Tradition Versus Scripture

[Jim B]

Where is the evidence for all this? Jesus who is God wanted his story documented. if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying that God sent his son at just the right time and Jesus picked his eyewitnesses who couldn’t write, so hundreds of years later people became smart enough to document the Gospels. If this is what you are claiming, it sounds ridiculous to meand I’d love to see the evidence.

John couldn't write? What about his gospel, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation?

I would mention Peter also, but thre is doubt about who actually authored 1 Peter and 2 Peter,

 

[Jim B]

Well, that's a good question, and the answer has to do with common sense, I think. It has only been in the last 100 years or so that universal literacy was achievable in the world. Before that, the vast, vast majority of humanity was illiterate. If Jesus was going to make His Church and salvation dependent upon being literate, wouldn't He have at least said so once? Yet, we see nothing of the sort in the Gospels or Oral Tradition, or the teachings of the Early Church Fathers. What Jesus did do, however, was command the Apostles (and by extension, their successors), to go forth and preach the Good News (Gospel).

This obsession with having to reinvent the theological wheel oneself through reading the Bible has lead to a mess. There are literally thousands of different/contradictory denominations, all based on personal interpretation of the Bible, with all who personally interpret the Bible claiming the be led by the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit, though, is not the spirit of contradiction or confusion! The Baptists, for exampe, claim that Scripture says that infant baptism is invalid. Lutherans (and, I think some others like Episcopalians), claim that it is valid. All read the Bible and claim to be led by the same Holy Spirit. Not possible.

Do you read the Bible? If so, why?

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

We know from reading the early Church Fathers that doctrine and practice changed over time.



Luke wasn’t an eyewitness, was he? He inquired about the events he wrote about in his Gospel (Luke 1:1-4).

The early church fathers were not with Jesus nor the disciples so they were not eyewitnesses. In investigation work, we throw out their testimony as unreliable because it does not have a documented chain of custody. You may be right about Luke. Unfortunately we do not know much at all about Matthew, Mark, and Luke and this makes the claim of them as authors CATS.

 

[Matthias]

The early church fathers were not with Jesus nor the disciples so they were not eyewitnesses. In investigation work, we throw out their testimony as unreliable because it does not have a documented chain of custody. You may be right about Luke. Unfortunately we do not know much at all about Matthew, Mark, and Luke and this makes the claim of them as authors CATS.

I don’t throw out their testimony as unreliable. I take it into consideration. They wrote about historical events which predated them - some by a few years, some by hundreds of years - and they wrote about what was happening in the church - local and regional - in their lifetimes.

To take only one, Polycarp was a disciple of John.

That church doctrine and practice evolved over time is documented in their writings.

 

[Nancy]

The early church fathers were not with Jesus nor the disciples so they were not eyewitnesses. In investigation work, we throw out their testimony as unreliable because it does not have a documented chain of custody. You may be right about Luke. Unfortunately we do not know much at all about Matthew, Mark, and Luke and this makes the claim of them as authors CATS.

Polycarp was a disciple of Johns. Just sayin

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

The Worst 'tradition' have 'seen' in my studies, is C) below:

I have decided to Follow Jesus?

A) Do I follow Him, and the doctrine He Spoke as The:

Humble Christ, on the earth, To Israel, 12 apostles, Under The Law/covenants
/Prophecy:

1) Repent (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!") or perish
(Luk 13:3,5 Mar 1:4 24:47)
+
2) believe the gospel of the kingdom (Mat 4:23, 9:35, 24:14; Mar 1:14,15)
+
3) be baptized "For the remission of sin" (Mar 1:4 Luk 3:3, 7:29:30, 24:47;
Act 2:38)
+
4) "show works meet for repentance" (Mat 3:8), because,
+
5) "to the twelve tribes of Israel," "faith Without works is dead"
(Jam 1:1, 2:17,26)
+
6) "keep the commandments" to "enter life" (Mat 19:17)
+
7) "one thing thou lackest...sell ALL/take up cross/follow Jesus"
(Mar 10:17-23)
+
8) pray as a watchman, for Great Tribulation, man of sin, son of perdition, and
signs of the end times, and Second Coming?

Do I follow His earthly prophecy program of covenants and law?
( OT, Mat - John, Heb - Rev ) or:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

B) Do I follow Him As The Risen And Glorified "Head Of His Church" and:

His Heavenly Grace Program, According To The Revelation Of The Mystery?
(His Doctrine in Romans - Philemon)

1) Have repentance toward God (change mind about sin/agree With God "it is Wrong!")
(Acts 20:21)
+
2) Have faith toward The LORD Jesus Christ (Acts 20:21), and trust/believe The Gospel
Of The Grace Of God: His Death, Burial, And Resurrection, According To The Scripture
(Ephesians 2:5-9; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4)
+
3) Acknowledge I am Spiritually Baptized By The ONE Baptism Of The Holy Spirit
Into The ONE (Spiritual Organism) Body Of Christ, Seated In the Heavenlies
(Ephesians 4:5; Colossians 2:12; Galatians 3:27; Romans 6:3-4; 1 Corinthians 12:13)
+
4) Acknowledge Christ Is Living in me, so I allow Him to, through me:
+
5) To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In ONE Word: ►► love ◄◄ thy neighbor
as thyself!" (Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)
+
6) Study God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided to show myself "Approved Unto God"
(2 Timothy 2:15), and all the rest of these Bible study Rules
+
7) Work with my hands to "give to them in need," and the LORD "shall supply all my need"
(Ephesians 4:28; 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12; 2 Thessalonians 3:10-12; 1 Timothy 5:8)
+
8) Be a humble prayer warrior and:
"...look, watch, and Patiently WAIT For..." = The LORD Jesus Christ!
(2 Thessalonians 2:1; Romans 8:18-19; Romans 8:23; Romans 8:25; 1 Corinthians 1:7;
Ephesians 6:12-18; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 4:1-3; 1 Thessalonians 1:10;
1 Thessalonians 5:5-11; Titus 2:13)
+
9) Put on the FULL armour of God and stand, in the spiritual warfare I wrestle with
(Ephesians 6:10-18)
+
10)
Eph 6:19 "And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I
may open my mouth boldly, to make known the Mystery Of The Gospel,"
+
11)
Eph 3:9 "And to make all men see what is the fellowship of The Mystery, which from the
beginning of the world hath been hid in God, Who created all things by Jesus Christ"
+
12) Acknowledge that I am going to give an account at Judgment (1 Corinthians 3:8-15;
Romans 14:12), at my Heavenly Home-Going ( Great GRACE Departure! )

According to these and all the details of God's Sound Doctrinal Blueprint In
Romans Through Philemon? (1 Timothy 1:10; 2 Timothy 4:3; Titus 1:9):

Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:

Or, this 'tradition'?:

C) Do I speak after following the Many, who homogenize A) + B) into
Massive Confusion?

Amen.

That’s a lot to take in. I suggest we take a specific bite at a time if you are serious about having an open discussion on these. Off the top of my head, I notice that Matthew 3:8, when put into context seems to address teachers, so I’m not sure of the point you are making.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

I don’t throw out their testimony as unreliable. I take it into consideration. They wrote about historical events which predated them - some by a few years, some by hundreds of years - and they wrote about what was happening in the church - local and regional - in their lifetimes.

To take only one, Polycarp was a disciple of John.

That church doctrine and practice evolved over time is documented in their writings.

I don’t even take it into consideration, but I’m an investigator. the disciple John warned about believing those taking the place of the disciples (John 5:24). In addition, 2 Peter is full of warnings about false teachers infiltrating the church.

do you have proof about your Polycarp claim? And by the way, when and where did John die?

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

John couldn't write? What about his gospel, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, and Revelation?

I would mention Peter also, but thre is doubt about who actually authored 1 Peter and 2 Peter,

I’m 100% with you. John was definitely an eyewitness and wrote those documents. I‘ve been working on 2 Peter and have some preliminary thoughts on who wrote it, but it it’s too early to share who and why.

 

[Gottservant]

I look at the stars and see evidence of Scripture there.

Ask the Holy Spirit.

 

[Matthias]

I don’t even take it into consideration, but I’m an investigator.

I worked as an investigator for many years (in the field of engineering). I took everything I could get my hands on into consideration. Many investigations were resolved by following up on information provided by individuals who weren’t eyewitnesses.

the disciple John warned about believing those taking the place of the disciples (John 5:24).

I don’t see a warning in the verse concerning those taking the place of the disciples.

In addition, 2 Peter is full of warnings about false teachers infiltrating the church.

Paul warned about it too. It was happening in their lifetimes and has continued to this day. It will go on happening until the end of this age.

do you have proof about your Polycarp claim?

All we have extant are the writings of others which assert that Polycarp was a disciple of John. Is there evidence which refutes those claims? If not, what would we use to support a denial of what was written about him?

And by the way, when and where did John die?

Scripture doesn’t provide that information. All that we have are the writings of early Christians which address it.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

I look at the stars and see evidence of Scripture there.

Ask the Holy Spirit.

I worked as an investigator for many years (in the field of engineering). I took everything I could get my hands on into consideration. Many investigations were resolved by following up on information provided by individuals who weren’t eyewitnesses.



I don’t see a warning in the verse concerning those taking the place of the disciples.



Paul warned about it too. It was happening in their lifetimes and has continued to this day. It will go on happening until the end of this age.



All we have extant are the writings of others which assert that Polycarp was a disciple of John. Is there evidence which refutes those claims? If not, what would we use to support a denial of what was written about him?



Scripture doesn’t provide that information. All that we have are the writings of early Christians which address it.

I don’t know what field of engineering you are in, but would you design a nuclear reactor, bridge, power system, or chemical processing unit based on data from people you never met and have no idea of their qualifications?

 

[Matthias]

I don’t know what field of engineering you are in…

Civil / Environmental.

… but would you design a nuclear reactor, bridge, power system, or chemical processing unit based on data from people you never met …

Yes. Part of my job was design preparation, plan review and construction inspection.

Part of my job was conducting criminal investigations. I used data obtained from eyewitnesses and from non-eyewitnesses to solve those cases. I used it when called upon to testify as a witness (normally for prosecuting attorneys, sometimes for defense attorneys and - in one unique case - for both the prosecution and the defense) in court.

... and have no idea of their qualifications?

I had a good idea of the qualifications of everyone I came into contact with, in all phases of my job.

We have an idea about the qualifications of those who wrote about the history.

P.S.

In my court testimony involving criminal cases, seldom was I an eyewitness to the crime that was committed at the time that the crime was committed. In the vast majority of those cases, there were no eyewitnesses to the crime as it was being committed other than the accused.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Chemical Engineer here and former Envinmental, Health, and Safety Manager at two chemical plants. I was also was the former Waste, Fraud, and Abuse Investigations Manager for a USA world renowned Nuclear Safety and Security Laboratory. I see things differently. I’ve researched the Gospel authors thoroughly and found that we don’t know anything about them except for a few lines in scripture that don’t provide any evidence for the claim made later by ‘early church fathers‘ who weren’t alive when the authors lived. The case for Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as Gospel authors is less than weak; it is pretty much non-existent.

I’m surprised that you, as an engineer involved in court cases, doesn’t find it strange that ALL records of the disciples deaths and the transition of the church to others is missing except for a few comments from some select church people who lived much later. It reeks of an early fraud. We are not talking about some willy nilly court case - we are talking about God’s presence on earth. My work proved that the authors were eyewitnesses of Jesus, that the Gospel is 100% valid and the truth, and that there was a wide-impacting fraud in the early church.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Now my investigation into prophecy is proving that about 2,600 and 2,000 years ago God predicted a major fraud to take place in the beginning church. God knew the evil minds of men who would choose to follow Satan rather than Jesus, and He chose his servants to document the future. We have seen most of the prophecy in the books of Daniel and a Revelation already come true. We await the eternal church that will be coming soon.

 

[Gottservant]

[...] We await the eternal church that will be coming soon.

Woah! Wait a minute, the Holy Spirit will rule the nations, nowhere is He expected to rule the World!

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Woah! Wait a minute, the Holy Spirit will rule the nations, nowhere is He expected to rule the World!

What scripture are you referencing? Just trying to understand your point….

 

[Matthias]

Chemical Engineer here and former Envinmental, Health, and Safety Manager at two chemical plants. I was also was the former Waste, Fraud, and Abuse Investigations Manager for a USA world renowned Nuclear Safety and Security Laboratory. I see things differently. I’ve researched the Gospel authors thoroughly and found that we don’t know anything about them except for a few lines in scripture that don’t provide any evidence for the claim made later by ‘early church fathers‘ who weren’t alive when the authors lived. The case for Matthew, Mark, and Luke, as Gospel authors is less than weak; it is pretty much non-existent.

Who then do you assert wrote those three Gospels?

I’m surprised that you, as an engineer involved in court cases, doesn’t find it strange that ALL records of the disciples deaths and the transition of the church to others is missing except for a few comments from some select church people who lived much later. It reeks of an early fraud. We are not talking about some willy nilly court case - we are talking about God’s presence on earth. My work proved that the authors were eyewitnesses of Jesus, that the Gospel is 100% valid and the truth, and that there was a wide-impacting fraud in the early church.

What do you assert was the motivation for their alleged fraudulent identification of the writers?

What is the impact of the alleged fraud?

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

Who then do you assert wrote those three Gospels?



What do you assert was the motivation for their alleged fraudulent action?

My study found that Nicodemus wrote Matthew, James the brother of John wrote Mark, and Silas was once again the scribe for Peter captured in the Gospel of Luke. The name changing was part of a fraud that false teachers committed to take over the church. The seeds of this movement were sown in the beginning church represented by what Jesus called, ”the synagogue of Satan,” described in Revelation chapters two and three. The church takeover is described by the third seal in Revelation that signifies people starving for the true words of Jesus. The black horse signifies death for those put their faith into this work-based religious organization rather than Jesus.

 

[Matthias]

My study found that Nicodemus wrote Matthew, James the brother of John wrote Mark, and Silas was once again the scribe for Peter captured in the Gospel of Luke. The name changing was part of a fraud that false teachers committed to take over the church.

When did the alleged name changing occur?

You commented that what is written in those three Gospels is true. How did the alleged name changing of the authors help false teachers take over the church?

The seeds of this movement were sown in the beginning church represented by what Jesus called, ”the synagogue of Satan,” described in Revelation chapters two and three. The church takeover is described by the third seal in Revelation that signifies people starving for the true words of Jesus. The black horse signifies death for those put their faith into this work-based religious organization rather than Jesus.

 

[Bibleinvestigations]

When did the alleged name changing occur?

You commented that what is written in those three Gospels is true. How did the alleged name changing of the authors help false teachers take over the church?

Daniel and Revelation prophecy tell us that the movement started at the very beginning of the church and spread fast. Think about what happened to all those false teachers during the time of Jesus. They surely didn’t leave the disciples and their followers in the fledgling church alone. These are people that for years wanted to kill Jesus then after they killed Jesus they killed Stephen, James, and many more. The apostles verify this in their writing. The details of the fraud are complex but I tried to explain it in a book I issued several months ago named The Gospel Naming Fraud.