, and they took any that they wanted for themselves as wives.​
(3) Yahweh said, “My Spirit will not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; so his days will be one hundred twenty years.”​
(4) The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when God’s sons came in to men’s daughters and had children with them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.​

If you don't agree, then so be it. I've shared what I believe to be the correct interpretation, for the purpose of helping you and others to understand the truth also. If you don't agree then please provide intelligent reasonings based on the Scriptures, rather than resorting to personal attacks.
 

Davy

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Hey, just because you can't understand what I've pointed out, or because you choose not to believe it, that's no reason to accuse me of lying, being stupid, and not seeking the truth of God's word. Just because I don't agree with what you've written doesn't mean that I "do not belong" on this forum. Personal attacks on believers in Christ is perhaps a sign that you do not belong in the body of Christ ("We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brothers. He who does not love his brother abides in death", 1 John 3:14 MKJV).

I believe that Peter was talking about the fallen angels, just as Jude was in Jude 1:6 (WEB):

(6) Angels who didn’t keep their first domain, but deserted their own dwelling place, he has kept in everlasting bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day.​

This is referring back to days of Noah, in Genesis 6:1-4 (WEB):
(1) When men began to multiply on the surface of the ground, and daughters were born to them,​
(2) God’s sons saw that men’s daughters were beautiful, and they took any that they wanted for themselves as wives.​
(3) Yahweh said, “My Spirit will not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; so his days will be one hundred twenty years.”​
(4) The Nephilim were in the earth in those days, and also after that, when God’s sons came in to men’s daughters and had children with them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.​

If you don't agree, then so be it. I've shared what I believe to be the correct interpretation, for the purpose of helping you and others to understand the truth also. If you don't agree then please provide intelligent reasonings based on the Scriptures, rather than resorting to personal attacks.
Showing how weak your arguments are is like having a debate with a one-armed man.
 

Davy

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Smarten up brethren...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV


The following is OT prophecy that Lord Jesus would do that above preaching The Gospel to those "spirits in prison", meaning in the HEAVENLY PRISON OF SATAN.

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes,
to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV

That is what Apostle Peter was pointing to in the 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6 Scripture. Jesus preached The Gospel to the DEAD held in Satan's prison house in darkness, and led out those spirits that believed on Him. This is why Peter said those "spirits in prison" had The Gospel preached to them, so that they would be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. It means they had already died back to the time of Noah, and had to wait until Christ's 1st coming, death and resurrection, and His preaching The Gospel to them, in order to be freed from Satan's prison in the heavenly dimension.

Those who really hate these Scriptures are those Biblically illiterate that believe the old Jew's tradition that we literally sleep in the casket with our dead flesh body. No, Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed that our spirit (+soul) leaves our flesh body at death, and our flesh goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, and our spirit and soul go back to God Who gave it. We continue to have awareness of self after we die, and we go either to one side or the other in Paradise.

I've even heard those deceived about this on men's false 'sleep in the ground' theory that those "spirits in prison" were actually demons that Jesus preached His victory to, like an 'in your face' kind of thing. How stupid is that??
 

keithr

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Showing how weak your arguments are is like having a debate with a one-armed man.
How does a man having only one arm make it easier for someone to debate with him? :rolleyes: Smarten up!

Smarten up brethren...

1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God,
being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
KJV


The following is OT prophecy that Lord Jesus would do that above preaching The Gospel to those "spirits in prison", meaning in the HEAVENLY PRISON OF SATAN.
"Heavenly prison of Satan?" Satan does not imprison anybody, and he definitely doesn't imprison any humans in heaven. He has no power over dead humans. Where do you find support for such an idea? Remember Proverbs 30:6 (WEB):

(6) Don’t you add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.​

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (WEB):
(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.​
Psalms 146:4 (MKJV):
(4) His breath goes forth; he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.​

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes,
to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
KJV

That is what Apostle Peter was pointing to in the 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Peter 4:5-6 Scripture. Jesus preached The Gospel to the DEAD held in Satan's prison house in darkness, and led out those spirits that believed on Him. This is why Peter said those "spirits in prison" had The Gospel preached to them, so that they would be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. It means they had already died back to the time of Noah, and had to wait until Christ's 1st coming, death and resurrection, and His preaching The Gospel to them, in order to be freed from Satan's prison in the heavenly dimension.
God is here speaking about Jesus, but He does not say that Jesus will "preach to spirits in prison", He says he will bring the prisoners out from the prison. He also says nothing about the prisoners being dead people who were disobedient and died in the years leading up to the flood in Noah's day. Peter says "the spirits in prison, because they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared" (ESV). He is referring to spirits - not humans - who didn't obey God during the days that Noah built the ark. That cannot be logically interpreted to mean all humans (not spirits) that have ever lived and died up to the time of Jesus' resurrection. And there is no mention of the prison being created and run by Satan!

Besisde, when Jesus read that passage from Isaiah, he said, Luke 4:18-21 (WEB):

(18) “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the broken hearted, to proclaim release to the captives, recovering of sight to the blind, to deliver those who are crushed,​
(19) and to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”​
(20) He closed the book, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. The eyes of all in the synagogue were fastened on him.​
(21) He began to tell them, “Today, this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”​

Jesus said that he fulfilled that prophecy that day, not that he would fulfill it later when God will resurrect him to life after he had been killed.

EDIT:
Perhaps I didn't read that carefully enough. :oops: What Jesus was saying had been fulfilled was that the 'the sprit of YHVH was upon him, because he had anointed Jesus to preach the Gospel, etc.'. The time when he would preach the Gospel, proclaim release to prisoners, etc., was his present and future work.

Those who really hate these Scriptures are those Biblically illiterate that believe the old Jew's tradition that we literally sleep in the casket with our dead flesh body. No, Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 showed that our spirit (+soul) leaves our flesh body at death, and our flesh goes back to the earthly elements where it came from, and our spirit and soul go back to God Who gave it.
The Hebrew word is ruach, which means "wind, breath, mind, spirit". As the GNB translates it, "Our bodies will return to the dust of the earth, and the breath of life will go back to God, who gave it to us". Remember that "Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul" (Gen 2:7), and during the flood "All on the dry land, in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, died" (Gen 7:22). If you think that the "breath of life" returning to God means that people continue living when they die, and return to God, then why would you think that having returned to God they find themselves in Satan's prison?

We continue to have awareness of self after we die, and we go either to one side or the other in Paradise.
Not according to Ecclesiastes 9:5 and Psalms 146:4, which I quoted above.
 
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forever

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In case some of my Christian brethren are not aware...

There is a major difference between the idea of a 'rapture' verses the idea of a 'pre-tribulational rapture'. I even had to explain this to my sister per Scripture again, because she had been listening to Pre-trib Rapture theory programming on TV.

1. the word 'rapture' is not written in The Bible firstly. The Greek word for "caught up" in the KJV of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 is the word harpazo (NT:726). It means to seize. From this Greek word harpazo into Latin is where the word 'rapture' comes from.

2. There will be a harpazo event for Christ's Church on the day of His future return ("caught up" in the KJV Bible per 1 Thessalonians 4:17). Some call this simply, 'the rapture', but I choose to use the KJV "caught up" most of the time, so as to not confuse...

3. The teaching of a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL rapture is what is false. What makes it false is the 'timing' suggested. The Bible teaches Jesus comes in the future only one time to gather His Church on the last day of this present world. But the Pre-trib Rapture Theory of man instead wrongly teaches that Jesus comes PRIOR TO THE TRIBULATION to gather His Church, and then all those Left-behind go through the "great tribulation". This is NOT what God's Word teaches at all.

4. The false Pre-trib Rapture theory doctors like to drop that single word 'rapture' on the unsuspecting about their 'idea' of Jesus coming prior to the tribulation. And this abuse of that word 'rapture' has gone on so long that when many simply hear... that word rapture, they automatically think that means the Church being gathered PRIOR to the great tribulation, which simply is NOT true per God's written Word.

So if you want to use that Latin derived word 'rapture' (which is not actually in The Bible), then WHICH TIMING do you mean? A post-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church (which is written)? or a pre-tribulational coming by Christ to gather His Church (which is NOT written)?
... you but dump your assertion here because you never understood what God's plan is about.

In all prophets God addresses "the sons of Ishral"
[or: 'the house Ishral and the house Judah']
as the group of (potential-) sons which will become 'the 144,000' in the times of the end -- now .

This group , these two houses , aka "the 2 Witnesses" ,
will be rescued by Him before the tribulation starts ,
in prophets called "that great day of IEUE" .

In all prophets He tells ,
that "my servant the Anointed" [=Christ] will come for that group ,
bring them to mt tsiun [=God's mountain in the other reality] ,
where they will be restored in their original gorgeous body (!) ,
then they will restore the desolate eden-paradise [-in the other reality] ,
then war Mystery-Babylon : the evil realm east of this earth ,
then sent back to this now dark earth to WITNESS to Jacob ,
that is : all the millions that will be left behind

and will physically die during the tribulation

until their souls will be saved and they will dwell in eden
 

Davy

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... you but dump your assertion here because you never understood what God's plan is about.
Of course you are making a FALSE statement there, because the Bible Scripture for when Jesus comes to gather His Church is easy.

All one need to do is simply read what Jesus said in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, about His coming AFTER THE TRIBULATION to gather His saints. And that is the SAME idea Apostle Paul also taught in 2 Thessalonians 2 with Jesus' coming to destroy the "man of sin" that must come first. Even the 1 Thessalonians 4 Scripture is a repeat of what Jesus taught in Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

And then it's a very simply matter also to look up that Greek word harpazo in 1 Thess.4, 2 Cor.12, and Rev.12:5 that is translated to "caught up" in the KJV Bible. That word harpazo ("caught up") does NOT mean a 'pre-tribulational rapture'.