Galatians 5

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

Surely your quotation of 1 John 1:7, 8 and going into 1 John 2, is the answer to the Christian's awareness is his ongoing battle against sin, and while we are walking in the light, we are being cleansed continuously from all unrighteousness.

Is not this a place of freedom from the attribution of sinfulness which God must make to one who stops walking in the light as He is in the light?

 

[RichardBurger]

Hi Richard,

Surely your quotation of 1 John 1:7, 8 and going into 1 John 2, is the answer to the Christian's awareness is his ongoing battle against sin, and while we are walking in the light, we are being cleansed continuously from all unrighteousness.

Is not this a place of freedom from the attribution of sinfulness which God must make to one who stops walking in the light as He is in the light?

For the child of God there is no battle against sin. We have already won the battle by placing our faith in the work of God on the cross.

He, Jesus, won that battle for us. Our sins are continuosly covered by the shed blood of Jesus. We are contuinously given the imputed righteousness of God because we place our faith in His work on the cross. --- not because we no longer sin in the flesh.

To stop walking in the light is to turn away from placing faith in what God has done and turn to placing faith in what they do.

This is what most will not see; --- no child of God """""WANTS TO SIN"""""" but they are not blinded by self-righteousness. They know they still sin in the flesh and need Jesus continuously. But the religious just refuse to see it. Perhaps it has something to do with their wanting others to see them as religious sinless people.

When a person, claiming to be a Christain, tells others that they can stop sinning in the flesh they are refusing to look into their own heart and opening their eyes to the sin that is still there and will be until they die.

 

[williemac]

Very tired of this...completely unteachable. Keep your sinful salvation.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

I am the righteousness of God in Christ....still. I have a new man..created according to God in righteousness and true holiness, which Paul exhorts to put on, or to walk accordingly. (Eph.4:24). But because we are told to do this and to put off the old man, we understand that the old man is still with us, in our flesh.

However, the position that this old man hold with God is that he is dead, crucified with Christ. And the position my new man holds is that he is seated with Christ in heavenly places.

Here is the truth: The success we have in beaing fruit in this life, in walking in the spirit, in putting on the new man, has no bearing on our position in Christ. Our position is secure. We have a garuntee..the indweling presence of the Holy Spirit. The work He has begun in us, HE will complete. If the work was already completed, there would be no need for further change. But there is a completion date, yet unknown, when we will all be changed in the resurrection.

In the meantime, as long as any of us has even the mere potential to sin, we are all equally dependant on the mercy and grace offered to us by the death and resurrection of our Lord. Call this a sinful salvation if you will. But you are mistaken if you claim that there is a sinless salvation in this life. Until we are completed, we all have the capacity and potential to fail. There is no such thing as 24/7, 365 day sinless existence in this life. Even a sinful thought is enough to condemn a person under the law. Be thankful and ever humble that we are removed from that curse.

 

[Episkopos]

I am tired of those on forums who think they no longer have sins of the flesh in their lifes when they KNOW they still do. They do not stop sinning themselves but they insist that others must do it. No man on earth has a sinless life while they live in sinful flesh.
*
Your idea that you are here to teach me is very arrogant. The word of God is my teacher, not you. I am here to speak what I believe to be true, not to FORCE my belief on others.
*
You quote Rev 22:11 as if it makes 1 John 1:7-8 void. If you say you no longer have sin in your life you are, according to 1 John 1:7-8, a liar.
*
Telling others that they must do what you can not do is being UNJUST.
*
The children of God are righteous only because God has made them righteous by imputing His righteousness for them. He does this for those that have faith, trust, confidence in His work on the cross. Not because of a person trying to be self righteous by trying not to sin.
*
They are led by the Spirit of God and what they do is between them and God, Not between them and you. - You should remember what God said to Peter in his vision; “what God has called clean let no man call unclean.”
*
God's righteousness is a free gift from God imputed to those that will trust in HIM. It can't be earned by trying to make the sinful flesh sinless.
*
You lay on others what you can not do yourself. That is way beyond being unjust. I think there is a word for that that starts with an H.



God makes the children of God a new creation """IN CHRIST"""" not in the flesh. Man can not make himself a new creation """IN THE FLESH""" by what he does or doesn't do.

Being born by the Spirit is not being born by the flesh. The flesh is born of a fleshly union between flesh. The human spirit can only be born by the Holy Spirit.

Every child of God has forsaken this world when the go to Jesus and trust in Him to save them instead of trusting in what they do in this world to save themselves. The children of God know they are God's children because God has given them the Holy Spirit as a seal for the day they are caught up in the air to be with Jesus. You can't earn this seal. God gives it when a person places ALL their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in His (Jesus') work on the cross for their reconciliation to God.

You should be on a gnosticism forum....not a Christian forum. You really would be accepted there.
http://gnosticteachi...ions/index.html

The English term schizophrenia comes from two Greek words that mean "split mind."


The course of schizophrenia in adults can be divided into three phases or stages. In the acute phase, the patient has an overt loss of contact with reality.

Gnosticism is really a spiritual schizophrenia.

 

[RichardBurger]

You should be on a gnosticism forum....not a Christian forum. You really would be accepted there.
http://gnosticteachi...ions/index.html

The English term schizophrenia comes from two Greek words that mean "split mind."


The course of schizophrenia in adults can be divided into three phases or stages. In the acute phase, the patient has an overt loss of contact with reality.

Gnosticism is really a spiritual schizophrenia.

Just because you have labeled what I believe as gnostic does not make it true. Your label is just venom that you wish to pour out on me and that is not what a true child of God would do. Your attitude is thae same as all those that persecuted the people of God down thru the centuries and you really think I should believe and do as you do. Fat chance!

I am the righteousness of God in Christ....still. I have a new man..created according to God in righteousness and true holiness, which Paul exhorts to put on, or to walk accordingly. (Eph.4:24). But because we are told to do this and to put off the old man, we understand that the old man is still with us, in our flesh.

However, the position that this old man hold with God is that he is dead, crucified with Christ. And the position my new man holds is that he is seated with Christ in heavenly places.

Here is the truth: The success we have in beaing fruit in this life, in walking in the spirit, in putting on the new man, has no bearing on our position in Christ. Our position is secure. We have a garuntee..the indweling presence of the Holy Spirit. The work He has begun in us, HE will complete. If the work was already completed, there would be no need for further change. But there is a completion date, yet unknown, when we will all be changed in the resurrection.

In the meantime, as long as any of us has even the mere potential to sin, we are all equally dependant on the mercy and grace offered to us by the death and resurrection of our Lord. Call this a sinful salvation if you will. But you are mistaken if you claim that there is a sinless salvation in this life. Until we are completed, we all have the capacity and potential to fail. There is no such thing as 24/7, 365 day sinless existence in this life. Even a sinful thought is enough to condemn a person under the law. Be thankful and ever humble that we are removed from that curse.

I like what you have said except you are not specific on how a person walks in Christ. Many will claim walking in Christ means we are to stop sinning and earn that right. The religious think it means to not sin but according to Paul's gospel it is to walk in faith trusting in God's work on the cross.

 

[dragonfly]

The religious think it means to not sin but according to Paul's gospel it is to walk in faith trusting in God's work on the cross.

God's work on the cross enables us to come to Him in the first place, and be forgiven up to that day, but after that, having come from darkness into the light, we have to continue in the light. What John has written in 1 John 1:7 leads me to believe that I am being cleansed continuously by the blood of Jesus Christ. This doesn't mean that we are not to purify ourselves as He is pure, by making conscious choices about how to change through mortification of the flesh (with the Holy Spirit's help), renewing of the mind, ceasing from attitudes and behaviours which are ungodly.

'Sin' is very specific. It is defined by everything covered in the Mosaic Law and more which Jesus specified. I don't believe I'm in sin by my very existence, although the flesh presents a constant aggravation to the Holy Spirit. There are times we're aware of a choice to do or to not do, and at the same time aware of the Holy Spirit's direction. If we obey Him, will keep us from falling. God sees us in Christ. There is a large difference between the condemnation brought by the Adversary, and proper conviction of sin which should lead to repentance and a permanent change in our attitude to a particular situation or choice in which we are tempted to please ourselves rather than God. It is His grace which enables us to do the right thing.

The apostle John teaches that Christians can not sin, and I believe that. This doesn't mean there aren't times when I feel repentant towards God for a new awareness of a shortcoming, an attitude, an action, but I trust that through bringing this immediately to the Lord, I remain in fellowship with Him.

 

[RichardBurger]

God's work on the cross enables us to come to Him in the first place, and be forgiven up to that day, but after that, having come from darkness into the light, we have to continue in the light.

This is as far as I got with what you wrote. You believe in progresive salvation that you have to work for by not sinning. I don't and have no interest in listening to that tired old gospel of works.

I believe I have been washed, santified and justified by the Spirit of my God just as Paul said I am.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

The above does not apply to the child of God because =

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

Even though my sinful flesh still sins I am washed, sanctified, justified by the Spirit of God.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

We are saying the same thing. I could have quoted 1 John 1:7. That is my experience. What you wrote in the post before last -

Many will claim walking in Christ means we are to stop sinning and earn that right.

Is not what I've expressed.

I said I came to the Lord first, and then I stopped sinning to the extent that my sin had been revealed to me. I am no longer in bondage to sin.

Before that, you said at the end of your secondlast post -

When a person, claiming to be a Christain, tells others that they can stop sinning in the flesh they are refusing to look into their own heart and opening their eyes to the sin that is still there and will be until they die.

You may know from experience that there is always another victory to be had in Christ, but we are not told to look at ourselves, we're told to look to the Lord. If the Lord does not bring sin to my attention, I am to go on my way rejoicing. When I'm convicted of sin I am to repent and change.

 

[Episkopos]

Just because you have labeled what I believe as gnostic does not make it true. Your label is just venom that you wish to pour out on me and that is not what a true child of God would do. Your attitude is thae same as all those that persecuted the people of God down thru the centuries and you really think I should believe and do as you do. Fat chance!



I like what you have said except you are not specific on how a person walks in Christ. Many will claim walking in Christ means we are to stop sinning and earn that right. The religious think it means to not sin but according to Paul's gospel it is to walk in faith trusting in God's work on the cross.

As in...I was trusting in my own strength in God's work on the cross when I stole this...so it isn't sin to me!!! Wanna join my religion

Hi Richard,

We are saying the same thing. I could have quoted 1 John 1:7. That is my experience. What you wrote in the post before last -



Is not what I've expressed.

I said I came to the Lord first, and then I stopped sinning to the extent that my sin had been revealed to me. I am no longer in bondage to sin.

Before that, you said at the end of your secondlast post -



You may know from experience that there is always another victory to be had in Christ, but we are not told to look at ourselves, we're told to look to the Lord. If the Lord does not bring sin to my attention, I am to go on my way rejoicing. When I'm convicted of sin I am to repent and change.

Now, it's only sin if you know it is??? Wow! So much for walking in the Spirit of God!!! You'd think God would know what sin is?

Just because you have labeled what I believe as gnostic does not make it true. Your label is just venom that you wish to pour out on me and that is not what a true child of God would do. Your attitude is thae same as all those that persecuted the people of God down thru the centuries and you really think I should believe and do as you do. Fat chance!

FYI some of the books of the NT were specifically written against the heresy you espouse. Gnosticism was a plague in the early church that stemmed from a human reasoning that physical things were evil...especially the body. ANYONE who promotes this duality is teaching a false gospel. Our bodies are to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. One does not make a temple out of something evil.

The human desire to be saved through a salvation knowledge while denying responsibility for actions done in the body is to be confronted and refuted. As Paul told Timothy...rebuke reprove and teach. So as long as I am able to I will expose the lies you teach here.

 

[dragonfly]

Hello Episkopos,

Now, it's only sin if you know it is??? Wow! So much for walking in the Spirit of God!!! You'd think God would know what sin is?

Does this comment mean you didn't understand my post?

 

[Episkopos]

I am tired of those on forums who think they no longer have sins of the flesh in their lifes when they KNOW they still do. They do not stop sinning themselves but they insist that others must do it. No man on earth has a sinless life while they live in sinful flesh.
*
Your idea that you are here to teach me is very arrogant. The word of God is my teacher, not you. I am here to speak what I believe to be true, not to FORCE my belief on others.
*
You quote Rev 22:11 as if it makes 1 John 1:7-8 void. If you say you no longer have sin in your life you are, according to 1 John 1:7-8, a liar.
*
Telling others that they must do what you can not do is being UNJUST.
*
The children of God are righteous only because God has made them righteous by imputing His righteousness for them. He does this for those that have faith, trust, confidence in His work on the cross. Not because of a person trying to be self righteous by trying not to sin.
*
They are led by the Spirit of God and what they do is between them and God, Not between them and you. - You should remember what God said to Peter in his vision; “what God has called clean let no man call unclean.”
*
God's righteousness is a free gift from God imputed to those that will trust in HIM. It can't be earned by trying to make the sinful flesh sinless.
*
You lay on others what you can not do yourself. That is way beyond being unjust. I think there is a word for that that starts with an H.



God makes the children of God a new creation """IN CHRIST"""" not in the flesh. Man can not make himself a new creation """IN THE FLESH""" by what he does or doesn't do.

Being born by the Spirit is not being born by the flesh. The flesh is born of a fleshly union between flesh. The human spirit can only be born by the Holy Spirit.

Every child of God has forsaken this world when the go to Jesus and trust in Him to save them instead of trusting in what they do in this world to save themselves. The children of God know they are God's children because God has given them the Holy Spirit as a seal for the day they are caught up in the air to be with Jesus. You can't earn this seal. God gives it when a person places ALL their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in His (Jesus') work on the cross for their reconciliation to God.

I am teaching what God has made available to men though faith. There is a new creation that is not limited by the weakness of the flesh...believe and be saved!!!

Hello Episkopos,



Does this comment mean you didn't understand my post?

Does this answer mean you do not understand walking in the divne light of Christ and His resurrection life? In that place we walk in perfect holiness. Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[williemac]

As in...I was trusting in my own strength in God's work on the cross when I stole this...so it isn't sin to me!!! Wanna join my religion

I doubt any believer who resorts to stealing has any dilusion that it isn't a sin. But why use such an obvious example? What about a man who looks at a female lustfully? What about those who at the end of the day have regrets about certain words or actions done, but also have thankfulness and a deep desire to improve? Or do we just think the worst of everyone else but ourselves?

FYI some of the books of the NT were specifically written against the heresy you espouse. Gnosticism was a plague in the early church that stemmed from a human reasoning that physical things were evil...especially the body. ANYONE who promotes this duality is teaching a false gospel. Our bodies are to be the temple of the Holy Spirit. One does not make a temple out of something evil.

Oddly enough, the very author that called our bodies a temple of the Holy Spirit also taught duality of natures within the human being. What do you suppose he meant by "the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh" (Gal.5:17)?
What do you suppose he meant in exhorting them to put off the old man and put on the new man (Eph.4:22-24)? What do you suppose he had in mind in Rom.7:15-25 ?

The human desire to be saved through a salvation knowledge while denying responsibility for actions done in the body is to be confronted and refuted. As Paul told Timothy...rebuke reprove and teach. So as long as I am able to I will expose the lies you teach here.

I am not opposed to exposing and reproving, or even rebuking the sinful deeds of a brother. The bible assures us that those whom Jesus loves, He rebukes and chastens. I would guess that most studied believers are aware of this. But if we are talking about the wages of sin being (eternal) death, then I can assure you that this particular consequence has been solved and removed from our fate. This is the vastness and deepness of the love of our heavenly Father, who allowed His Son to (willingly) take our sins upon His body once for all. Surely you also see these things.

 

[Episkopos]

I doubt any believer who resorts to stealing has any dilusion that it isn't a sin. But why use such an obvious example? What about a man who looks at a female lustfully? What about those who at the end of the day have regrets about certain words or actions done, but also have thankfulness and a deep desire to improve? Or do we just think the worst of everyone else but ourselves?
Oddly enough, the very author that called our bodies a temple of the Holy Spirit also taught duality of natures within the human being. What do you suppose he meant by "the flesh lusts against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh" (Gal.5:17)?
What do you suppose he meant in exhorting them to put off the old man and put on the new man (Eph.4:22-24)? What do you suppose he had in mind in Rom.7:15-25 ? I am not opposed to exposing and reproving, or even rebuking the sinful deeds of a brother. The bible assures us that those whom Jesus loves, He rebukes and chastens. I would guess that most studied believers are aware of this. But if we are talking about the wages of sin being (eternal) death, then I can assure you that this particular consequence has been solved and removed from our fate. This is the vastness and deepness of the love of our heavenly Father, who allowed His Son to (willingly) take our sins upon His body once for all. Surely you also see these things.

When a person receives the truth in all humility...God is very merciful. When a person twists the truth in order to negate the power of the gospel...then that one is condemned. Notice the goodness and severity of God.

Rom_11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

Have you ever read this in your Bible?

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,
we have fellowship one with another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son
cleanseth us from all sin.

Please explain to me if it differs from this

In that place we walk in perfect holiness. Be ye perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.

and if it does differ, how does it differ?



Many thanks,

 

[williemac]

When a person receives the truth in all humility...God is very merciful. When a person twists the truth in order to negate the power of the gospel...then that one is condemned. Notice the goodness and severity of God.

Rom_11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Thank you for noting this passage. If I may continue to the very next verse, here it is..." And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." This of course follows on the heels of vs. 20. Here what it says..." ...because of unbelief they (branches) were broken off."

I dare say that if one elects to quote a verse out of its context, then one's interpretation might be challenged. This context is not about being broken off or cut off because of sin, it is about being cut off because of unbelief. Therefore to continue in His goodness, one must continue in faith, as the context bears out. The severity of God falls on those who refuse to accept or believe in His goodness. He saves us because He is good, not because we are. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. He knows full well what we are made of. And reconciled us while we were yet sinners. To refuse this truth is to negate the power of the gospel. The gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes (Rom.1:16) (see also Rom.10:9,10) God is good. So just whom is doing the twisting?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi williemac,

You made a good case about unbelief in your last post. I just want to point out that for those who refuse to believe, it is sin.

But if we are talking about the wages of sin being (eternal) death, then I can assure you that this particular consequence has been solved and removed from our fate. This is the vastness and deepness of the love of our heavenly Father, who allowed His Son to (willingly) take our sins upon His body once for all. Surely you also see these things.

There is a strong case to be made for the New Testament urgency about victory over sin in the believer's life, as a demonstration of the relationship into which the Lord has brought us.

I know Christ 'gives' us the victory, but we do have to walk in it in reality. The righteousness of Christ cannot be imputed to us indefinitely. Believers need to be experiencing a changed relationship with sin through repentance initially, and walking in the Spirit thereafter.

What say you?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

Have you ever read this in your Bible?

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light,
we have fellowship one with another,
and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son
cleanseth us from all sin.

Please explain to me if it differs from this



and if it does differ, how does it differ?



Many thanks,

I am testifying to the very same thing in that quote. We can walk in an actual light...a light we can see as our eyes are opened to the kingdom of God. The presence of God is full of light. True Christian fellowship is in that light where we are walking together IN Christ. The sheer love and holiness in that presence causes the brethren to change the world simply by their presence.

Thank you for noting this passage. If I may continue to the very next verse, here it is..." And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." This of course follows on the heels of vs. 20. Here what it says..." ...because of unbelief they (branches) were broken off."

I dare say that if one elects to quote a verse out of its context, then one's interpretation might be challenged. This context is not about being broken off or cut off because of sin, it is about being cut off because of unbelief. Therefore to continue in His goodness, one must continue in faith, as the context bears out. The severity of God falls on those who refuse to accept or believe in His goodness. He saves us because He is good, not because we are. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. He knows full well what we are made of. And reconciled us while we were yet sinners. To refuse this truth is to negate the power of the gospel. The gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes (Rom.1:16) (see also Rom.10:9,10) God is good. So just whom is doing the twisting?

Are you still in unbelief? Do you walk as Jesus walked ? Do you believe in the power of grace? Do you believe you can overcome sin while in the body through abiding in Christ? If not then you are in more unbelief than the Jews who were cut off were in. They testified to the power of God...then forgot to apply it to the rest of their lives. But most believers today know nothing of God at all let alone believe that God can do ALL things.

A human belief is not what God is interested in....He wants true faith that trusts that because God said it it will be done...even if it sounds impossible. You can tell very quickly if a person has any faith at all. Just ask..." can men stop sinning through grace???" If they reply that we can't then there is no faith at all.

 

[dragonfly]

Hello Episkopos,

I am testifying to the very same thing in that quote. We can walk in an actual light...a light we can see as our eyes are opened to the kingdom of God. The presence of God is full of light. True Christian fellowship is in that light where we are walking together IN Christ. The sheer love and holiness in that presence causes the brethren to change the world simply by their presence.

Its effect is revelation. That's how I experience it. (Ephesians 5:13) And choosing to walk in His light is vital.

I believe what you are trying to explain is also what I am trying to explain. There may be others who also 'see' it, but there is a lot of mud in the water around the words 'grace' and 'works'. It's difficult to know whether those who seem not to 'see' the difference between righteousness through keeping the law and the righteousness of Christ enabling us to keep His (royal) law - and therefore do good works - have ever read

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. .

However, that doesn't give those who see, something to boast about.

2 Timothy 2:24 - 26
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.




Hello Richard,

You said some interesting things in posts further up the page. It's taken me a few of them to grasp the points you've made. But, I have to disagree with the way you've used the scriptures to which you've referred - if I have understood you correctly.

First let me say again, that neither I or Episkopos are saying we are saved by works. We are talking about being a new creation in Christ, alive from the dead (Romans 6:3, 4, 6, 7), walking in newness of life, now. We are not saying that the flesh is not corrupt, but we are saying that the flesh no longer controls our mind and our behaviour. This is consistent with Paul's teaching in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Clearly, Paul is saying that they don't any more 'fulfil the desires of the flesh and of the mind', because they have believed in Christ.

You said in post #93

Note: If we are walking with our faith in Jesus’ work on the cross then we have crucified the flesh because we no longer place our faith in what it can do but in what God has already done.

Many will say that verses 19-21 condemns everyone that commits those sins. But if that is true then it contradicts verses 1-18 which clearly show that the believer is not under the law of works.

Yes, if the flesh is crufied with Christ in your experience, you are no longer sinning in an active way, unable to control yourself (Gal 5:23)

Paul was writing to a church. He had already chided them for being tempted to go back to law-keeping for their righteousness. Clearly, he is not saying they can sin now that they are saved.

He is saying that the practice of these sins is contrary to walking 'in the Spirit'. Clearly he has just said: v 16: Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Could this be any more clear and simple? We are not to fulfil the lust of the flesh. We are to 'walk in the Spirit'. Paul is teaching that not only is this possible, but it is essential for the believer to understand and obey this truth.

(Just as an aside, think about Paul's own testimony - such a transformation from 'breathing out threatenings and slaughter' to cherishing the churches as a nurse - and being sent to preach to the Gentiles, whom formerly, he had believed were totally excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. This man had had such a change of heart that his former behaviour no longer identified him as a danger to believers, but rather as their example. WOW!)

Now in post #107, you said:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

The above does not apply to the child of God because =

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
NKJV

Even though my sinful flesh still sins I am washed, sanctified, justified by the Spirit of God.

Again let me draw to your attention that Paul was writing to a church. Paul was talking to those who had stopped doing the sins listed in vv 9 and 10 - because they had been washed, sanctified and justified by the spirit of God. He has spoken about how they have changed already, in his opening remarks of the whole letter:

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours ... 7b waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The term 'saint', meaning 'one who has been sanctified' takes from the vessels in the Temple, which had been 'set apart' for God's purposes. They were not used for anything else, especially not a use which would defile them. Paul uses similar terminology in Romans 9.


Please look at these verses, now, from Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. This is the gospel!

Prior to this exhortation Paul wrote: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ;


Now to 2 Peter 1: '... to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

'Having escaped' = past tense. Christians have already escaped from the sin through the death of Christ, if they have embraced His death.

From reading your posts, this appears not to have been what you've been taught, but, I don't think can you deny it's New Testament doctrine.


Now to Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. mortify = put to death. Note: we do it through the Spirit.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


God does not lead His children to sin, but rather, to victory over sin. This is the gospel.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?



Richard, do you believe the apostle Paul was mistaken? You seem to have been stating the opposite of Paul - that sin is inevitable.

 

[RichardBurger]

Hello Richard,

You said some interesting things in posts further up the page. It's taken me a few of them to grasp the points you've made. But, I have to disagree with the way you've used the scriptures to which you've referred - if I have understood you correctly.

First let me say again, that neither I or Episkopos are saying we are saved by works. We are talking about being a new creation in Christ, alive from the dead (Romans 6:3, 4, 6, 7), walking in newness of life, now. We are not saying that the flesh is not corrupt, but we are saying that the flesh no longer controls our mind and our behaviour. This is consistent with Paul's teaching in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Clearly, Paul is saying that they don't any more 'fulfil the desires of the flesh and of the mind', because they have believed in Christ.


God does not lead His children to sin, but rather, to victory over sin. This is the gospel.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?



Richard, do you believe the apostle Paul was mistaken? You seem to have been stating the opposite of Paul - that sin is inevitable.

Paul said that the flesh follows the law of Sin in Romans 7: He also says that the sinful flesh can not make a person sinless in the flesh Gal. 3. Don't you believe him?

The religious can not see beyond sins in the flesh when the sin that separated us from God is the sin of unbelief. In the garden the sin that Eve committed was not sins of flesh, but the sin of believing Satan AND NOT GOD. Today this is still the sin that separate men from God. They do not believe that Jesus' shed blood reconciles man to God unless the sinful flesh can stop sinning in the flesh. That put mankind back under the law of Moses and ignores grace.

 

[Episkopos]

Hello Episkopos,




Its effect is revelation. That's how I experience it. (Ephesians 5:13) And choosing to walk in His light is vital.

I believe what you are trying to explain is also what I am trying to explain. There may be others who also 'see' it, but there is a lot of mud in the water around the words 'grace' and 'works'. It's difficult to know whether those who seem not to 'see' the difference between righteousness through keeping the law and the righteousness of Christ enabling us to keep His (royal) law - and therefore do good works - have ever read

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. .

However, that doesn't give those who see, something to boast about.

2 Timothy 2:24 - 26
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.




Hello Richard,

You said some interesting things in posts further up the page. It's taken me a few of them to grasp the points you've made. But, I have to disagree with the way you've used the scriptures to which you've referred - if I have understood you correctly.

First let me say again, that neither I or Episkopos are saying we are saved by works. We are talking about being a new creation in Christ, alive from the dead (Romans 6:3, 4, 6, 7), walking in newness of life, now. We are not saying that the flesh is not corrupt, but we are saying that the flesh no longer controls our mind and our behaviour. This is consistent with Paul's teaching in Ephesians:

Ephesians 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Clearly, Paul is saying that they don't any more 'fulfil the desires of the flesh and of the mind', because they have believed in Christ.

You said in post #93



Yes, if the flesh is crufied with Christ in your experience, you are no longer sinning in an active way, unable to control yourself (Gal 5:23)

Paul was writing to a church. He had already chided them for being tempted to go back to law-keeping for their righteousness. Clearly, he is not saying they can sin now that they are saved.

He is saying that the practice of these sins is contrary to walking 'in the Spirit'. Clearly he has just said: v 16: Walk in the Spirit and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. Could this be any more clear and simple? We are not to fulfil the lust of the flesh. We are to 'walk in the Spirit'. Paul is teaching that not only is this possible, but it is essential for the believer to understand and obey this truth.

(Just as an aside, think about Paul's own testimony - such a transformation from 'breathing out threatenings and slaughter' to cherishing the churches as a nurse - and being sent to preach to the Gentiles, whom formerly, he had believed were totally excluded from the commonwealth of Israel. This man had had such a change of heart that his former behaviour no longer identified him as a danger to believers, but rather as their example. WOW!)

Now in post #107, you said:



Again let me draw to your attention that Paul was writing to a church. Paul was talking to those who had stopped doing the sins listed in vv 9 and 10 - because they had been washed, sanctified and justified by the spirit of God. He has spoken about how they have changed already, in his opening remarks of the whole letter:

1 Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours ... 7b waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, [that ye may be] blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The term 'saint', meaning 'one who has been sanctified' takes from the vessels in the Temple, which had been 'set apart' for God's purposes. They were not used for anything else, especially not a use which would defile them. Paul uses similar terminology in Romans 9.


Please look at these verses, now, from Ephesians 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. This is the gospel!

Prior to this exhortation Paul wrote: 17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ;


Now to 2 Peter 1: '... to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that [pertain] unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

'Having escaped' = past tense. Christians have already escaped from the sin through the death of Christ, if they have embraced His death.

From reading your posts, this appears not to have been what you've been taught, but, I don't think can you deny it's New Testament doctrine.


Now to Romans 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die:
but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. mortify = put to death. Note: we do it through the Spirit.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


God does not lead His children to sin, but rather, to victory over sin. This is the gospel.

Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?



Richard, do you believe the apostle Paul was mistaken? You seem to have been stating the opposite of Paul - that sin is inevitable.

Amen brother!!!

Paul said that the flesh follows the law of Sin in Romans 7: He also says that the sinful flesh can not make a person sinless in the flesh Gal. 3. Don't you believe him?

The religious can not see beyond sins in the flesh when the sin that separated us from God is the sin of unbelief. In the garden the sin that Eve committed was not sins of flesh, but the sin of believing Satan AND NOT GOD. Today this is still the sin that separate men from God. They do not believe that Jesus' shed blood reconciles man to God unless the sinful flesh can stop sinning in the flesh. That put mankind back under the law of Moses and ignores grace.

This is a human reasoning that negates the power of Christ and the grace that empowers us to be holy.