Is Reincarnation baloney?

[Timtofly]

They didn't recognize him because 'their eyes were prevented from realizing who he was." You might think then that there was a problem with their eyes because it was obviously Jesus walking with them, talking to them about himself after all. But the reason they didn't recognize him was because the one they were walking with simply didn't look like him.

You just contradicted yourself. They were hindered from seeing Jesus with their eyes, because their eyes were the issue. Jesus entered the exact same body with the exact same scars as were on the Cross.

 

[Timtofly]

I do find it funny, or strange maybe- that you insist that Jesus was God's first son and then immediately start talking all about Adam.

Because Scripture calls Jesus the only begotten son of God. Only one means only a first, and no second begotten. Adam was a created Son of God, not a begotten son of God.

In the Greek the word son was applied to Jesus as the supposed son of Joseph, the son of: all the way back to Adam. All those were physical sons of Adam, but Adam was created, not begotten.

begotton: (typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.

 

[Timtofly]

But you are missing the over-arching principle in play. If you really believed that being born is dying (from a spiritual perspective) then you have those alive above- dying and falling, and being born in the flesh-- living a physical life and then dying a physical death, upon which they become alive again in spirit.

We are born into death: Adam's dead corruptible flesh. We won't be redeemed fully until we shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is what it means to only die one time. You claim souls keep dying over and over again in corruptible flesh every time they come back into a different body. If not, then you are not even talking about reincarnation, you just made up something else, and call it reincarnation.

No soul keeps recycling through Adam's dead corruptible flesh over and over again, nor any other physical entity.

 

[Timtofly]

I'm slowly working my way through your posts one by one....

That's how you understand it? Eve has sex (lays) with Adam and she conceives a child. It's born and she says - "I have acquired a man from the Lord."

Do you think she bought one? What you read as "acquired" clearly means "created."

Well Eve certainly did not read any trashy dime store novels, if that is what you think.

God still does some work in creation, especially at each conception. Surely you don't think He leaves it up to the evolutionary process?

Can the clay pot complain, "why did you make me this way?", to the Potter?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Point to one verse claiming a soul is non-existent, even in sheol.

You do not get your ideas from Scripture. Samuel was called up out of sheol. 1 Samuel 28.

Was it actually Samuel or a demonic ruse? Notice that Samuel didn't identify himself. Saul assumed it was Samuel. The woman said that she saw a divine being coming up from the earth. How did she know it was a divine being? I don't know. I've never seen one. (Remember, Satan can appear as an angel of light.) A lot of assumptions were being made that day.

The woman described an old man with a robe. How does she see him unless he has a body? Or did she see a spirit that only appeared to be Samuel?

There are so many questions that I have about that passage. My only point of reference that might possibly inform me of what might be happening is the Transfiguration of Jesus, where he and two disciples witnessed the appearance of Moses and Elijah.

Maybe Samuel didn't actually come out of the grave. Maybe Samuel was seen in his glorified state, just as Moses and Elijah were. That would explain why the woman thinks she saw a "divine" being.

I don't know. All I know is that a "soul" is the unification of body and spirit. Once the body dies, the soul is destroyed, unless, as Jesus asked the Father, "keep my spirit."

 

[Mr E]

The only spirit in both Elijah and John was the Holy Spirit.

Exactly. A spirit set apart and sent to them. Each. Individually, at different times. Same spirit.

It is appointed unto all souls once to live in death and then the judgment. Not this popping in and out of existence of a single soul through multiple death experiences.

One life, one soul. End of life, end of soul.... the spirit returns to God and stands before Him for judgment based on that life/soul experience. The soul is your digital recording device-- your body cam that you've had mounted on you since birth. It has two lenses.

The soul doesn't pop in and out of existences. The soul is the water below. The spirit is the water from above and it comes from the Father.

 

[Mr E]

You just contradicted yourself. They were hindered from seeing Jesus with their eyes, because their eyes were the issue. Jesus entered the exact same body with the exact same scars as were on the Cross.

Not in the least. Scripture says he was in a different form. Argue with that. The problem was they couldn't believe their eyes. Their eyes told them one thing-- this isn't Jesus, but from within, they realized it was him, though in a different form from the way he broke the bread and blessed it. When they recognized this-- he was gone.

 

[Mr E]

Because Scripture calls Jesus the only begotten son of God. Only one means only a first, and no second begotten. Adam was a created Son of God, not a begotten son of God.

In the Greek the word son was applied to Jesus as the supposed son of Joseph, the son of: all the way back to Adam. All those were physical sons of Adam, but Adam was created, not begotten.

begotton: (typically of a man, sometimes of a man and a woman) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.

Not really. Only does mean "only" and only means only one, that much is true. "Begotten" only means 'fathered.'

You've noted yourself the genealogical record of Adam-- the son of God. There must be something you are missing here.

There is.

 

[Mr E]

We are born into death: Adam's dead corruptible flesh. We won't be redeemed fully until we shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh. That is what it means to only die one time. You claim souls keep dying over and over again in corruptible flesh every time they come back into a different body. If not, then you are not even talking about reincarnation, you just made up something else, and call it reincarnation.

No soul keeps recycling through Adam's dead corruptible flesh over and over again, nor any other physical entity.

You are still confusing soul and spirit. Once you straighten that out in your head, then we can talk more. I hate repeating myself.

I hate repeating myself.

 

[Mr E]

Well Eve certainly did not read any trashy dime store novels, if that is what you think.

God still does some work in creation, especially at each conception. Surely you don't think He leaves it up to the evolutionary process?

Can the clay pot complain, "why did you make me this way?", to the Potter?

The clay pot is just that..... a container. It's what's inside that counts.

 

[Mr E]

Did Moses make a copy?

In the Bible Study I just completed, we learned the Book of Moses was passed on orallt for about 5 centuries before being put in written form.

And you think making a copy of the vision is why Moses was never permitted entry into the promised land?

I've been out of this thread for a while. So, I'm not sure how this even relates to reincarntion. Can you connect the dots?

That's interesting.... Are you sure that they didn't mean that it was written in the fifth century BC? I've heard that proposed also, that Ezra was actually the one to have put it in writing. Moses' time was around 14-13th century BC-- what sources suppose that it was all written down in the 9-8th century BC? Not that it matters-- the book of Exodus 17 tells us that God told Moses to write it down.

14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book...

In Exodus 24 he took the book of the covenant and read it in the audience of the people. That would have been tough to do if it hadn't been written yet.

Connecting the dots....

Moses is the one who gave us the story of creation-- our genesis. If Moses is at all unreliable, or biased, or influenced, or mistaken in any way.... what can we say confidently about the story he gave us? If he understood it all in some way, we do not-- what can we conclude about our understanding?

First-- we need to understand incarnation. Then we can look at re-incarnation.

 

[Wrangler]

we learned the Book of Moses was passed on orallt for about 5 centuries before being put in written form.

That's interesting.... Are you sure that they didn't mean that it was written in the fifth century BC?

Yes, the book of Moses was put in written form, meaning written 5 centuries after Moses died. This means Moses did not make a copy, right?

I say put in written form - as opposed to written - because to say something was written at a given time could be taked to mean the story originated at that time, denying the oral tradition. Just to keep things straight.

 

[Waiting on him]

Not in the least. Scripture says he was in a different form. Argue with that. The problem was they couldn't believe their eyes. Their eyes told them one thing-- this isn't Jesus, but from within, they realized it was him, though in a different form from the way he broke the bread and blessed it. When they recognized this-- he was gone.

I’ve always wondered how they couldn’t recognize Jesus. There’s this one little part of scripture in the New Testament that’s always bugged me, it’s the one that speaks of Satan arguing for the body of Moses and this Angel not bringing railing accusations against him.

I never could resolve it. It’s not mentioned in the Old Testament. What we do have is the body of Christ argued for in the new, and they really didn’t want to let that go for fear there’d be some trickery going on. From what I’ve read, those contending for his body didn’t approach this request by making any accusations.

 

[Mr E]

Yes, the book of Moses was put in written form, meaning written 5 centuries after Moses died. This means Moses did not make a copy, right?

I say put in written form - as opposed to written - because to say something was written at a given time could be taked to mean the story originated at that time, denying the oral tradition. Just to keep things straight.

He took the book, and read it to the people.
That's pretty clear.

 

[Mr E]

I’ve always wondered how they couldn’t recognize Jesus. There’s this one little part of scripture in the New Testament that’s always bugged me, it’s the one that speaks of Satan arguing for the body of Moses and this Angel not bringing railing accusations against him.

I never could resolve it. It’s not mentioned in the Old Testament. What we do have is the body of Christ argued for in the new, and they really didn’t want to let that go for fear there’d be some trickery going on. From what I’ve read, those contending for his body didn’t approach this request by making any accusations.

You'd have to first resolve for yourself who Michael is, then also- what the body of Moses is.

While the Christ did take issue with many things written in what he properly called the Law of Moses, he did so by merely pointing out these problems, rather than arguing against them. He would say things like.... "it is written (in the Law)..... but I say....." Or- "Moses gave you (i.e. divorce) but it was not always this way...." Or-- he would simply ignore or willfully break 'the law' in defiance, without any deference to Moses at all.

He didn't dispute the body of Moses.

 

[Waiting on him]

You'd have to first resolve for yourself who Michael is, then also- what the body of Moses is.

While the Christ did take issue with many things written in what he properly called the Law of Moses, he did so by merely pointing out these problems, rather than arguing against them. He would say things like.... "it is written (in the Law)..... but I say....." Or- "Moses gave you (i.e. divorce) but it was not always this way...." Or-- he would simply ignore or willfully break 'the law' in defiance, without any deference to Moses at all.

He didn't dispute the body of Moses.

It’s really fascinating.

Or maybe faceted?

 

[Waiting on him]

I see your view.

 

[Waiting on him]

You'd have to first resolve for yourself who Michael is, then also- what the body of Moses is.

While the Christ did take issue with many things written in what he properly called the Law of Moses, he did so by merely pointing out these problems, rather than arguing against them. He would say things like.... "it is written (in the Law)..... but I say....." Or- "Moses gave you (i.e. divorce) but it was not always this way...." Or-- he would simply ignore or willfully break 'the law' in defiance, without any deference to Moses at all.

He didn't dispute the body of Moses.

They were definitely of Moses flesh.

And I do believe Michael stood up and fought for them.

2 Corinthians 5:16 KJV
[16] Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

It appears what we have is a new creation.

 

[Timtofly]

Was it actually Samuel or a demonic ruse? Notice that Samuel didn't identify himself. Saul assumed it was Samuel. The woman said that she saw a divine being coming up from the earth. How did she know it was a divine being? I don't know. I've never seen one. (Remember, Satan can appear as an angel of light.) A lot of assumptions were being made that day.

The woman described an old man with a robe. How does she see him unless he has a body? Or did she see a spirit that only appeared to be Samuel?

There are so many questions that I have about that passage. My only point of reference that might possibly inform me of what might be happening is the Transfiguration of Jesus, where he and two disciples witnessed the appearance of Moses and Elijah.

Maybe Samuel didn't actually come out of the grave. Maybe Samuel was seen in his glorified state, just as Moses and Elijah were. That would explain why the woman thinks she saw a "divine" being.

I don't know. All I know is that a "soul" is the unification of body and spirit. Once the body dies, the soul is destroyed, unless, as Jesus asked the Father, "keep my spirit."

It was the soul of Samuel. No one has had a spirit since Adam disobeyed, died physically and spiritually.

Adam's soul did not die. Adam lost a physical body and his spirit. They did not die either. The old body was replaced with a body of death. That body would eventually die. The soul is you and you keep living until God says you no longer exist. The dead as souls will all appear before the GWT judgment. We are not told about their body nor spirit in that chapter. They are just the dead and only a soul.

The soul is not a combination of anything, but all you have in death. The soul puts on a body, and the soul puts on a spirit. That is a physical birth and a spiritual restoration.

What was seen was the soul, but we don't know what a soul even looks like, and especially if you don't even think that was Samuel speaking to Saul. You seem to not think Samuel was even there to be seen.

 

[Timtofly]

Exactly. A spirit set apart and sent to them. Each. Individually, at different times. Same spirit.



One life, one soul. End of life, end of soul.... the spirit returns to God and stands before Him for judgment based on that life/soul experience. The soul is your digital recording device-- your body cam that you've had mounted on you since birth. It has two lenses.

The soul doesn't pop in and out of existences. The soul is the water below. The spirit is the water from above and it comes from the Father.

Elijah never had a spirit in him. Elijah was Elijah, just like you are you, a soul.

The soul is all you have. It is the "breadth" that leaves and goes to heaven or sheol.

Having a spirit is not something in you. Having the power of a spirit rest on you. Demonic activity is a possession and control of the soul. Just like the soul submits to the Will of the Holy Spirit, a demon possessed person is controlled by the will of the demon. A spirit gives you the power if you use it. It does not control you. If you don't rely on that power and do things on your own, that power is just wasted.

Your spirt is in God's presence until the Second Coming. Not in you. It is something you put on over the body. The spirit you are thinking of is just the air you breathe. That leaves the body when the body stops breathing, and so does the soul. The soul of the redeemed leaves Adam's dead corruptible flesh for God's permanent incorruptible physical body.