David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Do you know of a passage of scripture that declares a pre-rapture of the collective Body of Saints before His Coming?
Who are the 144,000?
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The pre-trib rapture is a true doctrine. As this verse proves “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again (rapture) and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. And where I go you know, and the way you know.” John 14:1-4 NKJV, "He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up (symbolic of the rapture) between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy."
Ezekiel 8:3 NKJV, "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here (symbolic of rapture), and I will show you things which must take place after this.” Revelation 4:1 NKJV. Also in Book of Revelation it states the whole world will receive the mark of the beast who's names are not written in the Book of Life which means the church was raptured.
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Rapture is True but pre-trib rapture is a complete lie from men.
The rapture of living Saints ONLY occurs at His Second Coming and will NEVER happen BEFORE that.
1 Thess 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel,
and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise.
After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
Therefore encourage one another with these words.
Not correct. Jesus physical second coming is to save Israel during the Great Tribulation as this verse proves "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you (Israel as a nation fully comes into belief) say, ‘Blessed is He who comes (Second coming to save Israel during the Great Tribulation) in the name of the Lord!’ ” Matthew 23:39 NKJV so
1 Thess 4:13-18 is definitely proof of the pre-trib rapture. In addition in Book of Revelation the 24 elders are symbolic of the church and they are shown in heaven before the tribulation begins. How did they get there? There were raptured before the tribulation.
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Davy
Well-Known Member
Make us laugh bro!
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Proverbs 30:5-6
Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar.
OK - let's follow God's words of Truth without adding our own or taking away from His = OK
Bring forth from Scripture that validates your claim = that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is a pre-trib rapture
Your making me laugh. People think some of Matthew 24 text relates to the rapture as you think. Matthew 24 has entirely Jewish them not a theme for the church. Matthew 24 is entirely about Israel going through the Great Tribulation and Jesus returning to gather the true Israelites back to Jerusalem after the nation of Israel fully comes into belief. Verse 31 has nothing to do with the rapture . In Matthew 24 when it says one will be taken and one will remain that has nothing to do with the rapture it's about how 2/3 of Israel will not make it through the Great Tribulation. As this verse proves "And it shall come to pass in all the land,” Says the Lord, “That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one–third shall be left in it: I will bring the one–third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, ‘This is My people’; And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’ ” Zechariah 13:8-9 NKJV
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Every lie has it's beginning and more lies spring forth from the first lie.
pre-trib rapture is a LIE and many more lies come from it
Lie #1 - pre-trib rapture
Scripture Rebuke #1 - John 16:33 "In the world you will have tribulation"
Matthew 24:9 - they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
Scripture Truth #1 = pre-trib rapture never came out of the Mouth of God
Lie #2 - "Matthew 24 has entirely Jewish them not a theme for the church." - this is very evil and comes from the evil one
Scripture Rebuke #2 - John 3:29-30 "He who has the Bride is the Bridegroom; but the friend of the Bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly because of the Bridegroom’s voice.
Scripture Truth #2 = JESUS is the Bridegroom and His disciples are the Bride = His Church
Scripture Truth #2 = JESUS is speaking to His Bride in Matthew ch24
Matthew 24:3 - "Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
Scripture Truth #3 = JESUS has a Bride/the Church - His Bride/Church brings the Gospel to the world.
Matthew 24: 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
Scripture Truth #4 = JESUS is Returning for His Bride/the Church/His Elect/the Saints
Matthew 24: 29-31 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Conclusion = Matthew chapter 24 is written to His Church/the Body of Christ
pre-trib rapture is a lie that produces more lies
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No Matthew 24 has entirely Jewish theme Jesus is speaking to disciples about Roman 70AD invasion and when they nation of Israel will go through the Great Tribulation and come into full belief. As this proves "See! Your house is left to you desolate (Roman 70AD invasion temple destroyed); for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you (You = Nation of Israel coming into full belief during the Great Tribulation) say, ‘Blessed is He (Jesus second coming to save and gather Israelites back to Jerusalem) who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ” Matthew 23:38-39 NKJV. Again Matthew 24 has entirely Jewish theme Jesus is talking to disciples. Gathering of the elect (Israel) is when Jesus will gather Israelites back to Jerusalem.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Error #3 - "Gathering of the elect (Israel) is when Jesus will gather Israelites back to Jerusalem."
We now know that JESUS disciples are His Bride/the Church = Post #128
Now we will see that His Elect are His Body/His Church
John 15:16 - "You did not elect Me, but I elected you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. These things I command you, that you love one another."
1 Peter 1:2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit,
for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 2:4-6 "Coming to Jesus/Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but elected by God and precious, you also(elected), as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
Colossians 3:8-12
But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth.
Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free,
but Christ is all and in all.
Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved,
You have been given the Truth directly from Scripture which cannot lie = Post #128 and Post #130
We have been commanded by God not to lie = "thou shall not lie" and "you shall not bear false witness"
Currently, your words are against the Holy Scripture because they come from a lie = 'pre-trib rapture'
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Scripture Truth #5 - Matthew 23:37=39 JESUS ends His speaking to the nation Israel which is dead to God because of their sin.
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say,
‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”
The Temple on earth in Jerusalem was a foreshadow of CHRIST and to Whom the FATHER would receive prayers through.
Then Jesus went into the temple of God and drove out all those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the money changers and the seats of those who sold doves. And He said to them, “It is written, ‘My house shall be called a house of prayer,’ but you have made it a ‘den of thieves.’ ”
This earthbound Temple, built with men's hands, was only a temporary place that pointed to Christ who is the Eternal Temple of God.
JESUS is the House/Temple of God who walked in their midst, yet "they knew Him not". = John 2:18-22
So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
But He was speaking of the temple of His body. Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.
When Solomon finished building the Temple and on the day of Dedication he Prophesied by the Holy Spirit saying:
"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?" - 1 Kings 8:27
God destroyed the earthbound empty temple in Jerusalem in 70AD because it was never intended to be the place of God's Rest.
JESUS is the Eternal Temple of God where all nations now flow into for prayer and worship in the Presence of God.
Acts 15:12-18
Then all the multitude kept silent and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring how many miracles and wonders God had worked through them among the Gentiles. And after they had become silent, James answered, saying, “Men and brethren, listen to me: Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written:
‘After this I will return
And will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down;
I will rebuild its ruins,
And I will set it up;
So that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord,
Even all the Gentiles who are called by My name,
Says the Lord who does all these things.’
Known to God from eternity are all His works.
ScottA
Well-Known Member
The words are spiritually discerned:
The twelve tribes are God's chosen people. They are in two groups stated as "Jacob" before God changes them by name, meaning before Christ and before salvation came, and also as "Israel", meaning those after Christ and salvation came, the Gentiles.
"Twelve" means all tribes, and "thousand" means all.
In other words, "144,000" means all of God's chosen people, before and after Christ, first the Jews and then the Gentiles. In terms of time rather than in terms of people, it is also written, as: "a time, times, and half a time", which are the times before and after Christ and the dividing of light from the darkness.
A time (1), times (2), and half a time (6 months) refers to 3 and 1/2 years
ScottA
Well-Known Member
According to men, yes. But not according to God.
With God sevens and times are synonymous. The foreshadowing of "a time, times, and half a time" was the seven days/times of creation--the key word being "creation"...meaning all of it...all of time.
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ScottA
Well-Known Member
Everyone has to die at some point. But after the first class of those whom were of the bride and of the body of Christ, more would follow after it seems like. Considering Jewish people were used to bring the messiah, and those first people to believe were of that time. But more would follow after, just like the vineyard, after the best fruit had came, that doesn’t mean more fruit was not to come.
Thank God for the second covenant promise of writing his laws in the hearts and minds of believers who seek him out in faith.
Rev 11:3 - “And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundredand sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
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Was it Jesus and the Gospel of Him, that were the witnesses?Rev 11:3 - “And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundredand sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.”
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Rev 12:6 - Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days. ////// 3and 1/2 years
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