Inconsistency of teaching faith without works

[Eternally Grateful]

This is not what James 2 is teaching, but let's go with it.

If we say we have faith, and have not works, then we have no faith.

which is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

We are saved by grace tHROUGH FAITH Not of works. Period

why do you think you can’t save yourself my friend??

 

[marks]

Again i would study Gal 3

That was our morning reading today, and I thought of this thread as we read,

Galatians 3:10-12 KJV
10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

This answers the thread fully.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Teaching faith without works, as the only Bible means of salvation and justification, is found to be inconsistent when teaching about faith and works.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

One the one hand, the words of Ephesians 2 are believed and taken literally, so that we can only be saved by, with, and through the means of grace.

But on the other hand, the same words of James 2 are not believed and taken literally, so that we cannot be justified only by, with, and through the means of works.

If we are not justified by works, then neither are we justified by grace. If being justified by works, does not mean with works, then being saved by grace, does not mean with grace.

In Daniel 7, the one speaking things against God, thinks to change times and laws. He thinks to change the very nature of things in this life. That certainly includes the natural meaning of words and numbers.

The inconsistency of teaching faith without works in the Bible, can only be done by changing the meaning of words from one verse to the next. The same words themselves are applauded in one place, but spoken against in another place.

Consistent Bible teaching is obvious, because it's just repeating the words with the same faith and literacy in both places.

We are saved by grace, and we are justified by works.

Works are the result of being saved and not the means to being saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[ChristisGod]

That was our morning reading today, and I thouhgt of this thread as we read,

Galatians 3:10-12 KJV
10) For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

This answers the thread fully.

Much love!

Ditto !

 

[Ghada]

I've refuted it a few times, and now you play word games.

I'd hoped for a more serious discussion.

Much love!

I went back to make sure I didn't miss anything. Since you are not disciplined in formal debate, then you do not understand that repeating ourselves, while not responding to any specific point of the challenge, is not a refute, but a concession to the argument. You might want to go online and learn about formal debate rules.

As it stands, James 2 is speaking specifically of God's justifying us by works, just as with Abraham and Rahab.

The attempt to have James 2 teaching us to be justified by men by shows of works, is not what God is commanding. That's not possible in the Bible, because God's Son specifically rebukes seeking justification of men by show of works.

But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

By saying James 2 is teaching about how shows of our works justifies us with men, but not with God, and condemning those who do not with dead faith, then it is being taught to Christians, that we ought to seek that justification and honor that is of men only, and not by God.

We are seeing here how once Bible teaching is refused for our own doctrine, which in this case is justification of God without works, that all manner of our own teaching must be inserted into the Bible, so that the Lord's own words condemn our opposition.

I receive not honour from men.

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

 

[Ghada]

Works are the result of being saved and not the means to being saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Then grace is a result of being saved and not the means of being saved.

As the first arguments of the thread say, if we change what 'by works' means, then we must also change what 'by grace' means. Otherwise, like the notable one in Daniel 7, we are trying to change meaning of things, in order to change the Bible, in order to teach something of our own.

If we are saved by grace, it is by means of grace. If we are justified by works, it is by means of works.

 

[marks]

Since you are not disciplined in formal debate, then you do not understand that repeating ourselves, while not responding to any specific point of the challenge, is not a refute, but a concession to the argument. You might want to go online and learn about formal debate rules.

IF this were a real debate, you'd respond to my content, instead of ignoring it, then later claiming to respond. Your mischaracterization here is simply a denial of what was posted.

There's no honesty here, which speaks poorly for someone who hopes to be saved because they did what was right.

Much love!

 

[marks]

As it stands, James 2 is speaking specifically of God's justifying us by works, just as with Abraham and Rahab.

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Not God, others.

Galatians 3:11-12 KJV
11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12) And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

You can acknowledge this or not acknowledge this, that's your choice.

Much love!

 

[ChristisGod]

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Then grace is a result of being saved and not the means of being saved.

As the first arguments of the thread say, if we change what 'by works' means, then we must also change what 'by grace' means. Otherwise, like the notable one in Daniel 7, we are trying to change meaning of things, in order to change the Bible, in order to teach something of our own.

If we are saved by grace, it is by means of grace. If we are justified by works, it is by means of works.

I agree with your last sentence.

 

[Ghada]

James 2 does not appose my belief, I interpret it in a way in which it agrees with all of sctripture

With all Scripture you also corrupt in order to reject and change James 2 into something it is not.

I don't really personally care about peoples' own faiths and doctrines. It's only when they claim it is the Bible, and it is not, that I defend the Bible by showing the simple difference.

James 2 says a man is justified by works. You say a man is not justified by works.

You say James 2 is speaking of works justifying us with men only, and James 2 speaks of being justified with God by works, as exampled by Abraham and Rahab.

James said show ME your works.

True. And James 2 says God justified Abraham and Rahab when they showed Him their works. Their justification with God is made examples to all believers in Jesus Christ.

Some Christians do so by the faith of Jesus, and others refuse to do so, and trust in their own faith alone to save and justify themselves.

Abraham was saved decades before he offered his son.. His faith saved him, His faith however was not dead. Proven by the fact he did works..

In James 2, Abraham and Rahab were justified with God by works.

You say no. Your justification by God without works is not that of the Bible.

You are welcome to it and can live by it, and have a fairly good life in this world, but all such faiths, doctrines, and religions end in the grave.

Only the judgement of our works that God justifies by Jesus Christ, will be rewarded with resurrection unto life.

Romans 4 says the excat opposite of james 2. You have to interpret those passages so they agree, not contradict.

And here is acknowledgment of believing the Bible contradicts itself.

For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

The Bible never contradicts itself. We do not judge any words of the Bible in order to agree with us. Only unbelievers in all the words of the Bible say it contradicts itself, because some of the words don't agree with us.

Teachers of other Christian faiths and doctrines, such as being justified by faith alone without works, that read any words of the Bible that contradicts them, they refuse the correction. Instead they change parts of the Bible to be more to their liking.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

With all Scripture you also corrupt in order to reject and change James 2 into something it is not.

I don't really personally care about peoples' own faiths and doctrines. It's only when they claim it is the Bible, and it is not, that I defend the Bible by showing the simple difference.

James 2 says a man is justified by works. You say a man is not justified by works.

Paul (romans 4) says we are not justified by works

Paul says we are not saved by works.

James is the only one who says with works.. But you refuse to look at to why James said it.

You say James 2 is speaking of works justifying us with men only, and James 2 speaks of being justified with God by works, as exampled by Abraham and Rahab.

Actually James said that,, I will show you my faith by my works, You show me your faith!!!

 

[Ghada]

Salvation PERIOD..

Your not partially saved your either saved or your not

The Bible teaches we are either being saved by Jesus faith in the heart, and justified by works through Him, or we are not.

And only those being saved and justified unto the end, shall obtain the reward of eternal salvation by resurrection unto life. (2 Tim 2:10)(Col 3:23-25) (Heb 5:9)(1 Peter 1:6-9)

Then your saved by works..

The Bible teaches saved by grace through means of grace, and justified by works through means of works.

This is irrefutable sense of the Bible, that no one has even addressed, much less show any error in it. Trying to change use and meanings of words, is what the notable horn does against God's word.

 

[Ghada]

You better be perfect..

True. No one without a perfect heart toward God and holy blameless living in Christ, will be rewarded with the inheritance of the saints in light at the resurrection of the dead.

You claim being saved by faith alone and justified by works, and not being perfect and blameless with God.

You can trust in that unto the end of this life, but it's only condemnation of ones' own filthy living.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is Bible doctrine of being perfect before God with holy and blameless works through Christ Jesus. The gospel of Jesus Christ is the promise of being born again that way all at once, and continuing to grow that way unto the end.

The imperfect Christian gospel of being converted with continued filthiness and only growing less filthy in life, is not the newborn salvation of Jesus Christ. The unclean conversion of certain Christian religion never preaches ever being perfectly purified and new, with all things now being of God.

Paul asled the galations church if they were fools thinking the exact same way you do. That we are saved initially by the spirit. But must perfect it in th flesh (works)

The Bible teaches being made perfect with God instantly when receiving Christ, so that all things are now new and of God. The Bible teaches being justified with God by growing in His new purity and bond of perfectness in love with God. (Col 3:14)

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Receiving a Christ and unclean conversion with continued filthiness of life, to walk less filthily than before, is not the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The Bible teaches we are either being saved by Jesus faith in the heart, and justified by works through Him, or we are not.

And only those being saved and justified unto the end, shall obtain the reward of eternal salvation by resurrection unto life. (2 Tim 2:10)(Col 3:23-25) (Heb 5:9)(1 Peter 1:6-9)


The Bible teaches saved by grace through means of grace, and justified by works through means of works.

This is irrefutable sense of the Bible, that no one has even addressed, much less show any error in it. Trying to change use and meanings of words, is what the notable horn does against God's word.

good luck trying to save yourself

 

[Ghada]

which is EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

Then you agree:

If we say we have faith, and have not works, then we have no faith.

If we say we have justification, and do not justly, then we have no justification.

If we say we have righteousness, and do not righteousness, then we have no righteousness.

No man has any righteousness of God by faith alone, without doing His righteousness.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Then you agree:

If we say we have faith, and have not works, then we have no faith.

If we say we have justification, and do not justly, then we have no justification.

If we say we have righteousness, and do not righteousness, then we have no righteousness.

No man has any righteousness of God by faith alone, without doing His righteousness.

Wrong

A man is made righteous by faith in God. He is perfected forever.

He is then a work in progress as he is sanctified in his daily walk.

he will never be totally righteous in his deeds until he is glorified.

 

[Ghada]

Works are the result of being saved and not the means to being saved.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

If being justified by works is not the means to being justified, then being saved by grace is not the means to being saved.

Those who reject being justified by works in James 2, change the meaning of words in the Bible, in order to preach their own justification without works, by their own faith alone.

 

[Ghada]

IF this were a real debate, you'd respond to my content, instead of ignoring it, then later claiming to respond. Your mischaracterization here is simply a denial of what was posted.

There's no honesty here, which speaks poorly for someone who hopes to be saved because they did what was right.

Much love!

Since we both believe the other is disingenuous, then let's try to keep it simple with one point at a time.

You have taught that the justification by works in James 2 is with men alone. I have responded that the justification by works in James 2 is with God, where Abraham and Rahab examples.

How do you respond in turn.

 

[Ghada]

James 2:18 KJV
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Not God, others.

James 2 at this point says nothing of being justified by works, but of justifying our claim of faith by works. But I do accept the contextual conclusion, that men are more justified with other men in their faith by works, and not by faith alone.

And this is only part of James 2. Let's go on to the rest.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar.

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

This speaks specifically now of man being justified by works. And it is where God is the One justifying Abraham by works, so that God calls him the Friend of God. God does not call him a friend of men by his justified works.

And so, If our works are justified by men in the first part of James 2, then more importantly our works are justified by God at the conclusion of James 2.

We can therefore teach that James 2 uses the common fact, that men are justified with men by works, and not by faith alone, in order to teach that men are also Justified with God by works, and not by faith only, even as with Abraham and Rahab.

You can acknowledge this or not acknowledge this, that's your choice.

Much love!

No problem. This is an exchange that can be fruitful.



Your turn.

 

[Ghada]

I agree with your last sentence.

I must say I am glad. For a while I thought I was the only one with basic reading and comprehension skills.

I do believe that a major source for trying to change the Bible into something else, is when we don't take God's words as seriously as we would any other author of a book. I believe part of that reason is that since God is Spirit, many men think He can't talk to us plainly with our own words.

It's like we think God is only trying to communicate something spiritual by our words, so that we can change them around and preach something we think is more spiritual, rather than just teach what is said as being meant that way.