The folly of Preterism

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WPM

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I don’t believe there is a need for a new earth today. You can quote scripture all day? But that doesn’t necessarily mean anything.

Listen though you are obviously correct in your own mind and viewpoint. You need to be convinced in your own mind, like myself about these things.

Idk what God has prepared for those who love him.

Here you go again. You refuse to address the clear obvious teaching of the inspired text presented to you and rather prefer to default to your own faulty heretical Full Preterist teachers. That is fool-hearty! But that sums up Full Preterism.

Once again, as the reader will see, and as if the Full Preterist MO, you have no rebuttal for heard Scripture.
 

WPM

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Is the destruction of the wicked generation and the saved from the wrath of God the end of the age for material religion, and if Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and people are looking for Heavenly destination, I don’t believe people who believe we will go to a new earth.







John saw a new revealing - in which the Kingdom God is a holy city; it’s separated now, between its former counter part. Called the New Jerusalem. John saw in his vision it coming down from heaven, and it was prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Today people become part of the body, and they have the kingdom of God resides in the heart of independent believers.



They are adopted; and become heirs with Christ.


They have citizenship in heaven.

It is impossible to engage with you because you continually avoid the arguments presented. You have to do that in order to sustain your error.
 
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MatthewG

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You probably did not read all of the post that have been made anyways.

That is not my fault and it is okay.

There is no reason to argue or to try to change one’s mind if they are convinced anyway of how they see scripture.

Romans 14: Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. [6] He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

@WPM.
 

ScottA

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Wrong again. I have no "hatred of Preterists"! Opposing your doctrine seems to equate to hating the individual. That is what posters normally claim when they cannot refute the argument of their opponent.

You are yet to refute Amil. Where am i biblically wrong?
I do not answer to you, but to God. I have stated the truth however, not keeping it from you. Perhaps you should read it again...don't miss post #56. Meanwhile, your own actions and character speak for themselves.
 
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Randy Kluth

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I'm not waiting to be translated into the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, it has already happened long ago, "Past Tense"

Read it again and again

"HATH" not "WILL"

Jesus will hand over "His Kingdom", not Satan's worldly kingdom of darkness, as you falsely claim

Colossians 1:13KJV
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
I'm not arguing Col 1.13. I never said that Christians have not been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the Kingdom of Christ! Never denied that!

But the verse in question does *not* say that!

1 Cor 15.24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

The "kingdom" that is "handed over" by Christ is *not* the Kingdom of God. Rather, it is the kingdom of this world!

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”


The "kingdom of the world" is obviously not the Kingdom of God. We've been translated into the Kingdom of God vicariously through Christ himself. But that Kingdom is still in heaven. It's earthly form is purely temporal, and is oppressed by the kingdom of this world, ruled by Satan.

Christ does not obtain the entire world until the last enemy, death, is defeated. And this takes place *at* his Coming! We enter into the Kingdom of God during the present age. But the kingdom of this world is not completely obtained by Christ until the end of the age. At that time, Christ hands the reins of power over this world to God the Father.

You likely believe that death was defeated at the cross. Certainly Christ won a victory over death on our behalf at his resurrection, following the cross.

However, I believe that death is defeated in its literal fulfillment only when the saints rise from the dead at Christ's 2nd Coming. That is when death, the last enemy, is defeated, in my opinion.
 
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MatthewG

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I'm not arguing Col 1.13. I never said that Christians have not been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the Kingdom of Christ! Never denied that!

But the verse in question does *not* say that!

1 Cor 15.24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

The "kingdom" that is "handed over" by Christ is *not* the Kingdom of God. Rather, it is the kingdom of this world!

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”


The "kingdom of the world" is obviously not the Kingdom of God. We've been translated into the Kingdom of God vicariously through Christ himself. But that Kingdom is still in heaven. It's earthly form is purely temporal, and is oppressed by the kingdom of this world, ruled by Satan.

Christ does not obtain the entire world until the last enemy, death, is defeated. And this takes place *at* his Coming! We enter into the Kingdom of God during the present age. But the kingdom of this world is not completely obtained by Christ until the end of the age. At that time, Christ hands the reins of power over this world to God the Father.

You likely believe that death was defeated at the cross. Certainly Christ won a victory over death on our behalf at his resurrection, following the cross.

However, I believe that death is defeated in its literal fulfillment only when the saints rise from the dead at Christ's 2nd Coming. That is when death, the last enemy, is defeated, in my opinion.
Interesting synopsis thank you for sharing.
 

WPM

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I do not answer to you, but to God. I have stated the truth however, not keeping it from you. Perhaps you should read it again...don't miss post #56. Meanwhile, your own actions and character speak for themselves.

I am not going to take lectures from you about my motives. Thankfully, you are not God or a heart-reader. I call you a heretic because Scripture does. I understand you are not going to like that. But it is a fact. You deny the literal climactic future return of Christ, which ushers in the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state.

Who in the early Church right up until the Reformation held to this denial of reality? Who are your historic forefathers? They are all amongst the heretics. That is the camp you belong to.

I have much in common with orthodox Partial Preterists, but nothing in common with a heretic.
 
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WPM

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Is the destruction of the wicked generation and the saved from the wrath of God the end of the age for material religion, and if Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, and people are looking for Heavenly destination, I don’t believe people who believe we will go to a new earth.







John saw a new revealing - in which the Kingdom God is a holy city; it’s separated now, between its former counter part. Called the New Jerusalem. John saw in his vision it coming down from heaven, and it was prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

Today people become part of the body, and they have the kingdom of God resides in the heart of independent believers.



They are adopted; and become heirs with Christ.


They have citizenship in heaven.

The earth God's people will function on will be perfect. Hello! Job and all the meek dead in Christ are going to inherit a perfected earth. You cannot deal with that.
 

MatthewG

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The earth God's people will function on will be perfect. Hello! Job and all the meek dead in Christ are going to inherit a perfected earth. You cannot deal with that.

how do you deal with the scriptures that I shared earlier though @WPM?
 

MatthewG

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Also why is Job consider to be poetry and also psalms and proverbs why are those categories all together?
 

Truth7t7

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I'm not arguing Col 1.13. I never said that Christians have not been delivered from the power of darkness and translated into the Kingdom of Christ! Never denied that!

But the verse in question does *not* say that!

1 Cor 15.24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

The "kingdom" that is "handed over" by Christ is *not* the Kingdom of God. Rather, it is the kingdom of this world!

Rev 11.15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:
The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”


The "kingdom of the world" is obviously not the Kingdom of God. We've been translated into the Kingdom of God vicariously through Christ himself. But that Kingdom is still in heaven. It's earthly form is purely temporal, and is oppressed by the kingdom of this world, ruled by Satan.

Christ does not obtain the entire world until the last enemy, death, is defeated. And this takes place *at* his Coming! We enter into the Kingdom of God during the present age. But the kingdom of this world is not completely obtained by Christ until the end of the age. At that time, Christ hands the reins of power over this world to God the Father.

You likely believe that death was defeated at the cross. Certainly Christ won a victory over death on our behalf at his resurrection, following the cross.

However, I believe that death is defeated in its literal fulfillment only when the saints rise from the dead at Christ's 2nd Coming. That is when death, the last enemy, is defeated, in my opinion.
I fully understand your "False Teaching", as you continue to teach error after being show biblical truth, again and again

Scripture clearly teaches in verse 26 that the last enemy is death, while verses 52-54 show how and when death is swallowed up in victory at the resurrection (Then Cometh The End)

Randy you bend and twist scripture falsely, you don't want to acknowledge (Then Cometh The End) You don't want to acknowledge that at the resurrection (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory) you have been shown biblical truth several times, you continue to teach contrary to God's words below

Randy the scripture below clearly teaches that when Jesus Christ returns, the resurrection takes place, at this time mortal puts on immortality as death is swallowed up in victory (Then Cometh The End)

Randy how do you continue to teach death isn't swallowed up in victory below, as you teach a mortal millennial kingdom follows this second coming where mortal humans are dying physical death

The scripture is simple, clear, and before your eyes, and you will continue to falsely teach contrary to God's words below "Why"?

Once a person is shown biblical truth, and if they continue to teach contrary to truth presented, they become the false teacher and deceiver, it's that simple

1 Corinthians 15:21-24 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end
, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

Randy Kluth

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I fully understand your "False Teaching", as you continue to teach error after being show biblical truth, again and again
Calling my teaching "False Teaching" is immature and not worthy of a mature saint of God. My beliefs are representative of Christian belief, of the doctrinally-orthodox variety, throughout Christian history. Name-calling and malicious slander does not sit well with me, nor should it. Discussion of differences can be done in a responsible, friendly, brotherly way. You've never chosen to do that. Why?

I don't believe you're intellectually incapable of understanding the argument. I believe you're choosing to be contentious, stirring up division between brothers--something the NT Scriptures warned against.

For the sake of those who are able to reason through this, whatever their position, I'll reiterate my position on this. At the 2nd Coming, death is defeated on behalf of the Church of the present age, and on behalf of all saints in the past. This has nothing to do with what Rev 20 speaks of with respect to an inferred "2nd Resurrection," to take place on behalf of mortals who die during the Millennial Age.

The fact some have not yet experienced glorification in the Millennium does *not* mean death has not been substantially defeated at Christ's Coming. The resurrection of many millions of believers from all of history is in fact a defeat of Death! The continuation of mortal history, requiring a further defeat of death in the future, does not contradict this.

Don't bother to respond unless you're willing to discuss like Christians should discuss things.
 

rwb

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I get that...but if I had not mentioned that the harvest was ready way back then, is it not true that most of Christendom has disregarded the times since then believing that the entire harvest does not come until the end of time, even though it is also written, "but each one in his own order?"

The point is, that indeed, the events unfold even unto the end of times...but began with the "firstfruits" (Christ) during His time, which many as much as deny.

Thus, along with their own error, many also point the finger (in this case at the Preterists) without considering the log in their own eye.

The entire harvest does not come until the last day when Christ shall send His angels to gather His elect! Christ is the firstfruits of the physical resurrection that shall come. He is the first to be physically resurrected from the dead to physically die no more.

The verse you partially quote tells us that Christ is the firstfruits of those who had physically died in Him before He arose from the dead. They are not without hope because there is an order for the bodily resurrection that shall come. If Christ had not been the first (fruistfruits of the dead) to physically resurrect from the dead, then all those of faith who died before His resurrection have perished. But they have not perished, as other men without Christ who have died in unbelief, because by His resurrection Christ defeated death.

1 Corinthians 15:18-20 (KJV) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

All of mankind die, but those who die in Christ shall be made alive at Him coming again, because Christ as the firstfruits of the dead has defeated death for them. The order is first Christ was resurrected to physical life, then they that are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end!

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
 

MatthewG

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But if all of mankind die in the earth now, And, then there is no such thing as an everlasting kingdom that forever increases.

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This world sure will continue to have people populating here, and some in faith go join to be with God.
 

ScottA

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You deny the literal climactic future return of Christ, which ushers in the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state.
This is your false accusation (above).

I do not "deny the literal climactic future return of Christ, which ushers in the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state." (And you know what the scriptures say about faults witnesses.) It is not that I deny these things, but testify that the timing is not "future" for those like myself to whom Christ has already returned, according to what Paul also said is rather "but each one in his own order"--He has returned to me in the full glory of the Father.

In any case, your lack of understanding the full reality of these things does not make anyone a heretic. But it does make you an accuser.
 
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rwb

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But if all of mankind die in the earth now, And, then there is no such thing as an everlasting kingdom that forever increases.

Isaiah 9:7
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

This world sure will continue to have people populating here, and some in faith go join to be with God.

The Kingdom of God that is forever and increases every time a man/woman of faith dies is not physical but is spiritual and located with God in heaven. That's why Christ says the Kingdom of God NOW is not of this world, is not observable, and can only be understood and entered when one is born again of the Spirit within them. Though our physical body is ordained to die, the life we have through His Spirit in us NEVER dies. Because when the physical body of the man/woman of faith dies, the spirit within those of faith, through the Holy Spirit in us returns to God with eternal life even though our body is dead.
 
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rwb

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This is your false accusation (above).

I do not "deny the literal climactic future return of Christ, which ushers in the general resurrection/judgment of the living and the dead and the introduction of the new perfect eternal state." (And you know what the scriptures say about faults witnesses.) It is not that I deny these things, but testify that the timing is not "future" for those like myself to whom Christ has already returned, according to what Paul also said is rather "but each one in his own order"--He has returned to me in the full glory of the Father.

In any case, your lack of understanding the full reality of these things does not make anyone a heretic. But it does make you an accuser.

You claim you have already attained the new perfect eternal state, but this passage from Hebrews says that none of these Old Testament faithful dead saints have already attained perfection and will not attain perfection until the whole body of Christ attains the new perfect eternal state together.

Hebrews 11:32-40 (WEB) What more shall I say? For the time would fail me if I told of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets; who, through faith subdued kingdoms, worked out righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, grew mighty in war, and turned to flight armies of aliens. Women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, not accepting their deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Others were tried by mocking and scourging, yes, moreover by bonds and imprisonment. They were stoned. They were sawn apart. They were tempted. They were slain with the sword. They went around in sheep skins and in goat skins; being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts, mountains, caves, and the holes of the earth. These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn't receive the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
 
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rwb

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While clothed in mortal bodies of death, we shall never attain perfect righteousness. It is only through the spirits of just (righteous) men that have been made spiritually perfect through Jesus. Since through our spirits we have been justified (declared righteous) in Christ we have access to Mount Sion, the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem and abide there with Christ and an innumerable company of angels.

Hebrews 12:18-24 (KJV) For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This is why Christ tells us the Kingdom of God NOW in this world is NOT of this world (not physical), and is not understood, or entered unless we are indwelt with the Spirit of Christ. His Kingdom now in this Messianic Gospel age is spiritual and will not be a physical Kingdom again until all things have been made new again when Christ returns. Then the Kingdom of God that is now spiritual and in heaven will be inhabited by those of faith in this life, changed from mortal to immortal, and corruptible to incorruptible body of flesh fit for life upon the new earth with Christ forevermore.
 

ScottA

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The entire harvest does not come until the last day when Christ shall send His angels to gather His elect! Christ is the firstfruits of the physical resurrection that shall come. He is the first to be physically resurrected from the dead to physically die no more.

The verse you partially quote tells us that Christ is the firstfruits of those who had physically died in Him before He arose from the dead. They are not without hope because there is an order for the bodily resurrection that shall come. If Christ had not been the first (fruistfruits of the dead) to physically resurrect from the dead, then all those of faith who died before His resurrection have perished. But they have not perished, as other men without Christ who have died in unbelief, because by His resurrection Christ defeated death.

1 Corinthians 15:18-20 (KJV) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

All of mankind die, but those who die in Christ shall be made alive at Him coming again, because Christ as the firstfruits of the dead has defeated death for them. The order is first Christ was resurrected to physical life, then they that are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end!

1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
You are not hearing even those things you have quoted.

Paul says "but now"..."and become" (present tense). He was also referring to "them that slept" (past tense). He also said "afterward"...which I have not said differently.

But what is missing in your explanation, is that you have not defined "the end" properly. Which Jesus and Paul only eluded to, but did clarify, Jesus saying "I am the Beginning and the End", but also, "but the end is not yet." In the one case He referred to Himself as "the [E]nd", but also made exception and clarification referring to "the end" of the world as not to be confused with Himself.

It is this difference of reality between the two, that qualifies Paul's statement of "but each in his own order" (speaking of each individual) to be different than most have wrongly concluded...as well as a host of other passages also misunderstood, such as: "Behold, I stand at the door and knock [present tense]. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me" [individually]; "lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age”; “Behold, I am coming quickly!"; "—things which must shortly take place"; "for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." As well as the many passages that are even given in past tense as having already occurred, even then. It is rather these things that are literal, and are not to be explained away.
 
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ScottA

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You claim you have already attained the new perfect eternal state, but this passage from Hebrews says that none of these Old Testament faithful dead saints have already attained perfection and will not attain perfection until the whole body of Christ attains the new perfect eternal state together.

Hebrews 11:32-40 (WEB) What more shall I say? For the time would fail me if I told of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, David, Samuel, and the prophets; who, through faith subdued kingdoms, worked out righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, quenched the power of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, from weakness were made strong, grew mighty in war, and turned to flight armies of aliens. Women received their dead by resurrection. Others were tortured, not accepting their deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. Others were tried by mocking and scourging, yes, moreover by bonds and imprisonment. They were stoned. They were sawn apart. They were tempted. They were slain with the sword. They went around in sheep skins and in goat skins; being destitute, afflicted, ill-treated (of whom the world was not worthy), wandering in deserts, mountains, caves, and the holes of the earth. These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn't receive the promise, God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
You are under the wrong impression, not understanding...as if God and the things of God were actually on the same created timeline of men and this world. They are not.

Therefore, it is written that we "were" crucified with Christ, and He "was" slain before the foundation of the world (past tense). But these things were not to be fully known until the time of the end by the Holy Spirit's leading unto all truth before the sounding of the seventh angel...and yet it was to come, and has come.

Even so, Hebrews 11:32-40 was to the "Hebrews"...who's forefathers would have all died before salvation had come, and therefore "did not receive the promise" in their lifetime. These are referred to as "the dead in Christ", who were "in Christ" of whom He was "the Last", and were crucified and raised up with Him. Thus, it is also written of them that we "by no means precede those who are asleep", for they even preceded Christ.