How about addressing the evidence? You are a master at ducking the evidence. Preterists have to do that.I believe he did come, in faith without any evidence or proof other than believing Jesus the apostles and John the beloved.
“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, and hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.”
Revelation 1:1-7 KJV
Revelation 1:1-7 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: who bare rec | King James Version (KJV) | Dow
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: who bare recbible.com
A FEW QUICK COMMENTS ON FULFILLMENT ESCHATOLOGY
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How about addressing the evidence? You are a master at ducking the evidence. Preterists have to do that.
John writes; an address meant from the Alpha and the omega, says the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming. Then goes on to explain why.
John has be alive for some time and he is preaching and teaching in the isle that is called Patmos, he opens up to the seven assemblies addressing he is their brother and fellow-partner in the tribulation they were going through, in reign and and endurance. John was okay at this point his life it seems.
John was in Patmos, because of the word of God and because of Jesus. And he was in the Spirit on the Lords day (the day of the death of Christ? Sabbath?) he was in the spirit and this happened.
He goes on to write again saying he heard a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Saying I am the alpha and the omega, the first and the last.
What is shown, John is told to write in a scroll, or a letter now today.
Here are seven destinationsand send to the seven assemblies that [are] in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.’”
Revelation 1:8-11 YLT98
Revelation 1:8-11 ‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming — the Almighty.’ I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, an | Young's Literal Translation 1
‘I am the Alpha and the Omega, beginning and end, saith the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is coming — the Almighty.’ I, John, who also [am] your brother, and fellow-partner in the tribulation, anbible.com
seven assemblies that [are] in Asia; to Ephesus, and to Smyrna, and to Pergamos, and to Thyatira, and to Sardis, and to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.’
that this scroll was heading with then information that would continue to the very last chapter.
The Bible still is hard and my flesh hates it @WPM.
There are great teachers out there, but it’s hard to find many that do verse by verse chapter 1 to chapter end and consider all one can from the Bible in addition history, with an added emphasis on the time and culture in which they were in there day.
This is all I can do is encourage people to study it, and if your looking and asking and seeking for answers to what one’s questions are you may find the answer better when God shows you what the truth is, and not me. I’m just sharing information for people to consider.
No one has to believe me, and I don’t believe any one here is not a believing Christian, or that I am better than anyone.
There are great teachers out there, but it’s hard to find many that do verse by verse chapter 1 to chapter end and consider all one can from the Bible in addition history, with an added emphasis on the time and culture in which they were in there day.
This is all I can do is encourage people to study it, and if your looking and asking and seeking for answers to what one’s questions are you may find the answer better when God shows you what the truth is, and not me. I’m just sharing information for people to consider.
No one has to believe me, and I don’t believe any one here is not a believing Christian, or that I am better than anyone.
Talk to God about these things.
It’s amazing we don’t had anything in between you and God that you are unable to go to talk to Him now because you are made right with God because of faith and because of being justified in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, and faith pleases God and he rewards those who seek him out diligently.
It’s amazing we don’t had anything in between you and God that you are unable to go to talk to Him now because you are made right with God because of faith and because of being justified in the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ, and faith pleases God and he rewards those who seek him out diligently.
You have clearly no answer to the Book. You duck around every Scripture, post and argument that exposes your heresy. How convenient!
Christian Gedge
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Yet there were plenty statements saying “Jesus came” at his first coming. And at his ascension we are told he will return unmistakably. It will be front page news, if indeed there is any news print left.
Truth7t7
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Do you believe Matthew 24:15-21 below is future?
If not, when, where, how, did it take place?
Matthew 24:15-21KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
You are not told he will return to you.
Those angels said to them standing there though, who watched and seen Jesus go up into the clouds.
People will see Christ though after this life that is something I believe by faith, and people go to the heavenly realm after this life to be with God or outside the gates of the kingdom.
Do you believe Matthew 24:15-21 below is future?
If not, when, where, how, did it take place?
Matthew 24:15-21KJV
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Of course not. Why would I believe that? Read what it says. How possibly does that relate to us now? This is relating to Judea in Bible times. It is speaking of AD70.
Jesus, first of all, speaks about the destruction of the temple in AD70, as a result of Israel's unbelief. He then talks about a future climactic day in the future when every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Here were two key events that would happen in the then future. The disciples were obviously inquisitive as to when these would happen. They then asked two questions in Matthew 24 in response to our Lord’s words. Matthew 24:3 records:
1. “Tell us, when shall these things be?”
2. “and what shall be the sign of thy coming (parousia), and of the end (sunteleías, meaning completion, or consummation) of the world (age)?”
This proves that the disciples were enquiring about the realization of these two aforementioned days. They wanted to know about their fulfillment. Sadly, Preterists and Premillennialists each ignore the other's events relating to the past and the future. Both are therefore missing the context and meaning. The context proves that Israel will be forced to cry "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord" at Christ's future "parousia," at "the end of the age.”
Christ addressed both questions and both eras in chapter 24. However, because of the intermingling of His response, many Bible students suffer great confusion in identifying what aspect of the teaching relates to AD 70 and what relates to the second coming.
In His response to the first question in Matthew 24:15-22, He spoke of the end of the 40 year probationary period (AD 70), saying, “When ye (the disciples) therefore shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: For then shall be great tribulation [Gr. thlipsis], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.”
Mark 13:14-20 says, “when ye (the disciples) shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. For in those days shall be tribulation (thlipsis), such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.”
This can only refer to the wrath of God being poured out on Jerusalem that destroyed the existing socio-political/cultural/religious system of Judaism, which was an offence to God. This people were decimated. Their religious system was effectively brought to nought. Nothing before AD 70, or after it, could compare in regard to the extent of its demise. Luke 21:20-24 reinforces that we are looking at AD 70.
Luke’s parallel passage, in Luke 21:20-24, records, “when ye (the disciples) shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! For there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.”
Please note the close correlation between these 3 accounts of the same event - AD70. A comparison of these three parallel narratives will see the correspondence in teaching. Pay especial notice of what is highlighted in brown. This proves that this is an historic event that pertains to the judgment of Jerusalem as a punishment for their rejection of Christ and has been long fulfilled.
Plainly: “the abomination of desolation … standing where it ought not” or standing “in the holy place” relates to the Roman soldiers that would destroy the city of Jerusalem. Luke adds meat to the bones, saying: “when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” Here is the warning sign to run! There is also the limitation of that judgment so that the Gospel would spread to the nations. The Gospel spread as Jewish families were spread throughout the world.
The Lord tells us that unless this judgment upon Jerusalem was shortened “there should no flesh be saved” (Matthew 24:22). In essence, what He was saying was, there would have been no possibility of Jewish Christians surviving it and consequently no hope of a lost Gentile world receiving this great Gospel if God’s wrath would not have been limited to a short time-period in relative terms. If the wrath of God would have continued to be poured out on wicked man as it was on Jerusalem then mankind would have been finished. But it was restricted to Christ-rejecting Jerusalem.
How can futurists seriously relate these parallel accounts of the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, which resulted in the unbelieving Jews being dispersed to “all nations,” to a supposed seven-year end-time persecution of the Church of Jesus Christ? Remember, it was this awful approaching judgment upon the Jews that caused Christ to weep over Jerusalem, crying, “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.”
Not here to please you. Not here to entertain you. It’s by faith. That is it. Just as it is by faith Jesus has changed my life from what it was without him. It’s by faith I believe that even with my understanding of failure before God. Thanks be to the Father for having sent the Son of God to reconcile the world back to himself.
Therefore it’s by faith I believe Jesus returned, to the promised people who would see him coming, and they were changed, just as the promise from Paul to the Thessalonician people, they would be retrieved from this world, just as Jesus also had promised in his teachings to those people in that generation which the apostles went forth and continued to spread the news until the end came. The end of material religion, the age of the old covenant of ended along with priesthoods, sacrifices and all of those things, even losing their genealogy.
If God promised to divorcé Israel, and Jesus promised to come back then in that day, my only conclusion is those who had been warned years prior are warned of the dangers of the soon coming of the Lord in revelation.
If none of these things happened in the past then they are for the future. It’s up to the person to decide and believing in futurist view will give a perspective of how you look at the world, just as if you see fulfilment in Christ and his promises it will give you a new perspective of how you may look at the world.
All I can do is share information: and people have to decide to look into and see what is true, and what is really possible with the narrative given through the aspect of the Bible.
Thank you.
Do not lecture any of us about faith. You are promoting heresy. When challenged you have nothing but what you have been taught. You have been deceived by a lie. Full Preterism is heresy. Those who promote it are heretics.
Every counter argument on this thread has been avoided. How about addressing the biblical evidence? You are a master at ducking the evidence. Preterists have to do that.
It’s not because of being a preterist I’m ducking questions. It’s the fact I have no evidence to prove Jesus came back, but statements that back up him coming to that generation. Therefore if you suspect that is a future generation, that is some thing you probably believe by faith. I do not believe that nor have faith in a future coming of the Lord now today. Except people will meet the Lord in death, I do believe in faith. Given a resurrection spiritual body and given place inside the gate of heaven or outside the gates of the kingdom.
That is what I believe by faith and have hope in; and it’s a good hope; and hope and edification is needed in the lives of Christians, and this is the how I see the afterlife.
According to the victory of Jesus, but people have little faith in that; as they are waiting to have their hope fulfilled in that regard.
I already showed you the context. It is talking about His future public coming in majesty and power to rescue His elect, destroy the wicked and remove all the bondage of corruption. You have no answer for that.
Truth7t7
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Please explain how you have a 70AD "Great Tribulation" and Jesus returning in the clouds of heaven "Immediately After" the tribulation of "Those Days" in 70AD?
Yes the second coming seen is "Future" but "The Great Tribulation" seen is "Future" also, and it didn't take place in 70AD as you claim
"Immediately After" doesn't equate into 2,000 years and waiting, it's that simple
"No, Nor Ever Shall Be"? World War II with 70 million casualties dwarfs reformed escgatology's "Laughable Claim" of 70AD fulfillment
Your reformed preterist interpretation "Fails" yet you will cling to it like a Millennialist does to a fairy tale Kingdom on this earth
Jesus Is The Lord
Matthew 24:21-22 & 29-31KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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Yes. It was during the destruction or during the tribulation, with the fall of Jerusalem. And I believe that by faith. You get it?
I believe the people that had seen Jesus go up in the clouds, those who were watching and waiting and looking saw him as he was when he went away. Coming in the clouds, and boy those in that day were probably so happy to see him. But the unbelievers continued to pay for their crimes by the fall of the wrath of God (they did not see Jesus they seen Gods wrath as they disregarded God even when they were having sores on them from plagues). That is how the scenario goes in my head which could be wrong @WPM.
You probably have many more questions about revelation, an assumption.
So much of it has to do with Israel and Jerusalem, and even the use of the Romans to come upon them in which they were put up in to flames of smoke.
The white throne judgment, when that happen?
When was the first resurrection? (I believe this stated in acts with the binding also of Satan, until the Gospel reached all the world as Paul proclaimed), and sometime Satan perhaps possessed someone just like he did Judas some consider it to be Nero, before the final judgment. When Satan final judgement and the false prophet and beast were all done away with forever in the lake of fire, no longer to be seen or heard from again expect in the stories of their history.
So many questions to be answered, and more studying I need to do as well. That is why I encourage you and others.
I believe the people that had seen Jesus go up in the clouds, those who were watching and waiting and looking saw him as he was when he went away. Coming in the clouds, and boy those in that day were probably so happy to see him. But the unbelievers continued to pay for their crimes by the fall of the wrath of God (they did not see Jesus they seen Gods wrath as they disregarded God even when they were having sores on them from plagues). That is how the scenario goes in my head which could be wrong @WPM.
You probably have many more questions about revelation, an assumption.
So much of it has to do with Israel and Jerusalem, and even the use of the Romans to come upon them in which they were put up in to flames of smoke.
The white throne judgment, when that happen?
When was the first resurrection? (I believe this stated in acts with the binding also of Satan, until the Gospel reached all the world as Paul proclaimed), and sometime Satan perhaps possessed someone just like he did Judas some consider it to be Nero, before the final judgment. When Satan final judgement and the false prophet and beast were all done away with forever in the lake of fire, no longer to be seen or heard from again expect in the stories of their history.
So many questions to be answered, and more studying I need to do as well. That is why I encourage you and others.
Have you ever wondered if those clouds of heaven are believers who come in the name of the Son of God as being a sign of the Son of man in heaven?
The only reason I ask, is because Jesus came in on a white horse, when Jesus came he was the light of the world.
With him now in the world, Satan, and the people who were against God, now came upon the Lord, causing war between not just between God and Satan (who’s head is crushed by the Son of God). There was war between the Jews and the gentiles, and war between the ideas of the earthly compared the heavenly, war would be symbolic of the red horse.
Let me pull the scripture to see for sure.
This would speak of Jesus, having a bow and crown. White horse resembles good, and I believe righteousness, perhaps judgment, he also has bow? The eye of the lord is sharp? He also has a crown, he is the King. He brought righteousness into the World by being sent by the Father.
This seems to resemble a representation of war. The one who sat upon the horse, was the ability to take the peace from the land, so with that peace being gone they may slay one another, and there was given to that one who was in the horse a great sword.
The spoken word of Jesus caused war between God and his people as they had become hard hearted, the word of God is sharp, and accurate as Jesus with a bow. But this caused disruption, and lead to the eventual death of Jesus and then after resurrection. The apostles were shut down for just preaching of the resurrection. However they continued despite their efforts.
The black horse and the rider upon it had a balance in his hand. This could be represented as the law of Moses in the hand, and that it was the judgment of God between the covenant God had made with Adam, in the promised seed, that would come from Abraham’s soon to rise nation which is Israel.
There are also specific instructions on not injure the oil and wine; which reminds me of anointing Christ and his blood. There seems to be a balance or a judgment here with this horse. Maybe their was famine going on at the time.
I could be wrong, also.
Now we have the green/pale horse. The one who ride this horse, name is death, and hades does follow with him. They were given authority to kill, (over fourth part of the land) with with sword, and with hunger and with death, and by the beasts of the land.
This to me resembles the literal punishment upon the nation of Israel in which the land was destroyed and famine and death continued until desolation.
Therefore before Jesus; the judgment of the Jewish people depended on the Law of Moses and there would be blessing and cursing. Fulfilled the law by coming in on a white horse with accurate accuracy and fine point precision.
This caused and uproar between the Jews and Jesus; eventually their demise when the Romans had came. War started.
With judgment in check, everything would go as it needed to go; as it was according to the law of Moses which had not yet been fully taken out of the picture until the destruction has come upon them.
And all the Jews had known before Jesus came, was death, and hell. Because of rejection of the Lord these judgments went through until those who saw Jesus, return were take away, which would symbolize that Sin was taken care of and the blood of Jesus was accepted. And also his victory, once all enemies had been placed under his feet.
Those who ended up in hell from this time eventually would come into judgment having the souls been poured out from it.
There souls of the slain, under the alter. It was because of the word of God, and the testimony they had held. People in that day in age were killed for being Christian.
These slain souls were crying out with a great voice, asking God if he will take vengeance from those who had killed them. Think about the prophets of old whom the people of Jerusalem had killed.
And because of this; they are given white robes. And it was said to them that they may rest for yet. A little time, till may be fulfilled ; speaking of perhaps the 144,000. Also their fellow-servants and their brethren,
Who are about the be killed - even as they.
Revelation 6:1-11 YLT98
Revelation 6:1-11 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying, as it were a voice of thunder, ‘Come and behold!’ and I saw, and lo, a white horse, and he who is | Young's Literal Translation 1
And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying, as it were a voice of thunder, ‘Come and behold!’ and I saw, and lo, a white horse, and he who isbible.com
So John there in revelation 6, is explaining to the churches what has been, and eventually what will be comes into play in revelation 21-22.
People can also see it as rotation of history with the white, red, black, green/pale horse.
He writes to his audience of the things he sees and comments that they who had been souls under the alter that had been slain previously to have have some rest a little longer, until their fellow servants and brothers also to be killed as they were.
He then goes on speaking and saying,
Even harder for me to understand, but upon the sixth seal, a great earthquake is seen, and the sun perhaps has an eclipse, and a night blood moon had occurred, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth.
Could stars of Heaven symbolize those who were believers whom had became slain and fall to the earth?
Could stars of heaven symbolize fire falling down upon the land by the besiege of the Romans?
John says that once all that had became, there would be a great shaking, and then heaven departed as the scrolled rolled up, and every mountain and island,
Because of this earth quake and the times of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
The result of what happens is catastrophic in which people go and run and hide in the mountains around them.
They say, hide us from the face of him who is upon the throne sitting and the anger of the Lamb? Because come did the great day of his , and who is able to stand?
People can also see it as rotation of history with the white, red, black, green/pale horse.
He writes to his audience of the things he sees and comments that they who had been souls under the alter that had been slain previously to have have some rest a little longer, until their fellow servants and brothers also to be killed as they were.
He then goes on speaking and saying,
Even harder for me to understand, but upon the sixth seal, a great earthquake is seen, and the sun perhaps has an eclipse, and a night blood moon had occurred, and the stars of heaven fell to the earth.
Could stars of Heaven symbolize those who were believers whom had became slain and fall to the earth?
Could stars of heaven symbolize fire falling down upon the land by the besiege of the Romans?
John says that once all that had became, there would be a great shaking, and then heaven departed as the scrolled rolled up, and every mountain and island,
The earthquake moved places that probably collapsed and are destroyed.
Because of this earth quake and the times of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
The result of what happens is catastrophic in which people go and run and hide in the mountains around them.
They say, hide us from the face of him who is upon the throne sitting and the anger of the Lamb? Because come did the great day of his , and who is able to stand?
Revelation 6:12-17 YLT98
Revelation 6:12-17 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood, and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth — a | Young's Literal Translation
And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and lo, a great earthquake came, and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood, and the stars of the heaven fell to the earth — abible.com
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