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The problem with most teachings of most church's, is that independent thought is discouraged in deferment to authority of the Pastor, Priest, Deacon etc...Read the Bible , think for yourselves and rethink the illogical views such as "God will punish me forever in my sin."
If God is the God of Love, why would He accept that we would turn away from Him completely and accept that we would choose pure and horrifying pain and torment- even though we cannot even conceive that that is what path we are leading ourselves into!
"If God is for us, who can be against us?" (Rom. 8:31)
Satan has presumably lost his battle, right? So how could any soul, any soul at all be lost in the caverns of Hell for an eternity? God wins, Satan Loses. God wouldn't want us to live in torture for an eternity, its a lie to make us Christians live in fear, live in fear of making the wrong step when the truth is that our God loves us more than that.
JLB...I dont know...but I thought Heaven was supposed to be a place of total peace and love..how could it be if Abraham could see someone being tormented....I dont think I could ever be happy knowing there was people suffering so forever.
In Acts 24:15, Apostle Paul made the statement that he had 'hope' there will be both a resurrection of the just... AND of the unjust.
If all the unjust are already judged to perish, then Paul would have never said such a thing; nor would he have attached an idea like 'hope' to it.
Thankfully, the ONLY ones as of today that are already judged and sentenced to perish are Satan and his angels. Not even Judas Iscariot has been judged to perish yet. None born flesh are judged to perish until the Great White Throne Judgment at the END of Christ's future "thousand years" reign.
The exact words of Jesus in that passage do not indicate forgivenenss in the age to come. But if there is such a thing, there would be mention of it elswhere in scripture. Please show us those references.Remember the words of Christ Himself when He said -
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
By saying "in the age to come" He is alluding to the fact that you can be punished during this age, yet be forgiven or pardoned in the age to come.
Thanks, JLB
The exact words of Jesus in that passage do not indicate forgivenenss in the age to come. But if there is such a thing, there would be mention of it elswhere in scripture. Please show us those references.
On the other hand, if one is forgiven in this age, it does carry over into the age to come. This is what the scripture does indicate; that whatever state we are in when we pass on, this will not change. It is far more likely that this is what Jesus was alluding to.
As for Paul's statement in Acts 24:15, we know that there are two separate resurrections that take place. The first one includes those who reign with Christ for a thousand years. Over such the second death has no power (Rev.20:6).
In Paul's account of the resurrection, he makes no mention of the unjust (1Cor.ch.15). He is speaking there of the first resurrection at Christ's coming, which includes all who are in Christ (vs.21-23).
The resurrection of the unjust is the second resurrection, and happens at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, likely because there is a final rebellion that takes place at that time. So they are raised to the judgment at the Great White Throne, where all are cast into the Lake of Fire together.
Not all the people in hell chose Hell. What about remote tribes in palces like Borneo or in the Amazon rainforest who will never get to hear the Gospel. They won'tmake a choice but because their not Christians then they'll have to go to Hell anyway.
I hoe that there is a chance for these peiople, though scripture has nothing to day about their situation.
Also I urge anyone who doesn't believe in Hell to look at the near death experiences on youtube.
The exact words of Jesus in that passage do not indicate forgivenenss in the age to come. But if there is such a thing, there would be mention of it elswhere in scripture. Please show us those references.
On the other hand, if one is forgiven in this age, it does carry over into the age to come. This is what the scripture does indicate; that whatever state we are in when we pass on, this will not change. It is far more likely that this is what Jesus was alluding to.
As for Paul's statement in Acts 24:15, we know that there are two separate resurrections that take place. The first one includes those who reign with Christ for a thousand years. Over such the second death has no power (Rev.20:6).
In Paul's account of the resurrection, he makes no mention of the unjust (1Cor.ch.15). He is speaking there of the first resurrection at Christ's coming, which includes all who are in Christ (vs.21-23).
The resurrection of the unjust is the second resurrection, and happens at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, likely because there is a final rebellion that takes place at that time. So they are raised to the judgment at the Great White Throne, where all are cast into the Lake of Fire together.
In my observation of scripture, this does not apply do anyone in this age. Forgiveness happens here. The benefits of it will carry over into the next age. If the age to come refers to the thousand year reign of Christ, I am open. However, no one here will be in need of forgiveness then. We will be resurrected in our new body before then. This is the result of having been forgiven.In your opinion, what does it mean to receive forgiveness "in the age to come".
Thanks, JLB
Thanks brother. I appreciate your reply. I disagree with parts of it, though. However, I see that this may take some quality time to reply to, so will come back when I have more time. Hopefull later today. HowieStudy the Books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. It's there, but probably not in the sense you might expect. Apostle Paul alluded to it in part at the end of Romans 11 about all Israel being saved after he had revealed how God had for this present world blinded Israel in part against The Gospel.
Naturally so, and that's basically the only side of the matter which the Churches preach. But any Bible student can keep reading for theirselves and discover there's going to be a thousand years reign by Christ and His elect over the nations with "a rod of iron". So if sinners today die without Christ never to be given to know His Truth, then what's that coming Millennium reign for? Why wouldn't God just end all the unjust at Christ's return and then take us immediately into His Eternity? Obviously, God's Word has more to say on that matter which the Churches don't preach. That may be why you have a gap in your understanding about this.
That interpretation is a common tradition about Rev.20, and it's not entirely accurate. In John 5:28-29 Jesus said there will be 2 types of resurrection at His coming, one for the just and one for the unjust. That's what Paul's hope was about in Acts 24:15 concerning the unjust, that some of them per chance would saved in Christ's Millennium reign.
Isa 29:22-24
22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of Mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify My name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
(KJV)
1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(KJV)
The "day of the Lord Jesus" is about Christ's future Millennium reign. Paul was commending that believer in 1 Cor.5 who was having sexual intercourse with his own mother into the hands of Satan, separating him away from the Church at Corinth.
No, he covered a little about the resurrection of damnation there in 1 Cor.15 also; he just didn't use that type of terminology. And it's especially discerned in the Greek verses like 1 Cor.15:53-54. Back at verses 45-51 he also hinted at the resurrection of the unjust, simply because the unjust are included with those who have borne the image of the earthy, and those like Adam being made a living soul. In 1 Cor.15:51 he said "all" shall be changed. Since he had covered the idea of all men in the previous part, that must be understood to mean all men, and not just those in Christ Jesus.
In the Greek of 1 Cor.15:53-54, Paul stated 4 separate Greek words with 4 distinct meanings involving the 'change' of 2 parts of our being, our body of "corruption" to one of "incorruption", and then our soul ("this mortal") must "put on immortality". That's 2 distinct changes required to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus, one to our flesh and the other to our spirit that's inside our flesh. The resurrection of damnation will only experience the 1st change. One can be in the heavenly "spiritual body" state and still be subject to the "second death", for it means one's soul still has not put on immortality through Christ Jesus. You do understand that the "resurrection of damnation" Jesus declared means the unjust in resurrected type bodies don't you?
No, it's not the inferred second resurrection. The "resurrection of damnation" happens at the start of Christ's Millennium, at His coming, like He said in John 5:28-29. That's what those in the "outer darkness" is about. See Rev.22:14-15 also about that separation during His future thousand years reign.
Some of this was first given through God's Old Testament prophets, and that's where Apostle Paul was pulling from with a lot of it. The Isaiah 25 Scripture is where Paul got the teaching of death being swallowed up in victory. So surely he assumed that we would go back and study the Old Testament Scriptures about this matter of the resurrection that he covered. How many have done that OT study today? How many Churches do that? What are they teaching instead? So if all this sounds foreign to you, that's why.
In your opinion, I have a gap in my understanding. What makes you think that the unjust will be resurrected to live in the millenium reign? The bible says it is appointed for man once to die and after that, the judgment (Heb.9:27). We do know there is a second death after the judgment. That's two by my count. One before the judgment, and one after. And we also know that the judgment occurs after the millenium reign.Study the Books of Isaiah and Ezekiel. It's there, but probably not in the sense you might expect. Apostle Paul alluded to it in part at the end of Romans 11 about all Israel being saved after he had revealed how God had for this present world blinded Israel in part against The Gospel.
Naturally so, and that's basically the only side of the matter which the Churches preach. But any Bible student can keep reading for theirselves and discover there's going to be a thousand years reign by Christ and His elect over the nations with "a rod of iron". So if sinners today die without Christ never to be given to know His Truth, then what's that coming Millennium reign for? Why wouldn't God just end all the unjust at Christ's return and then take us immediately into His Eternity? Obviously, God's Word has more to say on that matter which the Churches don't preach. That may be why you have a gap in your understanding about this.
Well...John5:28,29 makes no mention of the second coming. Did Jesus intend to put the same time frame on both resurrections? Or was He simply stating that there would be one for both the just and unjust?That interpretation is a common tradition about Rev.20, and it's not entirely accurate. In John 5:28-29 Jesus said there will be 2 types of resurrection at His coming, one for the just and one for the unjust. That's what Paul's hope was about in Acts 24:15 concerning the unjust, that some of them per chance would saved in Christ's Millennium reign.
This passage does not refer to the unjust, that is those who die without Christ. He is speaking of His elect. I'm sure both you and I will yet learn doctrine in the next life.Isa 29:22-24
22 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Who redeemed Abraham, concerning the house of Jacob, Jacob shall not now be ashamed, neither shall his face now wax pale.
23 But when he seeth his children, the work of Mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify My name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.
24 They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine.
(KJV)
Again, this is speaking of a brother who is in sin. A careful study of Paul's letters will reveal his mind on the matter, that there are two opposing parts to the believer; the flesh and the spirit. Paul exhorts his readers to walk according to the spirit, to put off the old man and put on the new man. The destruction of the flesh is inevitable in all of us, for flesh and blood cannot inherit life. We have this treasure in temporary earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). This passage does not refer to the "unjust" who are raised. The day of the Lord Jesus is most certainly the day of His return. Read Paul's wording to the Thess. church. He does not use this term in regards to the thousand year reign.1 Cor 5:4-5
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
(KJV)
The "day of the Lord Jesus" is about Christ's future Millennium reign. Paul was commending that believer in 1 Cor.5 who was having sexual intercourse with his own mother into the hands of Satan, separating him away from the Church at Corinth.
In 1Cor.15, Paul was speaking entirely about those who are in Christ, in his description of the new body we receive. He said that mortality would put on immortality. This lines up with Rev.20, where we find that for those in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. In John6:50,51, Jesus is specific in stating that it is only those who partake of Him who live forever and not die. Therefore, the unjust (unsaved) will not receive the new immortal body described by Paul in 1Cor.15.No, he covered a little about the resurrection of damnation there in 1 Cor.15 also; he just didn't use that type of terminology. And it's especially discerned in the Greek verses like 1 Cor.15:53-54. Back at verses 45-51 he also hinted at the resurrection of the unjust, simply because the unjust are included with those who have borne the image of the earthy, and those like Adam being made a living soul. In 1 Cor.15:51 he said "all" shall be changed. Since he had covered the idea of all men in the previous part, that must be understood to mean all men, and not just those in Christ Jesus.
Says who? Why start at vs.53? The context makes no mention of two types of resurrections for two types of humans (saved and lost). I am not interested in putting words in Paul's mouth here. In vs. 35, he announces the context... how are the dead raised up , and with what body will they come? And after the answer to that question is expained, the conclusion in vs.54... death is swallowed up in victory.In the Greek of 1 Cor.15:53-54, Paul stated 4 separate Greek words with 4 distinct meanings involving the 'change' of 2 parts of our being, our body of "corruption" to one of "incorruption", and then our soul ("this mortal") must "put on immortality". That's 2 distinct changes required to have Eternal Life through Christ Jesus, one to our flesh and the other to our spirit that's inside our flesh. The resurrection of damnation will only experience the 1st change. One can be in the heavenly "spiritual body" state and still be subject to the "second death", for it means one's soul still has not put on immortality through Christ Jesus. You do understand that the "resurrection of damnation" Jesus declared means the unjust in resurrected type bodies don't you?
If we look at the account of the rich man and Lazarus, we see that before the resurrection, the dead go to two possible fates. In Math.10:28, Jesus speaks of a death of the body but not the soul. The soul lives on. For the unjust, they will be in outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. There will be mental anguish. But God will eventually destroy both body and soul in Gehenna (the Lake of Fire). Those in Hades are not resurrected. The account in Rev.22, makes no reference to resurrected people. That is an assumption.No, it's not the inferred second resurrection. The "resurrection of damnation" happens at the start of Christ's Millennium, at His coming, like He said in John 5:28-29. That's what those in the "outer darkness" is about. See Rev.22:14-15 also about that separation during His future thousand years reign.
Hey, two can use that termonology. Sounds as though what I am saying is a little foreign to you as well. Why assume I have not studied the old testament? Why assume that just because a person disagrees with your conclusions, that they are in a church that does not teach the old testament?Some of this was first given through God's Old Testament prophets, and that's where Apostle Paul was pulling from with a lot of it. The Isaiah 25 Scripture is where Paul got the teaching of death being swallowed up in victory. So surely he assumed that we would go back and study the Old Testament Scriptures about this matter of the resurrection that he covered. How many have done that OT study today? How many Churches do that? What are they teaching instead? So if all this sounds foreign to you, that's why.