The gods of amil.

[robert derrick]

Scripture please.​

I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. (Ps 139)

David is speaking of his soul. Our substance is our soul, not our body. And being made wonderfully is not mortally, but in the image of the God by His eternal Spirit.

The soul is not the body, and the body is not the soul.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul:

David does not show that. God only created Adam and Eve - once, as a body and a soul. Not billions of Adams and Eves over and over again.​

Billions of souls over and over again. Each one marvellously and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:

Unless of course you think of God as a man, that it is too hard or impossible for Him do.

And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

Souls of men are not mindlessly generated by man's seed, as machine parts on a conveyer belt.

This is where faith in God comes, when we believe His word as written, and not according to our own understanding and boundaries of the carnal mind.

He also wraps each soul of His in the mortal flesh of the mother's womb, even as with Jesus.

For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Each soul and babe in the womb is created and made specially by Christ, as well as personally lightened by Him coming into the world.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

We are born into Adam when we are born of the flesh.​

As you said. Scripture please. I never knew Adam, and never had anything to do with that man from long long ago. Other than when I sinned like him.

No man is born into Adam, any more than any man is born into another man.

We are in the last Adam who rose again from the dead when we are born from above of the Spirit of God.​

Now, this is true.

God saw the souls of all men when He created Adam.​

God sees all things that men ever do in this world, when doing them, and so foreknows all things men will do.

There is no such thing as all men already being created in God's 'eye' or 'mind'.

We can't claim He creates the souls of people over and over before each one is born.​

God does.

I would like to see a scripture which unambiguously tells us that God creates a soul for a fetus before the baby is born.​

Done that for you above.

Maybe God breathes a soul into a fetus, but without breathing eternal life into that soul.​

Souls created in God's eternal image are not mortal.

Neither are angels.

That would be like two times born of the Spirit from above - once before and once after the baby is born into the world.​

Exactly. Now you've got it. Well done. That's why it's called being born again as newborn babes.

The devil neither makes his children in the womb, nor are babes born of the devil from the womb. All men make themselves children of the devil, by lusting and sinning as he did in the beginning.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6.​

Exactly again. good job. Souls are created and born of the eternal Spirit, and flesh is made of natural dust of the earth.

The likeness of man's body is only made different from all other living creatures, which is why Jesus came in the flesh, in likeness of man.

No mortal body of any creature, including man's, is made in the image of God. That also is false.

This is what David wrote:

"Certainly you made my mind and heart;
you wove me together in my mother's womb.
I will give you thanks because your deeds are awesome and amazing.
You knew me thoroughly;
my bones were not hidden from you,
when I was made in secret and sewed together in the depths of the earth. "​

Lousy translation. But it still says the same thing: Christ creates every soul of man, and wraps every soul in the flesh of woman's womb.

"Your eyes saw me when I was inside the womb. All the days ordained for me were recorded in your scroll before one of them came into existence." Ps.139:16.​

This confirms God foreknows all men, because God sees all men in the womb, and their days on earth.

Predeterminism is also false. God doesn't create souls one way or the other, based upon a prechosen path of His for them.

It's talking about the Messiah, Jesus, the last Adam.​

David was talking about David, and revealing the truth about all men, as well as prophesying the coming of the Son in the flesh, just like all men with mortal body, being made of the seed of David, Abraham, Noah, and Adam.

No man, including Jesus is ever born 'into Adam'. Adam's body is still dead. And his soul is either in the presence of the Lord, or in torment of hell.

There are no scriptures that tell us about where the souls in fetus' come from.​

You just quoted it.

The soul of man does not possess eternal life until the Spirit of God breathes His life into man.

The soul of man is created immortal in the image of God, and the soul is not in the body, until the Spirit breathes the soul into the body, even as with Adam.

That is why our bodies are called our temporary mortal house and earthen vessel.

The soul of man is not the Spirit of God.​

True. The soul is the immortal image of God, created by the eternal Spirit.

So IMO we can either believe Paul, or not.​

Dittoes. That doesn't mean we have to believe each other's interpretation of Scripture.

Paul says that the flesh-and-blood mortal body that dies will become the seed of the spiritual, immortal body that rises.​

Exactly true.

It will still be a tangible body, just as Christ's resurrected body was tangible and Thomas could put his finger in Jesus' side, and Jesus could eat fish with His disciples, yet He could walk through walls and appear suddenly far away from where He had just been, and appear in many different physical locations at once.​

Exactly true again.

Adam's body only became mortal because he sinned​

Exactly false. All flesh is as grass: natural and mortal. Not just man's, but all living creatures on earth.

The soul of man dies by sinning against God, like Adam did. The body dies naturally, when the soul leaves the body, just like Adam and Jesus' body did.

and lost access to the tree of life so that he could live forever.​

The soul living forever with God. Or forever separated from God.

Do you teach oblivion of the soul with death of the body? The souls of the unbelievers die with the body?

It has to die and become the seed of a resurrected, immortal body in the way in which Jesus and Paul taught.​

True. That's why Christ made man's body of mortal flesh and blood from the beginning.

Unlike the angels created with immortal spiritual bodies, that cannot die, and so cannot be saved and resurrected unto life, once found sinning against God.

 

[ewq1938]

Soul has three definitions.

1: the word soul is an old English term that could be used in place of the word "person" or "human being". Basically if you had a soul you could be called a soul.

2: The word soul can be a reference to the human body.

3: the word soul is also the spiritual part of human beings (it's moral and emotional aspect), and survives death and will wait for a physical body to inhabit again at the resurrection.


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we have all the parts that comprise a whole person:

body
soul
spirit


The soul here is definition 3.


1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here soul is speaking of all three, body soul and spirit together as a complete person. This would be a soul as in definition 1 and 2.


Human beings have a soul and a spirit and a body. Colloquially a person is a "soul" but a different type of soul than the soul within us.

 

[Zao is life]

Born again of God. As a newborn babe coming into the world, but now with knowledge of having done good and evil.

We need to teach what Scripture says, if we are going to teach the truth of God of Scripture.

And Jesus did not say born again. That's how it's translated into English. He said born from above, anew - and He said it in such a way as to imply that spiritual birth is once and physical birth is once: You are teaching two spiritual births, which is not what Jesus taught, and hence not the truth of scripture. We need to teach what Scripture says, not misquoting either Jesus or His apostles, if we are going to teach the truth of God of Scripture.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above [anothen], he is not able to see the reign of God;'
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;

6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above [anothen];

8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

[*StrongsGreek*]
509 anothen an'-o-then from 507; from above; by analogy, from the first; by implication, anew:--from above, again, from the beginning (very first), the top. see GREEK for 507

How many times are we born of the flesh?

We are born of the flesh once, and of the Spirit once. Your own theology teaches that we are born of the Spirit twice - once when we were born of the flesh, and again a second time when we are born of the Spirit. It's not what scripture teaches.

Adam was created with a body and a soul, and in the New Testament a distinction is made over and over between the body (soma) and the soul. In the Greek manuscripts, the Greek word psychḗ (pronounced Psoo-kay or Sue-kay) is used interchangeably in reference to the life, the mind and the soul. Here are some examples:-

It's used in reference to the mind in Philippians 1:27 and Hebrews 12:3. It's used in reference to the life of humans in Matthew 2:20; Matthew 6:25 and Matthew 10:39. It's used in reference to the souls of humans in Matthew 10:28 and Matthew 12:18.

Genesis 2:7 does not tell you that when the Spirit of God breathed life into Adam he became a living body. It tells you he became a living soul.

He lost His eternal life when he was prevented from eating of the fruit of the tree of life and living forever.

Eternal life is linked to being connected to the source of life, the Spirit and Word of God. Without Him we do not have eternal life.

We are born without eternal life. We are born "dead" because Adam sinned and died, and his death came to all men. Just because the soul continues to exist after physical death does not mean it has eternal life unless there was a prior birth by the Spirit - once. There will be a Lake of Fire, a second death for the souls that do not have eternal life (are not in the Book of Life, do not have life, i.e the life of the Spirit of God) .

The body dies. No one is a sinner until he has committed sin but everyone is born sinful and so will commit sin. Babies are born into the world with a body and a soul. And they have not yet sinned so they are not yet sinners but they are born sinful and this is why they will eventually sin.

Just because the soul continues to exist after separation from its body does not mean that that soul has eternal life without being born of the Spirit of God - which happens once. Your teaching that the soul has eternal life after death regardless of whether or not it had been born once of the Spirit of God, is false.

You have also twisted the meaning of David's words in his psalm to teach that God "creates" human souls in the lowest parts of the earth after conception. Nowhere does scripture teach that. Scripture is silent about how God forms the soul and when God forms the soul in a fetus after conception. I believe it's at the same time of conception but I neither claim to have biblical proof of that (because there is none) nor do I link the soul and the body.

Your theology may not be JW theology but it is some or other cult's theology that you teach when you teach more than one birth by the Spirit of God. So please refrain from falsely accusing me of following any cult when it's not me but you who changes the meaning of scripture to uphold your theology.

 

[Zao is life]

Soul has three definitions.

1: the word soul is an old English term that could be used in place of the word "person" or "human being". Basically if you had a soul you could be called a soul.

2: The word soul can be a reference to the human body.

3: the word soul is also the spiritual part of human beings (it's moral and emotional aspect), and survives death and will wait for a physical body to inhabit again at the resurrection.


1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we have all the parts that comprise a whole person:

body
soul
spirit


The soul here is definition 3.


1Pe_3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Here soul is speaking of all three, body soul and spirit together as a complete person. This would be a soul as in definition 1 and 2.


Human beings have a soul and a spirit and a body. Colloquially a person is a "soul" but a different type of soul than the soul within us.

Yes in the Greek manuscripts, the Greek word psychḗ is used interchangeably in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of a person. But it's different to the word soma (body) and pneuma (spirit).

So although the word psychḗ is used interchangeably in reference to the life, the mind and the soul of a person, nevertheless the New Testament makes a very clear distinction between the body (soma) the mind/life/soul (pysche) and the spirit (pneuma).

 

[Zao is life]

Believe me, i am not trying to change you. You will act and believe as you do. Your MO is avoidance and ad hominem. You cannot address simple arguments and basic Scripture. That is because, the error you promote does not abide biblical scrutiny.

The experience of whoever disagrees with your fantasy of spiritual 'resurrection from a spiritual grave' is this:

It's like talking to a bot in a hall of mirrors who has been programmed to respond with certain long, long long posts (always word-for-word the same posts) containing long, long dissertations, and taught never to check what scripture is teaching when it disagrees with what the bot has been programmed with, but instead to simply repeat the same long dissertations which have already been proved biblically and scripturally false.

On top of this the person who disagrees has to put up with your continual hurling of ad hominems and false accusations of all sorts against whoever disagrees with you, including being falsely accused by you of doing what you do in your hall of mirrors.

 

[robert derrick]

And Jesus did not say born again. That's how it's translated into English.He said born from above, anew -

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The word both times is born again, born anew, and produced again.

As I said, God always proves His own doctrine by all Scriptures taken together.

I did not set you up, but simply believed you knew all Scripture of God, especially having to do with being born of again by the Father, of the word of God.

You are teaching two spiritual births, which is not what Jesus taught, and hence not the truth of scripture.

Jesus declares it by His apostle Peter, that being born from above by Christ, is now being born again on earth, whereas we were first created and born of God by Christ, in the lowest parts of the earth.

So, are we born again or not?

 

[robert derrick]

We are born of the flesh once, and of the Spirit once. Your own theology teaches that we are born of the Spirit twice - once when we were born of the flesh, and again a second time when we are born of the Spirit. It's not what scripture teaches.

Adam was created with a body and a soul, and in the New Testament a distinction is made over and over between the body (soma) and the soul. In the Greek manuscripts, the Greek word psychḗ (pronounced Psoo-kay or Sue-kay) is used interchangeably in reference to the life, the mind and the soul. Here are some examples:-

It's used in reference to the mind in Philippians 1:27 and Hebrews 12:3. It's used in reference to the life of humans in Matthew 2:20; Matthew 6:25 and Matthew 10:39. It's used in reference to the souls of humans in Matthew 10:28 and Matthew 12:18.

Genesis 2:7 does not tell you that when the Spirit of God breathed life into Adam he became a living body. It tells you he became a living soul.

He lost His eternal life when he was prevented from eating of the fruit of the tree of life and living forever.

Eternal life is linked to being connected to the source of life, the Spirit and Word of God. Without Him we do not have eternal life.

We are born without eternal life. We are born "dead" because Adam sinned and died, and his death came to all men. Just because the soul continues to exist after physical death does not mean it has eternal life unless there was a prior birth by the Spirit - once. There will be a Lake of Fire, a second death for the souls that do not have eternal life (are not in the Book of Life, do not have life, i.e the life of the Spirit of God) .

The body dies. No one is a sinner until he has committed sin but everyone is born sinful and so will commit sin. Babies are born into the world with a body and a soul. And they have not yet sinned so they are not yet sinners but they are born sinful and this is why they will eventually sin.

Just because the soul continues to exist after separation from its body does not mean that that soul has eternal life without being born of the Spirit of God - which happens once. Your teaching that the soul has eternal life after death regardless of whether or not it had been born once of the Spirit of God, is false.

You have also twisted the meaning of David's words in his psalm to teach that God "creates" human souls in the lowest parts of the earth after conception. Nowhere does scripture teach that. Scripture is silent about how God forms the soul and when God forms the soul in a fetus after conception. I believe it's at the same time of conception but I neither claim to have biblical proof of that (because there is none) nor do I link the soul and the body.

Your theology may not be JW theology but it is some or other cult's theology that you teach when you teach more than one birth by the Spirit of God. So please refrain from falsely accusing me of following any cult when it's not me but you who changes the meaning of scripture to uphold your theology.

When I offer an honest challenge to something, and get no acknowledgement of it, but only repetition of the same thing, then there's nothing more to say.

If you want to address my challenge to these things, as you tried to do about being born again, then I'd be glad to see it.

 

[Zao is life]

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

The word both times is born again, born anew, and produced again.

As I said, God always proves His own doctrine by all Scriptures taken together.

I did not set you up, but simply believed you knew all Scripture of God, especially having to do with being born of again by the Father, of the word of God.

Jesus declares it by His apostle Peter, that being born from above by Christ, is now being born again on earth, whereas we were first created and born of God by Christ, in the lowest parts of the earth.

So, are we born again or not?

First birth of the flesh. Second birth of the Spirit. Born again (2nd time) not of corruptible seed (the flesh).

Amazing how you read whatever you want into the scriptures. Sign of false teachers always.

We are born of the flesh only once and of the Spirit only once.

 

[Zao is life]

When I offer an honest challenge to something, and get no acknowledgement of it, but only repetition of the same thing, then there's nothing more to say.

If you want to address my challenge to these things, as you tried to do about being born again, then I'd be glad to see it.

Your false teaching doesn't affect those who believe Jesus and the apostles. So you run away.

 

[robert derrick]

First birth of the flesh. Second birth of the Spirit. Born again (2nd time) not of corruptible seed (the flesh).

Amazing how you read whatever you want into the scriptures. Sign of false teachers always.

We are born of the flesh only once and of the Spirit only once.

Repeating ourselves only, in the face of Scriptural challenges made, shows no interest in truth of Scripture.

If you want to address my challenge to these things, as you tried to do about being born again, then I'd be glad to see it.

 

[Gilligan]

There is something very wrong with you. You are basically telling me that my belief that I have spiritually had part in Christ's resurrection is worthless.

It took you this long to figure that out? Nothing not found is Scripture, is worth anything other than the amount of talk it takes to delude ourselves about out.

Show me some real works with your spirit-reign. Topple some evil rulers. Stop some sex trade of kidnapping.

Show exactly what your spirit-rule over the earth and nations is worth.

All believers share in Christ's resurrection in a spiritual sense as the passages I quoted above indicate.

Not me. I'm not a part of your spirit-resurrection fantasy.

Nonsense. I don't teach that at all.

You don't believe you will be reigning with Christ forever? You believe you can fall short of everlasting life with God, by sinning at the end?

No, I don't teach that. I don't believe that it's a guarantee that someone will continue to keep their faith in Christ until they die.

Well, halleluiah brother. You're not as deluded as some, who do say they are now spirit-reigning in heaven, and ever shall be.

And so, there's a rift in the pseudo-mil sect.

I never said that. Why do you want to try to tell me what I believe instead of letting me tell you what I believe?

Fair enough. I saw where you said the dead in Christ are reigning with Christ in heaven, which excluded yourself.

They're not reigning, but they're there and will be certainly be in the first resurrection.

As I said, not all you pseudo-mils agree. There's a virulent OSAS strain you are well distancing yourself from.

I don't believe that my soul is in heaven. You are completely confused.

Amen. I stand corrected. You are not OSAS, that believes in soul-separation into heaven.

You just think you're in a heavenly place spirit-reigning on earth.

The heavenly places we now sit in, is in our hearts with the Lord in our bodies on earth. Not in the air, nor in heaven. Right here still on solid ground.

You're on solid ground enough to live godly, I'm sure, but it's just your doctrine that is in the air.;)

That is not what scripture teaches. You apparently have never read Paul's epistles.

Yes, it is. Scriptural Resurrections are bodily only. Your spirit-only one is not Bible resurrection.

Tell me, does the second death have power over the souls of the dead in Christ in heaven? It doesn't, right? Their fate is already sealed, right?

Amen again. You are now actually reasoning with sense of Scripture. Good job. I agree, of course.

So, that means someone does not have to be bodily resurrected in order for the second death to not have power over them.

True again. Nor does Scripture say the bodily resurrection is the beginning time, of the second death having no power over the righteous soul in the presence of the Lord.

I agree.

So, this means that one can share in the first resurrection and have it so that the second death has no power over them even before they are bodily resurrected.

Yes. Good argument. The dead in Christ, whose souls are at the altar of the Lord, waiting for the resurrection of their bodies, already have no need to fear the second death.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The OSAS segment of your spirit-mil, says they do. I have already exposed them for teaching, that they imagine themselves as already being with the dead in Christ in heaven.

You fortunately, are not so deluded.

Therefore, the first resurrection is still only bodily, however, the dead in Christ have ensured their part in it, by having done those things necessary not to fall unto the end of this life.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Only the dead in Christ have ensured their part in it, but none will have part in it, until the Lord's return to earth.

I would say at this point, that your efforts to believe you now have spiritual part in it, is dangerously close to thinking you are assured of it in the end, as though you were already in at the altar of the Lord's presence in heaven.

I warn you to back off from it,a nd don't go through that door. Satan uses every little deception he can to overthrown the faith of some.

Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

You may not be saying this outright, nor do you believing your are reigning with the departed righteous in heaven, but you are certainly playing in spiritual high places with it.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Just remember this one thing to keep you safe on solid ground: the heavenly place we sit in, that Christ has raised up our souls to, is in our purified heart and spirit, where He now dwells in our bodies on earth.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

We have no seat whatsoever in any higher place, than that which our butts are also sitting in.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It took you this long to figure that out? Nothing not found is Scripture, is worth anything other than the amount of talk it takes to delude ourselves about out.

Show me some real works with your spirit-reign. Topple some evil rulers. Stop some sex trade of kidnapping.

Show exactly what your spirit-rule over the earth and nations is worth.

I don't need to prove myself to you. Paul said "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" and I believe that can be true of all believers. Do you not believe that about yourself?

You don't believe you will be reigning with Christ forever? You believe you can fall short of everlasting life with God, by sinning at the end?

I believe we are warned in scripture about what will happen if we fall away (John 15:1-6, Romans 11:20-21, Hebrews 3:12-16, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27, etc.) and I don't believe we would be warned about that if it isn't possible for it to happen.

Well, halleluiah brother. You're not as deluded as some, who do say they are now spirit-reigning in heaven, and ever shall be.

I haven't seen anywhere hear say that they are in heaven now. Why don't you address those who are actually posting here instead of these people who are not even here to respond?

And so, there's a rift in the pseudo-mil sect.

LOL. Whatever. Are you trying to be a drama queen? Do Premils agree on everything? Of course not. So, why do you expect that of Amils?

Fair enough. I saw where you said the dead in Christ are reigning with Christ in heaven, which excluded yourself.

Their souls are, yes. Why not? John said he saw souls of those who had died. Where would he see their souls? In heaven. Where else?

They're not reigning, but they're there and will be certainly be in the first resurrection.

How do you figure they are not reigning? Why not?

As I said, not all you pseudo-mils agree. There's a virulent OSAS strain you are well distancing yourself from.

Will you just stop with this nonsense? Not all Amils agree on everything just as not all Premils agree on everything. No kidding. Everyone knows this.

Amen. I stand corrected. You are not OSAS, that believes in soul-separation into heaven.

Why do I have to constantly correct you? Do you not feel embarrassed about that? Why don't you actually pay attention to what I believe instead of making all kinds of assumptions and making a fool of yourself? I am not OSAS, but I do believe that when a person dies their soul separates from their body and goes to be with the Lord in heaven.

You just think you're in a heavenly place spirit-reigning on earth.

Yes, figuratively speaking, as Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2:1-6.

The heavenly places we now sit in, is in our hearts with the Lord in our bodies on earth.

Well, duh. No kidding. Did I say otherwise? No, I did not. Why don't you actually read what I say instead of making assumptions about what I believe?

Not in the air, nor in heaven. Right here still on solid ground.

No kidding. Hello? Anything else obvious you'd like to share?

You're on solid ground enough to live godly, I'm sure, but it's just your doctrine that is in the air.

Yet, you are completely unable to refute it. The only thing you can do is misrepresent my doctrine. But, you have done NOTHING to refute what I actually believe.

Yes, it is. Scriptural Resurrections are bodily only. Your spirit-only one is not Bible resurrection.

Again, you did not read what I have said. I do not call it a spiritual resurrection. I believe Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection itself is the first resurrection and we spiritually have part in His resurrection. We don't need to be bodily resurrected in order to share in or have part in His resurrection.

Amen again. You are now actually reasoning with sense of Scripture. Good job. I agree, of course.

I always do. You just don't always read very well. You keep attributing things to me that I don't even believe. That's laziness on your part. You don't even make the effort to find out what I actually believe and you just make assumptions instead.

True again. Nor does Scripture say the bodily resurrection is the beginning time, of the second death having no power over the righteous soul in the presence of the Lord.

At what point is it true that the second death has no power over someone? Certainly, the second death has no power over a believer after they die, right? Their destiny is sealed at that point, right? So, it is at least at a believer's point of death that the second death has no power over them. So, think about that when you read Revelation 20:6. The way Premils like yourself interpret that verse, it implies that one must be bodily resurrected before the second death doesn't have power over them, but that is not the case. The second death already doesn't have power over a believer well before that.

Yes. Good argument. The dead in Christ, whose souls are at the altar of the Lord, waiting for the resurrection of their bodies, already have no need to fear the second death.

Okay, so what does that tell you about the timing of Revelation 20:6 then? When is it the case that the second death has no power over someone? It's already the case for the dead in Christ, right? They don't need to be bodily resurrected for that to be the case, right?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The OSAS segment of your spirit-mil, says they do. I have already exposed them for teaching, that they imagine themselves as already being with the dead in Christ in heaven.

Don't bore me with this. I don't know anyone who claims that they are somehow already in heaven. That is obviously nonsense.

You fortunately, are not so deluded.

Therefore, the first resurrection is still only bodily, however, the dead in Christ have ensured their part in it, by having done those things necessary not to fall unto the end of this life.

But, if this was the case then that would mean the second death not having power over someone would require them to first be bodily resurrected in order for that to be the case. But, that is not the case.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Only the dead in Christ have ensured their part in it, but none will have part in it, until the Lord's return to earth.

Again, the first resurrection is Christ's bodily resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, etc.). We all have part in His resurrection spiritually and when we die our souls go to be with Him in heaven to reign with Him there. That is what John was writing about. He saw souls. It does not say he saw bodies.

I would say at this point, that your efforts to believe you now have spiritual part in it,

Why would I not believe that when in my view I'm talking about having part in Christ's resurrection? Scripture very clearly teaches that believers have part in His resurrection in a spiritual sense when we become spiritually saved.

is dangerously close to thinking you are assured of it in the end, as though you were already in at the altar of the Lord's presence in heaven.

That is not the case. You are being overly dramatic for no good reason here.

I warn you to back off from it,a nd don't go through that door. Satan uses every little deception he can to overthrown the faith of some.

LOL. Nonsense. You have no idea of what you're talking about here. Don't act like you know me. You don't know me at all. I am well aware of the scriptures that warn about falling away and losing your faith. It's something to take seriously and I do. So, I don't need you to warn me about anything.

We have no seat whatsoever in any higher place, than that which our butts are also sitting in.

Not literally, but I have not claimed such a thing, either. And probably no one else has, either. You just have poor reading comprehension skills. It's insane for anyone to think that while they are alive on earth they are also somehow literally in heaven? I don't think anyone has actually claimed that.

 

[Timtofly]

The way Premils like yourself interpret that verse, it implies that one must be bodily resurrected before the second death doesn't have power over them, but that is not the case. The second death already doesn't have power over a believer well before that.

That would be true, except those given a physical resurrection, have been in a state of death. If they always remain in a state of death what is the point of the second death, when they are still stuck in death?

The whole point about having a physical resurrection is that one has been made alive both physically and spiritually. Not that they are just free of the second death, but free of death, period.

At the Rapture, those alive on earth are changed without tasting death, but it is the same blessing of being made alive, to never taste death ever again. The change is physical, as one has already experienced the second birth giving one spiritual life.

It is not just the thought that spiritual birth prevents the second death, which it does, but that one also has a physical body that can never die again.

It is Amil that deny that blessing upon those already physically changed in Paradise. They seem to think a soul is walking around, then a permanent body is walking around seperate from the soul, and the third part, the spirit is also walking around seperate from the soul. You have the three parts of being a son of God in the image of God, all in seperate locations of the firmament. Certainly God's permanent incorruptible physical body is not the one buried on earth somewhere.

While you chide pre-mill for their view of having power over the second death, you deny a physical resurrection for those already physically enjoying physical Paradise.

All pre-mill should also understand those in Paradise have a physical body. But many are in denial just like Amil are. The first resurrection is not chronological. The first resurrection is physical and started at the Cross when the OT redeemed were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. It also happened to Lazarus a few months earlier, as Jesus was already the Resurrection and the Life when Lazarus was called put of his grave. Jesus did not have to wait until resurrection Sunday to be the Resurrection and the Life. Lazarus was blessed and the second death no longer had power over him, nor the first death, as that was already experienced. You yourself deny Lazarus was given the blessing of Revelation 20:6, because you define the first resurrection as something it is not. The second birth is not the first resurrection. The second birth also prevents the second death. Was the second birth available prior to the Cross?

Certainly the second birth does not prevent the first death. As the first death is the only way to shed Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Is it the second birth that makes us alive out of Adam's dead physical state, or the first death? Those prior to the Cross were no longer suffering in Adam's dead flesh, but they had not experienced the first resurrection into God's permanent incorruptible physical body either. The soul does not need to be made alive, it is the body that needs to be made alive.

Now a soul that has not experienced the second birth may be "dead". But certainly not the second death in the LOF. It literally is in no state of death, but trapped in the body of death. At physical death, that soul is then trapped in the torment of sheol, until the GWT judgment. Having only experienced death from conception until the second death. A "dead soul" is figurative meaning without a physical body, but is still alive in sheol.

The term "dead in Christ" is also figurative as they are not in a state of death, and also misleading, because they do have God's permanent incorruptible physical body in Paradise. To claim otherwise is denying 2 Corinthians 5. There are no naked souls walking about in Paradise. They are just no longer in Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Those on earth in Christ are the living dead, hence the word mortal.

 

[Gilligan]

I don't need to prove myself to you. Paul said "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me" and I believe that can be true of all believers. Do you not believe that about yourself?

You can believe and do whatever you want. That doesn't make it through Christ. We can't be ruling with Christ today, because we are either still ruling ourselves, or we are wholly ruled by Him. Christ has no co-heads and co-rulers on earth today.

I believe we are warned in scripture about what will happen if we fall away (John 15:1-6, Romans 11:20-21, Hebrews 3:12-16, Hebrews 6:4-6, Hebrews 10:26-27, etc.) and I don't believe we would be warned about that if it isn't possible for it to happen.

True.

Their souls are, yes. Why not? John said he saw souls of those who had died. Where would he see their souls? In heaven. Where else?

They are there pleading with the Lord, not ruling with Him. No Scripture ever says any man or angel rules with God in heaven, other than the man Christ Jesus.

The resurrected saints only rule with Him on this earth and the new one.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

How do you figure they are not reigning? Why not?

See above. No Scripture says so. If there is no Scripture for it, then it's personal opinion only, which people can think what they want. But false teaching includes giving our opinions as though they were truth of Scripture.

Will you just stop with this nonsense? Not all Amils agree on everything just as not all Premils agree on everything. No kidding. Everyone knows this.

Now I do.

Why do I have to constantly correct you?

One correction, does not make anything constant.

Do you not feel embarrassed about that? Why do I have to constantly correct you? Do you not feel embarrassed about that? Why don't you actually pay attention to what I believe instead of making all kinds of assumptions and making a fool of yourself? I

And so this is how you treat confession of error? No wonder you want to see world genocide.

Yes, figuratively speaking, as Paul wrote about in Ephesians 2:1-6.

There's nothing figurative about Christ and His kingdom dwelling in our hearts.

And if you're ruling with Him, then you're not yet crucified with Him and being wholly ruled by Him.

Again, you did not read what I have said. I do not call it a spiritual resurrection. I believe Jesus Christ's bodily resurrection itself is the first resurrection and we spiritually have part in His resurrection. We don't need to be bodily resurrected in order to share in or have part in His resurrection.

Sophistry.

At what point is it true that the second death has no power over someone? Certainly, the second death has no power over a believer after they die, right? Their destiny is sealed at that point, right? So, it is at least at a believer's point of death that the second death has no power over them. So, think about that when you read Revelation 20:6. The way Premils like yourself interpret that verse, it implies that one must be bodily resurrected before the second death doesn't have power over them, but that is not the case. The second death already doesn't have power over a believer well before that.

I've met people like you, that refuse correction on any point. I haven't met anyone yet, that will not even acknowledge they've already been agreed with. It's called childish gloating. But nonetheless, true is true, and I acknowledge it and thank you for the insight.

But, if this was the case then that would mean the second death not having power over someone would require them to first be bodily resurrected in order for that to be the case. But, that is not the case.

No, actually Peter is letting Christians know that we can ensure we do not fall in this life. And so, the second death having no possible power over us can be before death of the body, by adding to our faith those things necessary not to fall.

That is why Paul was assured of His crown laid up for him, and declare it before death. Peter also was assured of dying in Christ, knowing that he was about to depart this life.

And so, your understanding about be assured of the first resurrection when dying in Christ is good, but doesn't go far enough into this life also.

The error of OSAS is to declare their assurance by only believing it, while still continuing to fall into sinning.

Again, the first resurrection is Christ's bodily resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20, etc.).

True

We all have part in His resurrection spiritually

False. There is no spirit-only resurrection, nor any part in Jesus' bodily resurrection.

For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

We do not yet have any part of being in the likeness of His resurrection. That's prophetic promise, not current 'spirit-only' reality. Figurative is not real, but imaginative only.

You're problem apparently is thinking your figurative imagination has any substance to it: You're not ruling anything in this life, unless have not yet wholly lost your life and rule to Christ yet.

Why would I not believe that when in my view I'm talking about having part in Christ's resurrection? Scripture very clearly teaches that believers have part in His resurrection in a spiritual sense when we become spiritually saved.

You're imagination-only does. All spirit-only is imagination-only, and it's vain. Not all vain imagination is harmful, unless it is false taught for truth of Scripture, as you do.

That is not the case. You are being overly dramatic for no good reason here.

No, there are people on this site that take you're spirit-only stuff to an extreme. I'll not bother cluing you in on it, since you don't care.

Don't act like you know me. You don't know me at all.

I now know you're teaching more perfectly. And by your pompous manner when agreed with it, I don't want to personally know you, unless you first learn humility.

It's insane for anyone to think that while they are alive on earth they are also somehow literally in heaven?

True. Literally or spiritually.

I don't think anyone has actually claimed that.

You don't know what all your fellow pseudo-mils think. I do, because I listen to them. You don't.

 

[Earburner]

2. That is also added to the amil teaching, that we are now reigning in heaven, as well as on earth. That means we are now in heaven reigning with God. This is the heresy of the resurrection is past, that Paul rebukes, because they believed they were now rulers in heaven, while on earth. And no Christian is ever ruling with God in heaven, before or after the resurrection of the dead. The only place Christians reign and rule with Christ is on earth.

You do not comprehend that our resurrection is a two stage process.
First spiritual, by being born again in receiving the forgiveness of sins, AND the gift of their Holy Spirit, which is the vehicle for the gift of eternal life.

Secondly, only upon Jesus' Glorious return in Immortality, are we then made to be in the likeness of His Immortality of body.

Did you know that if you didn't already take part in His resurrection, then YOU ARE NOT a PARTAKER of His divine nature, and therefore Rom. 8:9 and 1 John 5:12-13 APPLIES TO YOU DIRECTLY!

 

[ewq1938]

You do not comprehend that our resurrection is a two stage process.
First spiritual, by being born again in receiving the forgiveness of sins, AND the gift of their Holy Spirit, which is the vehicle for the gift of eternal life.

Wrong. To enter the KOG one needs to be BORN again, and after physically dying we shall be physically resurrected as immortal physical beings. The resurrection is a one stage process not two.

The resurrection in Rev 20, the first of two, is for those already long before born again saints that were beheaded for refusing the MOB etc, and will be physically resurrected into immortal life.

 

[Earburner]

Wrong. To enter the KOG one needs to be BORN again, and after physically dying we shall be physically resurrected as immortal physical beings. The resurrection is a one stage process not two.

The resurrection in Rev 20, the first of two, is for those already long before born again saints that were beheaded for refusing the MOB etc, and will be physically resurrected into immortal life.

If you are not now a PARTAKER of His divine nature, then Rom. 8:9 and 1 John 5:12-13 APPLIES TO YOU DIRECTLY!

 

[ewq1938]

If you are not now a PARTAKER of His divine nature, then Rom. 8:9 and 1 John 5:12-13 APPLIES TO YOU DIRECTLY!

That is part strawman fallacy and part red herring fallacy.

 

[Earburner]

That is part strawman fallacy and part red herring fallacy.

I like your answer. It means you don't understand
Col. 2
[12] Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Or Col. 3
[1] If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
So, is Christ within you, forming within you His NEW creature of Himself, or are you just "winging it" attempting to copy/mimick His divine nature?

 

[ewq1938]

I like your answer. It means you don't understand

No. It means I know you are changing the subject because you cannot dispute what was posted.