Going Up: The Time is Near!

[Rapture and End Times]

Is the Tribulation near? A review of the latest world news is alarming. What is our hope as Christians? What is the timing of the Rapture? Let's explore the pretribulational view.

Going Up: The Time is Near!

 

[ewq1938]

View attachment 31227

Is the Tribulation near? A review of the latest world news is alarming. What is our hope as Christians? What is the timing of the Rapture? Let's explore the pretribulational view.

Going Up: The Time is Near!

Pretrib is not scriptural. Both Paul and Christ place the rapture after the GT is over, post-trib.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(second coming reference): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture ie: a gathering)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.

 

[David in NJ]

View attachment 31227

Is the Tribulation near? A review of the latest world news is alarming. What is our hope as Christians? What is the timing of the Rapture? Let's explore the pretribulational view.

Going Up: The Time is Near!

Excellent question!

God is not the author of confusion and HE told us exactly the time we are to be expecting the LORD's Second Coming.

Matthew ch24
Immediately after the tribulation of those days:
‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’
At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

2 Thessalonians ch2
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His Coming.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour


Revelation 10:7
In the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.

Daniel 12:1-3
At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

 

[Keraz]

Pre-tribulation Dispensationalism, (PTD)

One; causes dissociated or double-minded conduct among its adherents and two, is a poor witness to the lost world because they observe PTDist Christians claiming one thing with one breath and acting is if what they just said isn't actually true. I have had personal conversations with Christian leaders in which they claim with one breath that it is important to have a positively transformative effect on society, culture, politics, etc., when in the next breath they unabashedly stated that none of it will last - tomorrow; all the work Christians have done, all the work they themselves do on behalf of God, all the work they believe they were called to do by God Himself will disappear - all of it will be destroyed in the blink of an eye with the sound of a trumpet. They actually believe God calls them to be victorious and have a transformative effect here and now but God also has decided that they'll all eventually become impotent and powerless in the face of evil because God has willed it to be that way.

Often pastors saying they are glad when things go wrong in societies both local and afar. They actually report with delight that they are glad when the efforts of supposedly God-directed Christians go awry because that failure means the end is close at hand. Consider how many pastors went from vehemently fighting against homosexual marriage to zealous delight in "knowing" the end was close at hand. You can turn on Christian radio any day of the week and throughout the day hear pastors encourage and exhort gospel-involvement here and now and by shows end tell the listeners the world is going to hell in a hand basket any day now and there's nothing they can do because God has decreed it that way.

The world sees and hears all this and they use it as an excuse not to believe. I'm the first to acknowledge that one excuse is as good as another in the mind of the lost. Their hearts are darkened and their thoughts are futile so one self-lie compared to another isn't particularly important when it comes to the need for God to change hearts when we preach. The problem is this: we are not here solely for the purpose of proselytization. We are here to make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and teaching them Jesus' commands. Critics of the critics often ask "Has that happened yet?" as some perverse form of post hoc apologetic and they do so apparently completely oblivious to the fact that the Great Commission hasn't yet happened. The world sees us trying vainly and hypocritically asserting the Great Commission all the while watching as we do so with our next breath saying, "The Great Commission will never be realized. Jesus commanded us to preach but his Father has already commanded destruction. Jesus said we would prevail over the gates of hell but his Father had already determined we'd be an impotent double-minded lot who would need rescuing from our own failure as the defeated enemy, Satan, manages to foment one more radical resistance that will destroy God's creation.
The net result is the abdication of any credibility we might have. Go and search the scriptures for what they say about integrity and the importance of being people of integrity, people who not only mean what they say but people who have integrity in and between thought, word, and deed. Understand that the kind of eschatology PTDers preach lacks both internal and external integrity. Since its inception it has led to...
1) Decade after decade of false prognosticators, including date-setters (all the while saying no one can know the day),
2) Inconsistent preaching wherein victory in Christ is declared, gospel change is promoted societally, culturally, politically, economically, academically, etc,, all while imminent destruction is taught.
3) Inconsistent and often times blatant contradictory, or on occasion foolhardy behavior (like selling one's home) is manifested as a consequence of this inconsistent or contradictory preaching.
4) Division within the body! If there is a removal-from-earth rapture then we amils and post mils and historicists Christians are going be leaving with the PTDers, but that would never be known by the way we're often treated. We're often called names and our salvation is called into question.
5) Poor stewardship of God's creation. If we're going lose this battle in which we're now involved and God will later renew the earth then it really doesn't matter whether or not the planet is trashed. It can be trashed in neglect or with a fiery onslaught of nuclear explosions and lasers from space. The destruction is okay because it's all in God's plan for us to any day now say "Good-bye" to all the work we've done for God in Christ.
6) Hermeneutic hypocrisy. One of the core tenets of PTD hermeneutics is literal reading of prophesy. They boast in this but do not practice it with any consistency.
7) Deceit, either willful or in ignorance. Many a PTDer will argue that this early church father or that early church father asserted PTDism and they'll rely on mentions of "dispensation" to support that claim but the facts of history are clear: early writings on dispensations were always in the context of covenant, not the new meaning Darbyites give the term. This is what they teach and this is what their acolytes learn and in turn preach because their acolytes don't know any better. They think what they've learned is the truth because men of God taught it to them.
8) Compromises in long-held core church doctrines. Again sometimes this occurs willfully and sometimes in ignorance. It doesn't seem to dawn on many PTDers that by separating Israel from the church and arguing a future history God has for them that they must practice before they are converted a works-plus-grace soteriology is being argued. By teaching the radical future destruction of Israel they are anti-Semitic. By teaching the defeat of the church they are over-turning centuries of ecclesiology. By claiming Jesus cannot rule from afar but will rule from afar and then rule here and then rule from afar not only are the inconsistent but their Christology is corrupt. Their god is a god of victory who on one hand directs victory-living while simultaneously requiring defeat and destruction. Understand what this means, folks: Theology, Christology, ecclesiology, and soteriology are each and all fundamentally changed by PTDism and they are either ignorant of these real consequences or teaching it unabashedly leading others to do the same... while the lost world watches. For eighteen centuries the church, even amidst the differences in eschatology, was united in these four doctrinal arenas but PTDism boasts in its differences (heresies, imo) and fervently teaches them to others.
CARM forum.

 

[Benjamin731]

Excellent post, Rapture and End Times! These are my thoughts...

The Rapture and the Second Coming are two events described in the Bible that are often confused with each other. While they share similarities, they differ in their timing and purpose. The Rapture is the event in which Christ will return to take the Church, the body of believers, to heaven before the tribulation period. The Second Coming is the event in which Christ will return to earth with his saints to establish his kingdom and defeat his enemies.

Timing: The Rapture is described as an imminent event that could happen at any moment, while the Second Coming occurs after the tribulation period. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul writes about the Rapture, saying that “the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” In contrast, the Second Coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16 as occurring after the tribulation period, when Christ returns to earth on a white horse with his saints to defeat his enemies.

Purpose: The Rapture is the event in which Christ will take his Church to heaven before the tribulation period, while the Second Coming is the event in which Christ will establish his kingdom on earth and defeat his enemies. In John 14:2-3, Jesus says, “My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” This describes the purpose of the Rapture, which is to take believers to heaven to be with Christ. In contrast, the purpose of the Second Coming is described in Revelation 11:15, which says, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Who is involved: The Rapture involves only believers, while the Second Coming involves both believers and unbelievers. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul writes about the Rapture, saying that “the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” This describes the Rapture as involving only believers. In contrast, the Second Coming is described in Matthew 25:31-46 as involving both believers and unbelievers, with the believers being separated from the unbelievers.

Nature of Christ's return: The Rapture is described as a secret, quiet event, while the Second Coming is described as a visible and dramatic event. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul writes about the Rapture, saying that “the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” This describes the Rapture as a quiet event that will only be noticed by believers. In contrast, the Second Coming is described in Matthew 24:27 as being “as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west.”

The aftermath: The Rapture is followed by the tribulation period, while the Second Coming is followed by the millennial kingdom. In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus describes the events that will occur after the tribulation period, saying that “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” This describes the aftermath of the Second Coming, which includes the millennial kingdom, in which Christ will reign for a thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

The aftermath: The Rapture is followed by the tribulation period

No, the trib period is followed by the rapture as the scripture you posted shows:

, while the Second Coming is followed by the millennial kingdom. In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus describes the events that will occur after the tribulation period, saying that “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” This describes the aftermath of the Second Coming, which includes the millennial kingdom, in which Christ will reign for a thousand years.

That is the rapture as also described here:

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that both speak of the coming of Christ and the rapture which is the gathering of the saints.

 

[Keraz]

That is the rapture as also described here:
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

There is no doubt that both speak of the coming of Christ and the rapture which is the gathering of the saints.

Yes; and both 2 Thess 2:1 and Matthew 24:31, do not mention heaven as the destination. Jesus Returns to the earth
He gathers His faithful people, the ones who have proved their trust in Him, to where He will be In Jerusalem.
Isaiah 57:13b....he who puts his trust in Me, will possess the Land and inherit the holy mountain.

 

[David in NJ]

Excellent post, Rapture and End Times! These are my thoughts...

The Rapture and the Second Coming are two events described in the Bible that are often confused with each other. While they share similarities, they differ in their timing and purpose. The Rapture is the event in which Christ will return to take the Church, the body of believers, to heaven before the tribulation period. The Second Coming is the event in which Christ will return to earth with his saints to establish his kingdom and defeat his enemies.

Timing: The Rapture is described as an imminent event that could happen at any moment, while the Second Coming occurs after the tribulation period. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul writes about the Rapture, saying that “the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” In contrast, the Second Coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16 as occurring after the tribulation period, when Christ returns to earth on a white horse with his saints to defeat his enemies.

Purpose: The Rapture is the event in which Christ will take his Church to heaven before the tribulation period, while the Second Coming is the event in which Christ will establish his kingdom on earth and defeat his enemies. In John 14:2-3, Jesus says, “My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” This describes the purpose of the Rapture, which is to take believers to heaven to be with Christ. In contrast, the purpose of the Second Coming is described in Revelation 11:15, which says, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Who is involved: The Rapture involves only believers, while the Second Coming involves both believers and unbelievers. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul writes about the Rapture, saying that “the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” This describes the Rapture as involving only believers. In contrast, the Second Coming is described in Matthew 25:31-46 as involving both believers and unbelievers, with the believers being separated from the unbelievers.

Nature of Christ's return: The Rapture is described as a secret, quiet event, while the Second Coming is described as a visible and dramatic event. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul writes about the Rapture, saying that “the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” This describes the Rapture as a quiet event that will only be noticed by believers. In contrast, the Second Coming is described in Matthew 24:27 as being “as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west.”

The aftermath: The Rapture is followed by the tribulation period, while the Second Coming is followed by the millennial kingdom. In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus describes the events that will occur after the tribulation period, saying that “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” This describes the aftermath of the Second Coming, which includes the millennial kingdom, in which Christ will reign for a thousand years.

You said: "The Rapture is the event in which Christ will return to take the Church, the body of believers, to heaven before the tribulation period."

Please provide the Scripture that declares this - thank you.

 

[Rapture and End Times]

Excellent post, Rapture and End Times! These are my thoughts...

The Rapture and the Second Coming are two events described in the Bible that are often confused with each other. While they share similarities, they differ in their timing and purpose. The Rapture is the event in which Christ will return to take the Church, the body of believers, to heaven before the tribulation period. The Second Coming is the event in which Christ will return to earth with his saints to establish his kingdom and defeat his enemies.

Timing: The Rapture is described as an imminent event that could happen at any moment, while the Second Coming occurs after the tribulation period. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul writes about the Rapture, saying that “the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” In contrast, the Second Coming is described in Revelation 19:11-16 as occurring after the tribulation period, when Christ returns to earth on a white horse with his saints to defeat his enemies.

Purpose: The Rapture is the event in which Christ will take his Church to heaven before the tribulation period, while the Second Coming is the event in which Christ will establish his kingdom on earth and defeat his enemies. In John 14:2-3, Jesus says, “My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.” This describes the purpose of the Rapture, which is to take believers to heaven to be with Christ. In contrast, the purpose of the Second Coming is described in Revelation 11:15, which says, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Who is involved: The Rapture involves only believers, while the Second Coming involves both believers and unbelievers. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul writes about the Rapture, saying that “the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” This describes the Rapture as involving only believers. In contrast, the Second Coming is described in Matthew 25:31-46 as involving both believers and unbelievers, with the believers being separated from the unbelievers.

Nature of Christ's return: The Rapture is described as a secret, quiet event, while the Second Coming is described as a visible and dramatic event. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, Paul writes about the Rapture, saying that “the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.” This describes the Rapture as a quiet event that will only be noticed by believers. In contrast, the Second Coming is described in Matthew 24:27 as being “as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west.”

The aftermath: The Rapture is followed by the tribulation period, while the Second Coming is followed by the millennial kingdom. In Matthew 24:29-31, Jesus describes the events that will occur after the tribulation period, saying that “the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken. Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” This describes the aftermath of the Second Coming, which includes the millennial kingdom, in which Christ will reign for a thousand years.

Thoughtful comments, Benjamin731. You really have a grasp of the sequence and timing of the Rapture and TRibulation. I would like to use your comments in a future message, with your permission.

 

[David in NJ]

Thoughtful comments, Benjamin731. You really have a grasp of the sequence and timing of the Rapture and TRibulation. I would like to use your comments in a future message, with your permission.

Encouraging falsehood is a very bad thing to do and is a very subtle hatred of God, well disguised as 'good'.

Please review the words of the LORD Jesus Christ and point out where the rapture is a separate event from His Coming and the Resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.

By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Therefore encourage one another with these words.

 

[Benjamin731]

Thoughtful comments, Benjamin731. You really have a grasp of the sequence and timing of the Rapture and TRibulation. I would like to use your comments in a future message, with your permission.

Feel free to use it and edit it as you see fit. Just trying to help!