Jesus has devised more than one way to bring people to him

[Patrick1966]

Stay in our KJV bibles folks.

One KJV verse says that Jesus saves ALL people. Another KJV verse says that Jesus sends some people to eternal punishment.

Which verse is correct? They can't both be correct.

 

[rwb]

One KJV verse says that Jesus saves ALL people. Another KJV verse says that Jesus sends to eternal punishment.

Which verse is correct? They can't both be correct.

Why cannot both be correct or truth? They are both correct and truth IF we don't read with a preconceived opinion to prove. Unfortunately, you repeatedly use verses out of context to try and prove your doctrine, rather than to prove what the Bible says is truth.

 

[marks]

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Angels did not die in Adam, only those who were "in Adam" died. And only those who are "in Christ" shall be made alive.

"so also"

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are making assumptions about the devices and what they are. So no I don't follow your logic here. God has an altar and sacrifices which were used in the old testament for salvation in likeness to the lamb of God or Christ. Those are more likely the devices he was referring to. Samuel is from the Old Testament during the time of animal sacrifice.

The quote is a snippet of a conversation concerning convincing David to bring back Absolom. It has nothing to do with doctrines of salvation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

It's dangerous to try and form a doctrine based on one scripture like that. Rather, that passage needs to be understood in light of other scriptures...the whole counsel of God.

This was quoting a woman who was put up by Joab to speak to King David regarding allowing Absolom to return to the palace. It has nothing to do with the doctrine of salvation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

People tend to forget that one possible outcome for judgment is mercy, which God is FULL of.

What will the one who expects us to love our enemies do with his own?
Incinerate them? Feel the love.

You put yourself on God's level?

I wouldn't!

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Gonna leave this to the Babelist, who had this thought, to build a name through building a tower to heaven.

Genesis 11
5 And the Lord came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the Lord said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have IMAGINED to do.

Imagining the word of God to grant wishes and say something IT DOESN'T, is a folly, same as the Tower.

FROM A BIBLE THUMPING, BIBLE BELIEVING, child of God; saved ONLY thru BELIEVING ON JESUS AND TURNING TO GOD THRU REPENTANCE, may darkness and blindness be removed from the eyes of their hearts and minds!

They refuse to point to Faith in Christ . They offer up the Broad path that leadeth unto destruction .
You did your duty dear sister . You just praise and thank the LORD .
The lambs are hearing truth dear sister . Some folks say those who dont believe JESUS is the Christ are fine .
JOHN said those who do so are anti Christ . JESUS himself preached the dire need to believe on HIM .
And what did HE tell those who heard and yet had not repented . IT will be worse for YOU than sodom on the day of judgment .
JESUS never taught universalism . HE TAUGHT you better BELIEVEINHIM ISM .
So the lambs will too . March on sister . The LORD is with the lambs .

 

[amigo de christo]

Universalism is a hallway to Hell.

A very broad way indeed . JESUS taught YE MUST BELIEVE IN HIM . JESUS said exactly what was gonna happen to those
who did not . And if it will be worse for you than even Sodom on the day of judgment sounds like a good thing
WELL , WOW is all i can say . Those who hear and refuse to believe the gospel , all i can to is shudder in total fear
for them . The road to the dark one is broad and very inclusive . The way TO GOD , IS IN CHRIST JESUS ALONE .

 

[Jack]

A very broad way indeed . JESUS taught YE MUST BELIEVE IN HIM . JESUS said exactly what was gonna happen to those
who did not . And if it will be worse for you than even Sodom on the day of judgment sounds like a good thing
WELL , WOW is all i can say . Those who hear and refuse to believe the gospel , all i can to is shudder in total fear
for them . The road to the dark one is broad and very inclusive . The way TO GOD , IS IN CHRIST JESUS ALONE .

Mt 7 Narrow is the way that leads to life and FEW there be who find it.

 

[Lizbeth]

This was quoting a woman who was put up by Joab to speak to King David regarding allowing Absolom to return to the palace. It has nothing to do with the doctrine of salvation.

Much love!

In my opinion she was speaking truth, and it is a beautiful example of intercession that we can learn from.

 

[marks]

In my opinion she was speaking truth, and it is a beautiful example of intercession that we can learn from.

I don't believe this passage is given to teach us that there are multiple ways to the Father. I see it the plea of a woman on behalf of a man on behalf of a kingdom to restore the heir apparent, but not a teaching of our redemption in Christ.

Much love!

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Does the Bible tell you that Jesus died to save us from God?

Haven't you read/heard that our God is a consuming fire?

Rom 5:8

But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Does that mean that you AGREE that Jesus died to save us from God? - LOL
It makes little sense. What's the point?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
People tend to forget that one possible outcome for judgment is mercy, which God is FULL of.
What will the one who expects us to love our enemies do with his own?
Incinerate them? Feel the love.

You put yourself on God's level?

I wouldn't!

Much love!

You put God BELOW our level. Which is worse?
Besides, we have the mind of Christ.
Maybe we should USE it.

 

[marks]

You put God BELOW our level. Which is worse?

That's just another way of making yourself the judge of God. Don't compare Him to us.

There is a way that seems right to a man, but the end of it is death.

Much love!

 

[Patrick1966]

Most Christians, especially most of the Christians here, view Jesus as an inept, incapable, unforgiving, hateful, clown. It's fascinating, actually.

 

[Lambano]

Please tell us more about how Jesus uses the Lake of Fire.

Since you also asked Lady T the same question in another thread, I will respond:

Revelations describes the Lake of Fire as "the Second Death". I understand "Death" as "the end of life". This understanding is consistent with Jesus's use of the Gehenna imagery, which refers to the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem, which was used for child sacrifice and later for burning garbage, human waste, and animal corpses. It also preserves the view of God's character as merciful (if stern), and not a sadist or a monster.

With the above imagery of death and destruction, I cannot view the Lake of Fire as rehabilitative. Instead, the eschatological model I have proposed (back in post #55) speculates that time spent in Hades between death and resurrection and judgment may be purgatorial in nature. It is based solely on Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and his description of the Rich Man's torment in Hades (and noting that Jesus did NOT use the term "Gehenna"). With no other Biblical attestation (though historically, parts of the Church have believed in Purgatory), this part is (in my assessment) is the weakest link in the proposal. (And the reason I consider it "improbable".) Those who do not change will experience a Second and final Death at the final Judgment, when Death and Hades are also destroyed. I believe this is consistent with the narrative in Revelation, it is consistent with Jesus's statement that body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna, it is consistent with the use of the terms "Abaddon" and "Apoleia" (Hebrew and Greek for "the place of Destruction"; see Proverbs 15:11 and Acts 8:20), and most important, it maintains the seriousness of the multitude of warnings given throughout the Biblical record while leaving room for God's mercy.

I hope I have given a cogent explanation as to the reasons why I believe this MAY be true. Perhaps others may find the thought processes themselves to be useful in other pursuing other directions. Whether anyone else believes it is irrelevant.

 

[Jack]

Death never means "cease to exist" in the Bible.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Many will certainly wish they "ceased to exist"!

 

[Patrick1966]

Since you also asked Lady T the same question in another thread, I will respond:

Revelations describes the Lake of Fire as "the Second Death". I understand "Death" as "the end of life". This understanding is consistent with Jesus's use of the Gehenna imagery, which refers to the Valley of Hinnom outside of Jerusalem, which was used for child sacrifice and later for burning garbage, human waste, and animal corpses. It also preserves the view of God's character as merciful (if stern), and not a sadist or a monster.

With the above imagery of death and destruction, I cannot view the Lake of Fire as rehabilitative. Instead, the eschatological model I have proposed (back in post #55) speculates that time spent in Hades between death and resurrection and judgment may be purgatorial in nature. It is based solely on Jesus's parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man and his description of the Rich Man's torment in Hades (and noting that Jesus did NOT use the term "Gehenna"). With no other Biblical attestation (though historically, parts of the Church have believed in Purgatory), this part is (in my assessment) is the weakest link in the proposal. (And the reason I consider it "improbable".) Those who do not change will experience a Second and final Death at the final Judgment, when Death and Hades are also destroyed. I believe this is consistent with the narrative in Revelation, it is consistent with Jesus's statement that body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna, it is consistent with the use of the terms "Abaddon" and "Apoleia" (Hebrew and Greek for "the place of Destruction"; see Proverbs 15:11 and Acts 8:20), and most important, it maintains the seriousness of the multitude of warnings given throughout the Biblical record while leaving room for God's mercy.

I hope I have given a cogent explanation as to the reasons why I believe this MAY be true. Perhaps others may find the thought processes themselves to be useful in other pursuing other directions. Whether anyone else believes it is irrelevant.

I appreciate you taking your time to share your well-spoken understanding and belief.

But how does the concept of eternal punishment reconcile with 1 Timothy 4:10 which says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people? To me, this verse and many others are very problematic for the theology of eternal punishment.

 

[Lambano]

10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The usual answer to that argument is that the devil and his angels are immortal beings. Mankind is not immortal, and there are plenty of Biblical references to back that up. So let's retire that argument.

In any case, I have a limited amount of compassion, and I'll not waste any Sympathy for the Devil.

Please allow me to introduce myself,
I'm a man of wealth and taste.
I've been around for a long, long year;
Stole many a man's soul an' faith.
I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain;
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate.
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name.
But what's puzzlin' you
Is the nature of my game.

 

[Jack]

I appreciate you taking your time to share your well-spoken understanding and belief.

But how does the concept of eternal punishment reconcile with 1 Timothy 4:10 which says that Jesus is the savior of ALL people? To me, this verse and many others are very problematic for the theology of eternal punishment.

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe Jesus. Guess Who said this.

Luke 16
19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. 20 But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, 21 desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented.